T Nation

Leg Routine Critique


#1

Hi guys, i've just started a split routine and wondered if you could all take a look at my current leg workout.

all exercises are 4x8 except goblet squats which are 3x10, and those of you wondering where the deadlifts are, i do them on my back day.

squats
seated leg curl
standing calf raises (smith machine)
reverse lunge (DBs)
kneeling leg curls
goblet squats

i was wondering about adding single leg leg press but not sure if that would be too much?
thanks in advance


#2

i would drop the leg curls (both of them) and do glute/ham raises. much better for the knees. and if you feel you need more hammie work do some box squats.

i also would not do the leg press of any sort. if you want some unilateral leg work try step ups or pistols.

as for whether it is too much or not that depends on your work capacity, eating habits, stress level, and sleep patterns. you can increase your work capacity over time and improve your eating. even decrease stress. but you can only sleep so much. so if you cannot do it all now, maybe you can later once your work capacity has gone up. say in a few months or years.


#3

thanks for the reply

only problem is my gym doesn't have a station for glute/ham raises. any other ideas for exercises that really hit the hammies? (aside from box squats)


#4

i do these a lot:
exrx.net/WeightExercises/Hamstrings/BWBallLegCurl.html

when i had access to a cable machine i would do a variation on these where i would do more of a bicycle type motion.
exrx.net/WeightExercises/Hamstrings/CBStandingLegCurl.html

if you are doing romainian deadlifts, goodmornings, stiff legged deads, etc., you will and can hammer them hammies in a safe manner and quite hard IMO.


#5

box squats, front squats, goodmornings, lying legcurl, calfraises


#6

Man what are your goals that you chose 8x4 for everything?

Not sure why you're saying kneeling leg curls but not hammies when the only thing I can imagine being a "kneeling leg curl" would be just that?

What does your back day look like?


#7

Right, lets throw a tool out of the toolbox, and for what? Some arbitrary suggestion from some faceless dude on the internet. GREAT IDEA!

OP, do the fucking leg presses, if you can recover and they help make your legs bigger and stronger then keep doing them. If not, drop them. Leg presses have helped build quite a few sets of large legs. Quite a few people include them for a reason.


#8

i like leg press :slight_smile:

caveman, i cant imagine you get much quad stimulus from that kinda routine mate? ur hams are brutal though haha


#9

im sure i'll get bashed for this, but here goes....

i will use someone world reknowned as an expert on spinal biomechanics, dr stuart mcgill. he has proven repeatedly that the leg press is horrible for the lumbar region of the spine. and dr robin mckenzie's research has shown the same. these are the 2 most experienced researchers on the spine and their research has been done over nearly 40 years. if thats not good enough then nothing is.

FYI - dr mcgill recommends that any athlete never use a machine to push iron. and again if a world reknown expert is not good enough then nothing will be. and i have nothing more to say on the subject.


#10

Thank god, because you sound like someone who shouldn't be parroting everything he reads and fucking up other people's progress in the process.

The countless, and I mean countless people who leg press regularly and aren't paraplegic leads me to believe they aren't that bad. God damn, even Lyle recommends them, and he is pretty "anti-broscience."

Conclusion 1: like every lift in the world, if you can do it safely and it helps you reach your goal, do it. If you can't do it safely, don't do it.

Conclusion 2: people need to be much more careful before they toss out blanket statements on the internet, because they read one whole book about it.


#11

What does your progression look like? Are you using 4*8 with a random weight or are you picking a specific weight?

I think it's been asked already but what are your goals? Lift selection should be based on your goals. So pick each lift with your goal in mind.

james


#12

i am curious. why should i not be parroting everything i read? what if it comes from peer reviewed research? what if it comes from the worlds elite on human anatomy and the coaching of world class athletes? and if i cannnot learn from the that elite, who do i learn from. as i last checked elite was defined as:
a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group

so i should not parrot the elite, then i should not learn from nor quote person[s] that exercise a major share of authority or influence. sounds kind of subpar to me.

but i hold to my statement and the science behind it. unless someone can show how the science is wrong. then i shall admit my missinformation as i have had to do before while learning about various subjects in my life. and that is what it is, learning. i want to learn so educate me please.


#13

Try them band resisted and they become simply brutal for the glute-ham tie in area.


#14

The real world doesn't exist in a controlled sterile laboratory. And science is not a perfect oracle that tells all. It's subject to error, even the experts. For how long did the 'experts' say that dietary cholesterol was bad for you? Do you see my point?


#15

Lets not forget that he isn't as intelligent nor trained like the people he is parroting. So, rather than see people as individuals and understand the specific situation, he reads a book and suddenly thinks everyone in the world needs to drop leg press.

Reminds me of every Junior in college through their first year in the real world. They think they know everything and are smarter than everyone because they had a good GPA and read all the texts. But then they can't roll cash when it counts, you know in the real world...

Some people need to lift more and read a bit less. I don't give a shit how much science you can link and post about. If you are a small weak little bitch that gives out shit advice, then you don't really know jack shit then do you? If you can't apply your "knowledge" then you don't have any.


#16

asooneyeonig has been giving out terrible advice in the beginner's forum for quite some time now.. I'm surprised nobody has jumped on him like HaveIronWillLift or BunnyBench (to name some recent examples)..


#17

So a beginner asks a question about his leg training and the post gets hijacked into an argument between two complete strangers (with a random comment thrown in by a third). How is this helping the OP out?

OP, I would just think of what your goals are and pick your lifts and progression accordingly. There were some great articles listed early on that are well worth reading.

james


#18

as for cholesterol it has been known for nearly 100 years that dietary cholesterol has little effect on blood serum cholesterol levels. ansel keys who was very good at PR and marketing that pushed the idea that eating fat makes you fat and eating more cholesterol increases cholesterol. the science that was used to show it has not shown it to be true without ignoring most of the results. but once the media got a hold of the idea of the keys theories that was the end of facts for the public.

there is a book called good calories, bad calories, that references several thousand research articles that show that dietary cholesterol has little to no effect on cholesterol levels. these studies include hundreds of thousands of people over a span of nearly 100 years. that sounds pretty legit to me. especially when the results are accurately repeated in multiple studies.

so your point is not quite accurate. here is a more accurate one. louie simmons gym, you know the one. the one that has produced some of the strongest powerlifters in the world. guess where he got his knowledge, science. do you know where that science came from? coaches that trained athletes, mainly from eastern block countries decades ago. and they were some of the strongest people in the world. i have learned much from reading articles by louie simmons and getting the same material that he learned from. guys like zatsiorsky and bompa. they produced the science to back and trained the athletes and both proved they were right.

so should i ignore all of what they have learned? should we all ban every book ever written by an expert on fitness? should we bash jim wendler cause he wrote a book and big meatheads dont need no books, they be the devils work. should we all just learn by ourselves in a tiny microcosm without any outside input. everyone proves here that they do not by coming to this forum. to either help or to learn. and they need to read to do that. but i see reading is bad on here. kind of an oxymoronic situation isnt it.

i have seen people at times use the real world does not exist in a sterile environment argument and its a good one. probably one of the best ones i have run across. that is when i use my above example with eastern block coaches, that just happen to be scientists as well. they proved their knowledge not only in a lab but in real world applications.

i try to do the same thing with other science i reference. for example, the reference i made earlier about dr mcgill's research. well he not only is a scientist he helps to rehab the most extreme spinal injuries and many of them are world class athletes. i remembering reading how one olympic lifter, whos name i do not remember, had a back injury. the athlete went on after breaking several vertebrae to compete on the world level again. so he has also shown via science and with training people that his knowledge is very good.

i have learned the hard way that a lot of research is mediocre at best and measures things at times that are only a small part of the whole picture. especially when it comes to exercise. i have a trainer friend that has a masters in kinesiological science and has done some lab work taught me a very valuable lesson. that there is a science and an art form to training. science can tell what mechanisms you will get a response from with certain sets and reps at a certain intensity. it cant tell you how to put it together. that takes experience. he humbled me many times buy showing me that i knew the science but did not know how to put it all together. he also helped me with that aspect of training. he did that instead of calling me names, telling me i was weak, etc. he decided it was better to educate.

so i ask that of people that say i am wrong, educate me. if i am wrong it should be easy to show me. calling me names and calling me weak does not change my knowledge. and i would like to learn more and i know there is a lot more to learn. so please, tell me how i am wrong so i can know and better help others.


#19

then i humbly ask to be corrected. i cant seem to read books and parrot some experts of elites in the field of exercise. so i come to you guys. tell me what i need to know.


#20

well i know i dont know everything. i never claimed to. so that part of your statement is wrong. unless you can show us all where i claimed to know everything.

another part where your example is wrong, i was an athletic trainer for 9 years. i trained hundreds on one on one sessions and thousands in seminars that i ran for years. so i gained experience that is far greater then someone only training themselves. i applied what i had learn successfully to others. just like other great coaches that i learned from. and i did succeed. i made a living as a trainer for nearly a decade. that does not go along with your example at all. i proved my worth.

as for the advice to stop learning, then what are trainers for but to know more then others? how does one become a trainer without learning? and yes the great trainers not only learn but apply. and i have applied to many. so what else do i need to do. i cant read books like other great athletes and trainers. i cant show my experience with other peoples results like other great coaches. are we reduced to a bro-science argument of i'm bigger so im better. reminds me of a school yard brawl with a bully.

and what does it all do in the end. well if this is like any other e-penis measuring match i have been in over the years on forums, nothing. and its sad it almost always happens while a thread gets hijacked from someone asking a question for help. he asked a question and i tried to help. if i am incorrect in my information than think of me asking the question, why am i wrong and answer it. it will go far further to helping me, helping the OP, and anyone else reading this thread.

so the choice is yours. help me learn from your knowledge and experience or go back to calling me weak, a parrot, or what ever else it is that you want to say about me. if you cant show that i am wrong then am i wrong.