Left, Right, No In Between

I agree with this at least to the extent of I would rather have immigrants than true racists. Of course neither are actually going anywhere.

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What do you guys think the general cost or benefit of an immigrant is on average?

It’s always been this way to an extent. Personally I think it took a big turn for the worse when Republicans said their top priority was making the president a one term one. As far as I know at that point in a presidency it was unprecedented. That set us on a path of not even pretending to want to be bipartisan. Now it’s the norm for both sides.

Also the internet makes it worse as it gives a voice to the crazies on both sides.

I’m not sure how we could begin to try to quantify. I’m not sure if he was talking about only illegals or whatever when he said immigrant. My guess would be he’s a descendant of an immigrant although I just skimmed some of the stuff.

America could survive without the die hard racists. We couldn’t without immigrants (again depending on people’s definition).

I just heard about a study that said we should think about immigrants as a economic benefit when looking long term. Meaning they on average pay more in taxes then they receive in benefits and result in an increase in GDP.

I have a feeling that the most staunch anti immigrant folks see them as an overall cost. I think data can show this to not be true, and if that’s true people’s views would change if they are rational (I don’t think I would clarify most people as rational though).

From what I can tell most western countries could easily survive without mass immigration. America has approximately 330 million people, why does it need more?
Manufacturing, farming etc need less actual workers than ever due to technology. We have plenty of our own low, medium and high skilled workers, most of them are overqualified for the jobs they actually do. Many companies went offshore for cheap labour, or contract that work out to third world countries. They don’t care about the workers of their own countries let alone those in the third world.

The drive for immigration is not that they are needed for work, its that multinationals want to expand the amount of consumers.

The amount of skilled migration that is really needed is quite small. It can usually be remedied within 5 years at the most with training your own citizens.There is also a problem especially in the third world or developing countries, of Dr’s, engineers, etc going to first world countries for work, leaving their own countries sorely undermanned.

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There seems to be just as many studies around that say how many non skilled immigrants(refugees esp) never get off welfare, so they don’t pay much if any tax, and are a drain on welfare and public institutions like schools, hospitals, and prisons. I’m not sure about studies in the US, but definitively in Europe and UK.

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America wouldn’t exist without immigration. And given the large number of fat asses, addicts of all types, a new generation that has an attention span of seconds, we’ll need to bring in people who can appreciate the opportunities here and have the work ethic and values to take advantage of them.

People get older and immigrants not only built this country to be where it is they continue to assist. Not every one of those people is able to do certain jobs and these people are already doing ones no one else will do. That’s why they are here. Don’t get mad at them as individuals get mad at the people who exploit them for their own profit.

Whose going to work in western Kansas feedlots and on the farm? Whose lining up to work these shit ass jobs immigrants are currently doing. And that’s leaving out the massive benefits of highly educated and skilled immigrants. One of these people may have helped with the device youre using to post on and one may save your life in the ER.

I’m not for open borders or having no immigrant policy but the idea that we aren’t getting big benefits isn’t based in reality imo.

Yes, you missed it, it is a thing.

Canada was (or maybe still is, at least the news doesn’t report it anymore) letting anyone in from the US as long as they didn’t cross at an official border crossing. As a result, there became a huge backlog of immigration/refugee hearings and people were getting welfare, free healthcare, and refugee benefits that can be several thousand a month.

Overall, things have just become more polarized, but it seems like a large part of the problem is the left pushing things to the extreme. Remember when Obama said he was against gay marriage? Now he would be called all sorts of bad names, and now that anything homosexual is protected by law they have moved onto transsexuals. Also the Canadian supreme court legalized non-penetrative bestiality. Things are fucked up. The right wing isn’t totally innocent either, but my take is that it’s mostly a push back against extreme leftism.

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…just joking, please no…

Yeah I also remember when Trump was pro choice. Politicians change to get elected. Who gives an actual flying fuck about transsexuals? You’ve already pissed with one of them and they pose no danger if they use the same restroom as you.

Based on what? You’re argument is that the right is fucking up because the left is extreme. That doesn’t make much sense and sounds like a right wing talking point “we only bad cause they super bad!”

Someone’s getting benefits from mass immigration and its not your average citizen.
More competition for jobs, housing, infrastructure like roads, hospitals and schools
When is enough people enough?
Whose going to work the feedlots of Kansas? How about Kansas locals, don’t tell me there aren’t any young people able to do the work there? Maybe they don’t want to because they are in debt from their uni degrees, and know working for minimum wage or below isn’t going to pay it back. Farmers aren’t blameless either, they are happy to pay less for illegal immigrants to pick the crops, and process it. Local people can’t live off those wages unless they have a partner who is prepared to work the same job as well, so effectively it takes 2 people to earn the same amount as a regular citizen job.
Same again for housing. Its not uncommon for several immigrant families to live in a house designed for one family. That my friend is a tangible drop in the standard of living.

Here in Australia many farmers(corporate industrial farms as well as family owned ones) won’t pay enough of a wage for seasonal work like picking crops. They also charge for accommodation on the farm whilst you work for them. No locals can afford to work under these conditions.
The farmers get around it by legally importing migrants from 3rd world countries.These workers return to their home countries at the end of the season. They don’t have enough money to live in Australia, but the meagre wages go a lot further in their homelands.
Farmers also get around paying full wages by using backpackers and having the government give incentives like extending visa lengths for so called working holidays. Either way it amounts to exploitation of these people, as they don’t get paid a living wage, and undercut a young local from working in the industry.

What exactly are the benefits that we all get from continued mass immigration, into our nations? I can’t see any. A few insanely rich people get richer, and it doesn’t trickle down very far, to many people at all.


I don’t think we have mass immigration here. And I would say average citizens have got plenty of benefits from them.

Good question. Maybe at some point? Why didn’t we stop a long time ago? Why ever let anyone in a country?

Kansas locals won’t work those jobs and it has nothing to do with college. Kansas farmers and politicians fought against a bill because it would end their businesses out west. I’ve been to a lot of places that have jobs that you won’t find the average American doing. Emporia, Garden City, many others places in Kansas have businesses that would fold up immediately if we ended immigration. I would assume food is pretty beneficial to the average citizen. That’s going to be impacted in a hurry.

I can’t speak for Australia because I don’t know anything about it but I do know about America and the dirty secret is all the guys telling everyone we need to build a wall are the ones who have been profiting from those people all along. They don’t actually want to build a wall they just need the uneducated to have someone to blame so they don’t blame the super rich and powerful.

You could well be right about not having mass immigration in the USA at the moment, unlike many parts of Europe, UK, and Australia and Canada. You definitely do have problems with illegal immigration though.

What are the benefits that average citizens have got though in recent times? (I’m sure there are benefits when done in a controlled manner) Historically when a nation is being built, there are definite benefits to immigration when building infrastructure.

So when there is a genuine need, that is to the benefit to the majority of the citizens, and not undercut them or their standards of living then immigration is good.
The question as to why local people aren’t doing certain jobs, doesn’t come down to there not being enough local people to fill them. Its about a living wage. That’s becoming a big problem in western societies. The wealth is becoming concentrated in the hands of fewer individuals, not evenly spread out.
There is probably a lot of truth about your comment regarding the dirty secret, about building the wall in America. Even so a wall if built would definitely help deal with illegal immigration.

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Just to add in the discussion of immigrants working, there’s a few plants around here where you will only find (primarily) Somali and Mexican workers. No Americans, besides a few poor whites/Native’s with zero education and criminal records. We have plenty of young people around, they just don’t want to work that hard.

My dad is a mason, and the company he used to work had to start hiring Mexicans as laborers because they needed them and again, no young people wanted to do that kind of job. My dad, who judges a person more on character rather than anything else, and can be suspicious of newcomers, says he loves the Mexicans. They’re fantastic workers and have much better attitudes than the occasional American high schooler who quits after two weeks.

Obviously this is a n=1 situation, just throwing it out there. America has people, but they’re getting lazier.

Would also include that while the anti immigration folks in my area are focused on African Muslims and Latinos, the ones who are busted for selling drugs and killing people the most are the lighter skinned, more Christian than any other religion, Karen people from Myanmar and surrounding countries. That’s not to say they’re all bad - I play soccer and go to church with some very “good” ones, but I just think it’s interesting how people focus on the darker skinned immigrants with “dangerous” religions when they’re not always the most troublesome.

EDIT: for what it matters, I’m Native American/Christian/located in South Dakota. No extreme political leanings…pretty close to the center but probably slightly right. I have “progressive” views regarding racial issues and mental health/addiction, but pretty traditional/conservative views in most every other aspect.

More anecdotal evidence on how “lazy” Americans are-

Found this article within a minute. I remember seeing many more like it during 2016 and earlier.

I recall reading that the CA agricultural industry will collapse if illegal immigrants were actually deported en masse.

The problem is that unemployed Americans don’t want the job, even when it pays far better than it ever did.

I’ve pointed them out. Those jobs they are currently doing are important. It’s feeding the nation. And again that’s leaving out the massive advantages of highly skilled immigrants.

I don’t think so. A wall would be insanely expensive and it’s undetermined how successful it would be. Not profiting off some of the poorest people in the world would be more effective.

I’m not even trying to say it’s not an issue and we do need policies on immigration. We (USA) just tend to get mad at the wrong people. We are angry at the dirt poor non white people coming into the country working the worst jobs in the country for trash wages. The richest people have convinced poor people (especially rural whites) that the reason they are poor is because of those people. It’s not but it keeps them from being mad at the wealthy people profiting from them. When you’re rich and powerful it’s important to have the poor mad at someone else. So immigration has been perfect for them for awhile. It’s not like Republicans didn’t have the power to do more they had all three branches. The secret is they’d rather run on build the wall than actually build it.

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It’s not just CA. I can drive you to many parts of Kansas (but it’s a boring as shit flat drive) that would die immediately without it.

Hell, I think I had a similar conversation about this with you years ago!