T Nation

Left, Right, No In Between

I realize this might be an extremely elementary base subject, but I’m hoping I’ll learn something here.

I’m not heavily politically inclined. I start and end with my basic rights, and while I do have my own opinions on certain policies, they are strictly based on moral values. I honestly dont really know what side I lean towards naturally anymore. Nor do I care.

But at the most base value…

Why does absolutely everyone on both sides seem to be taking such an extremist stance? “Trumptard, Libtard, Fuckin Libs” Etc. Everyone claims to vote in self interest and personal values, meanwhile, everyone of those same people refer to the opposing party in the most derogatory manner possible. This place is no different. I feel like a leper in most conversations because I can say:

“Trump has been great for my local economy, the housing and labor industries are booming at a rate I’ve never seen”

…and…

“I think Trump is an insufferable human being, with the most fucked moral compass I’ve ever seen”

…in the same breath.

Barring the fact there weren’t ever supposed to be parties…

I thought the point of parties was to swing and keep checks and balances?

at least currently

Conservatives generally keep things controlled and help the economy in their terms, while Liberals tend to be more progressive and help us adapt to the needs of the people.

However, instead:

Liberals are turning our country socialist and trying to put government hands in everybody’s pockets, and conservatives are turning it into Nazi America, not allowing us to progress as a people… and racist?

And the media is firing off on it, actually seeming to try to appeal to these views. As are the candidates.

Most obvious examples:

Trump: yeah, he comes off as kind of a racist dickbag. Anti-Vape, Pro-Life, Anti-immigrant… hot issues that require more nuance than just plainly following with shitty tweets without any context.

Bernie: Has some progressive thought with his stance on legalization and the like… also comes off as a communist trying to get the governments hands in absolutely everything that could be considered the basest of human rights, like healthcare.

I guess… what are your thoughts on why this has taken the aggressive turn that it has? Is it a generational thing? Or is it just inevitable on the advent of the technological age?

As far as I can tell, people on both sides obliterated the possibility of having nuance in virtually all of the big issues in the U.S.

This has always been the case- I’ve studied enough colonial U.S. history to know that people were as nasty back then as they are now.

The more I think about it, the more I think people think their world sucks more than everything that came before it.

The Greatest Generation/maybe the Boomers seems to be uniquely different in that regard, but that can be explained because of the world events they suffered through.

The Greatest Generation lived through one of the most horrible economic crashes to have ever occurred, followed by the greatest war of all time. They were rewarded with having the U.S. as the only standing industrial powerhouse in the midst of a great technological boom while benefiting from a government that actually decided to try to take care of them. No wonder the survivors felt good.

Edit- Fuck, I write this and immediately remember that U.S. citizens in the early-mid 19th largely felt good about the country.

I just wrote another paragraph of shit and started to confuse myself on whether I’m making a good point or not, so I deleted it.

See, this shit is hard to even comprehend. No wonder all issues are difficult to talk about.

Edit 2-

One thing I will say- I find it genuinely upsetting that everyone keeps pointing to other countries and saying that they have the right idea.

They don’t. They argue just as much as we do over the same, or similar, issues.

When I point to other countries and state “they have the right idea”… I’m not referring to “they don’t fight over politics” I refer to sociocultural tradition, the way they implement regulation, incarceration rates, economic stability, incarceration rates and more.

Politically, all countries seem to have the same problem. Those with dramatically opposing ideologies hate one another and viciously fight about it. It appears there has never been room for civilised political debate… it’s all about insulting, digging up dirt on opponents etc… then you’ve got the dictatorships wherein all those with openly differing ideologies will be shot or imprisoned…

Its bullshit, and it’s sad that it will probably always be this way. A televised political debate between rivals should consist of coherent, calmy spoken arguements wherein the public can listen in and see which candidate they agree with the most… now it’s like watching a boxing match, waiting for knockout punches to be thrown… it’s always been this way though, as you’ve specified even in colonial times smear campaigns/tactics were used to tarnish the reputations of rival candidates.

[quote=“unreal24278, post:3, topic:265237, full:true”]
When I point to other countries and state “they have the right idea”… I’m not referring to “they don’t fight over politics” I refer to sociocultural tradition, the way they implement regulation, incarceration rates, economic stability, incarceration rates and more. [/quote]

I should have been clearer- That’s what I meant; people will point to X in another country and say that could work in the U.S., etc.

X can be anything. The point I wanted to make is that those people typically don’t take into account the conditions and mechanisms that allow for X to exist or whether even X is real/accurate to begin with.

Another thing people fail to refer to is engrained sociocultural ideology

I believe you are and aren’t correct at the same time. If the US in some hypothetical alternate dimension had a populace that grew up and thrived on the values preached by those who live in the Netherlands, societally they’d do very well with the rules/regulations currently put in place in the Netherlands (including gun control). But this isn’t the case, government bodies cater to the beliefs harboured by the demographic majority present in X country

For example, if we were to say… forcefully instill American values/ideologies within the Australian populace, there would be massive backlash (say make federal American law Australian law. There would be riots over loosening gun control, increasing the drinking age, changing sex Ed curriculums and abortion law, recregarding minalise prostitution etc.

Within Aus these aforementioned beliefs are harboured by both conservatives and progressives. I believe it’s largely societally mediated. What works for one culture/society won’t work for another, and it’s not fair to force an ideology upon a certain demographic because “hey it works for these guys” whilst we fail to account for the fact that said country has different sociocultural norms

The state of democracy is pretty similar for all western nations in the 21st C. The left has gone to the extreme left, leaving centrists apparently as the new far right. Anyone who disagrees with the left wing narrative is a Nazi, bigot, homophobe, white supremacist etc.
There are many reasons for the state that we are in, that have left us in a fractured state, yet diversity is supposed to be our greatest strength. Orwellian indeed.

Loss of traditional our traditional values. Enlightenment thought we would all ascend to the state where religion would be unnecessary, and we would all live in utopia. All cultures are equal and surely the stupid and superstitious would see reason and adopt our enlightened ways. Instead the west has encouraged immigration from less developed cultures that are rooted in the middle ages at best, and that keep their value system, and can expand in the vacuum left, by the atheism of former Christians.

Our own ways have been substituted by Marxists, feminists, post colonialists, LGBTP’s etc, slowly unravelling the threads of society, dismantling or deconstructing where it has become disunited, to the point of being a barely workable mess.

This has also happened with the right. Trump’s views on say immigrants would have been seen as far right just a decade or two ago. His statements in regards to Mexicans would be met by outrage if they came from Bush.

I am just pointing out that both sides have shifted.

Here’s a different take on the whole left-right-centrist BULLSHIT.

The idea that political ideology could be physically graphed and given some absurd sort of locational value is abject stupidity.

I am politically independent, in that I find neither of the tribalist-inundated, intellectually lazy traditionally scoped groups (conservative/liberal - Repub/Dem crap) adequately fit my own beliefs, and am often labeled as Centrist. I then visualize stabbing the fucker who unjustly labels me in the head with the nearest skull-penetrable object - not because I want to kill or make the asshole suffer - but because I want to eliminate whatever parasite is eating the brain the poor thoughtless automaton has left.

Kill your fucking labels.

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Edgy. So, very, edgy.

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Not so much. Extreme right wing used to be associated with death squads, concentration camps, martial law(when not actually at war). None of those sort of things are being touted let alone done anywhere in the west that I can think of.

A decade or two ago most people would have been anti mass, and or illegal immigration too, they just didn’t talk about it as much because it wasn’t such an issue. Its a world wide phenomenon, now. The new thing is that now with demographic change, and Marxist indoctrinated schooling, you have fellow citizens adopting these ideologies when its against their own best interests and their nation states interests to have uncontrolled immigration.

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I seem to be missing where there is wide support for uncontrolled immigration. Who is actually for that?

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We may not agree. I think both sides have shifted. The tea party caused a shift right in the Republican party. I think Trump has caused a shift right as well. I say this as someone who voted McCain, but can’t bring myself to vote for Trump. The vast difference in the moral compass of the aforementioned politicians I can not get past.

Is that the best you can come up with, tribalist?

Oh - you don’t have any original thoughts - not in your skill set. Sorry.

Let’s try to make it to 15 posts before we freak out. I think the OP’s question was good, and one many people can relate to. Before anybody pretends they have a better understanding of politics than 99% of the population, how about people just share their views in a calm, non-confrontational way?

Settle down big guy. It’s ok. No one is here to label you anything you don’t want to be labeled.

Sorry bro, I gave up civility for lent.

The big issue isn’t people labeling me, but why others are so willing to be - even revel in it.

Does anybody have any real self-respect?

I never said wide public support, but there is definitely a loud vocal minority that have powerful multinational backing, eg Soros. Also your own big businesses like it because it keeps wages low. Your unlikely to ever hear them state this publically, but they are behind the scenes lobbying government. They have also infiltrated the deep state, in all western countries.

I’m not sure about the USA, but think Germany with Angela Merkel, and all the people that went out with “refugees welcome” posters. That pretty much describes what I was referring to.
Of course this sentiment lasted until women started to get raped, sexually assaulted.

A common chant in Antifa, or other left wing groups is “Immigrants are welcome, racists are not”. That’s a worldwide phenomena.

Sanctuary cities in the USA(mainly democratic from what I can tell). Those decisions are coming from the top down. It also seems like you have the majority of democrats vying for the candidacy, that support free health care for all including non citizens, and illegal aliens. That is de facto support for illegal immigration.

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Which democratic candidates are proponents of uncontrolled immigration?

I haven’t responded, but this post is keeping its own momentum, and I am following! I should have some responses shortly

Like I said earlier I don’t think you will get anyone say they are openly for uncontrolled immigration. They are however pandering to the minority vote with support for sanctuary cities and policies for universal healthcare including illegal aliens. From memory definitely Elizabeth Warren supports said healthcare reform. I think most if not all the others in the debate did as well.

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