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Lee Haney Says 'Cheaters Prosper'

So I read something interesting that Lee Haney said today and got me wondering…

“Dense Mass comes from intelligent application of the cheating principle. There is a right way and a wrong way to do it. Beginning and intermediate bodybuilders tend to cheat to make a set easier, but advanced bodybuilders cheat to make a set harder. Your main objective should be to always find a way to take your muscle to its fullest, and cheating is often the only way to take your fibers to absolute fatigue throughout the entire range of motion” ~ Lee Haney

What I take away from it is maybe once you pump out your 8, 10, 15 reps what ever then you go beyond by doing maybe assisted sets, negatives, forced reps or partials. But what I want to know is how would you or do you interpret this? I want to hear what you more experienced guys out there have to say.

I rarely use forced reps these days. WHen I started training, it was dfinitely a meathead mentality,. Now though, not only do I find that I don’t need them, but I’ve been reading more and more how they can be almost counterproductive. NOW, I’m NOT saying this is a fact, and that you should never do them,… but I’ve come to accept this in my own training. Occassionally I’ll do a drop set or two with the dumbells, but to be honest, I’ve seen too many idiots hurt themselves trying forced reps with weights they couldn’t handle on their own.

Just my own 2 cents.

S

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I rarely use forced reps these days. WHen I started training, it was dfinitely a meathead mentality,. Now though, not only do I find that I don’t need them, but I’ve been reading more and more how they can be almost counterproductive. NOW, I’m NOT saying this is a fact, and that you should never do them,… but I’ve come to accept this in my own training. Occassionally I’ll do a drop set or two with the dumbells, but to be honest, I’ve seen too many idiots hurt themselves trying forced reps with weights they couldn’t handle on their own.

Just my own 2 cents.

S
[/quote]

So how would you interpret what Haney said?

I personally am I fan of extended sets, drop sets or partials, I may be of assisted but I workout alone 99% of the time. It feels great and I’ve seen good results with it. After doing a set of wide-grip pullups I drop down and do neutral pullups from a dead hang till my arms hit 90 degrees, that is just one example of what I might do. I’ve heard good and bad things about working out like that, but I’ve gotten results, and like I always say, it’s hard to argue with result.

I think what Haney may mean is that cheating is ok as long as it’s done in a way so you won’t hurt yourself, you push youself beyond what you’d normally do on a set and it makes your muscles work in a different way. To me just another method amoung the hundreds to perform in the gym.

[quote]PF_88 wrote:
I personally am I fan of extended sets, drop sets or partials, I may be of assisted but I workout alone 99% of the time. It feels great and I’ve seen good results with it. After doing a set of wide-grip pullups I drop down and do neutral pullups from a dead hang till my arms hit 90 degrees, that is just one example of what I might do. I’ve heard good and bad things about working out like that, but I’ve gotten results, and like I always say, it’s hard to argue with result.

I think what Haney may mean is that cheating is ok as long as it’s done in a way so you won’t hurt yourself, you push youself beyond what you’d normally do on a set and it makes your muscles work in a different way. To me just another method amoung the hundreds to perform in the gym.[/quote]

What Haney said has nothing to do with pushing yourself beyond what you can do. It has nothing to do with drops sets, or extended sets, or forced reps, or any of that.

He’s talking about not going full ROM. He’s talking about finding the partial ROM that keeps the most stress on the muscle as possible. That’s why you rarely see the big guys fully extend on overhead presses.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
PF_88 wrote:
I personally am I fan of extended sets, drop sets or partials, I may be of assisted but I workout alone 99% of the time. It feels great and I’ve seen good results with it. After doing a set of wide-grip pullups I drop down and do neutral pullups from a dead hang till my arms hit 90 degrees, that is just one example of what I might do. I’ve heard good and bad things about working out like that, but I’ve gotten results, and like I always say, it’s hard to argue with result.

I think what Haney may mean is that cheating is ok as long as it’s done in a way so you won’t hurt yourself, you push youself beyond what you’d normally do on a set and it makes your muscles work in a different way. To me just another method amoung the hundreds to perform in the gym.

What Haney said has nothing to do with pushing yourself beyond what you can do. It has nothing to do with drops sets, or extended sets, or forced reps, or any of that.

He’s talking about not going full ROM. He’s talking about finding the partial ROM that keeps the most stress on the muscle as possible. That’s why you rarely see the big guys fully extend on overhead presses. [/quote]

What makes you so sure that he is talking about partials? Haney’s last sentence was
Your main objective should be to always find a way to take your muscle to its fullest, and cheating is often the only way to take your fibers to absolute fatigue throughout the entire range of motion" ~ Lee Haney

This to me means he may cheat on some reps to get in some negatives. He mentions nothing about shortening his range of motion. “absolute fatigue throughout the entire range of motion”

[quote]rainjack wrote:
PF_88 wrote:
I personally am I fan of extended sets, drop sets or partials, I may be of assisted but I workout alone 99% of the time. It feels great and I’ve seen good results with it. After doing a set of wide-grip pullups I drop down and do neutral pullups from a dead hang till my arms hit 90 degrees, that is just one example of what I might do. I’ve heard good and bad things about working out like that, but I’ve gotten results, and like I always say, it’s hard to argue with result.

I think what Haney may mean is that cheating is ok as long as it’s done in a way so you won’t hurt yourself, you push youself beyond what you’d normally do on a set and it makes your muscles work in a different way. To me just another method amoung the hundreds to perform in the gym.

What Haney said has nothing to do with pushing yourself beyond what you can do. It has nothing to do with drops sets, or extended sets, or forced reps, or any of that.

He’s talking about not going full ROM. He’s talking about finding the partial ROM that keeps the most stress on the muscle as possible. That’s why you rarely see the big guys fully extend on overhead presses. [/quote]

So as long as you maintain constant tension on a muscle it wont matter if your doing full ROM as long as you are breaking the muscle down

[quote]zaydadog wrote:
rainjack wrote:
PF_88 wrote:
I personally am I fan of extended sets, drop sets or partials, I may be of assisted but I workout alone 99% of the time. It feels great and I’ve seen good results with it. After doing a set of wide-grip pullups I drop down and do neutral pullups from a dead hang till my arms hit 90 degrees, that is just one example of what I might do. I’ve heard good and bad things about working out like that, but I’ve gotten results, and like I always say, it’s hard to argue with result.

I think what Haney may mean is that cheating is ok as long as it’s done in a way so you won’t hurt yourself, you push youself beyond what you’d normally do on a set and it makes your muscles work in a different way. To me just another method amoung the hundreds to perform in the gym.

What Haney said has nothing to do with pushing yourself beyond what you can do. It has nothing to do with drops sets, or extended sets, or forced reps, or any of that.

He’s talking about not going full ROM. He’s talking about finding the partial ROM that keeps the most stress on the muscle as possible. That’s why you rarely see the big guys fully extend on overhead presses.

What makes you so sure that he is talking about partials? Haney’s last sentence was
Your main objective should be to always find a way to take your muscle to its fullest, and cheating is often the only way to take your fibers to absolute fatigue throughout the entire range of motion" ~ Lee Haney

This to me means he may cheat on some reps to get in some negatives. He mentions nothing about shortening his range of motion. “absolute fatigue throughout the entire range of motion”[/quote]

He also mentioned that the type of cheating he’s talking about is used by beginners to make lifting easier. I don’t know how beginners are using drop sets and negatives to make anything easier, the only one that would be common ground is “forced” reps, where in a disciplined BBers case a forced rep is lifting to failure, and in a newbies case it’s “see I told you I could do 225x5.”

I’ve seen experienced guys ‘cheat’ the positive portion of a movement so that they can milk the negative, and achieve a little extra muscle overload, but too frequently you see beginners actually cheating themselves (pardon the pun), by trying to do too much. You end up with their training partner lifting the weights for them, or they end up swinging the weights, or they struggle so much they pull their neck muscles while trying to force out a few extra reps on the pec deck. Again, just my own thoughts. Everything has it’s time and place.

S

I think Rainjack hit it on the nose.

Cheating is cheating, whether limiting your ROM, or using momentum to get past a part of a rep.

So partial range training is “cheating”. Well consider me a cheater then, because using partial ROM (typically maximal to supramaximal) training in conjunction with full ROM training is a great way to seriously get strong.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KiScHYFzIdo

Well here’s Lee training and some interview. Interpret what you will from what he says to do and what he does.

[quote]zaydadog wrote:
What makes you so sure that he is talking about partials? Haney’s last sentence was
Your main objective should be to always find a way to take your muscle to its fullest, and cheating is often the only way to take your fibers to absolute fatigue throughout the entire range of motion" ~ Lee Haney

This to me means he may cheat on some reps to get in some negatives. He mentions nothing about shortening his range of motion. “absolute fatigue throughout the entire range of motion”[/quote]

Because going past failure is not cheating. It is going past failure. Forced reps are the same way.

He never says full ROM. He says entire ROM.

Believe it or don’t. Makes no difference to me. But maybe just a small piece of advice for you: Quit getting caught up on what Haney says. Maybe get your ass to the gym, lift hard, and you will know what he means after a few years.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
zaydadog wrote:
What makes you so sure that he is talking about partials? Haney’s last sentence was
Your main objective should be to always find a way to take your muscle to its fullest, and cheating is often the only way to take your fibers to absolute fatigue throughout the entire range of motion" ~ Lee Haney

This to me means he may cheat on some reps to get in some negatives. He mentions nothing about shortening his range of motion. “absolute fatigue throughout the entire range of motion”

Because going past failure is not cheating. It is going past failure. Forced reps are the same way.

He never says full ROM. He says entire ROM.

Believe it or don’t. Makes no difference to me. But maybe just a small piece of advice for you: Quit getting caught up on what Haney says. Maybe get your ass to the gym, lift hard, and you will know what he means after a few years.

[/quote]

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=2155334

Looks like he’s been lifting for a few years already.

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
rainjack wrote:
zaydadog wrote:
What makes you so sure that he is talking about partials? Haney’s last sentence was
Your main objective should be to always find a way to take your muscle to its fullest, and cheating is often the only way to take your fibers to absolute fatigue throughout the entire range of motion" ~ Lee Haney

This to me means he may cheat on some reps to get in some negatives. He mentions nothing about shortening his range of motion. “absolute fatigue throughout the entire range of motion”

Because going past failure is not cheating. It is going past failure. Forced reps are the same way.

He never says full ROM. He says entire ROM.

Believe it or don’t. Makes no difference to me. But maybe just a small piece of advice for you: Quit getting caught up on what Haney says. Maybe get your ass to the gym, lift hard, and you will know what he means after a few years.

http://www.T-Nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=2155334

Looks like he’s been lifting for a few years already.

[/quote]

I stand corrected. Sounded like a newbie. I made a bad assumption.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
PF_88 wrote:
I personally am I fan of extended sets, drop sets or partials, I may be of assisted but I workout alone 99% of the time. It feels great and I’ve seen good results with it. After doing a set of wide-grip pullups I drop down and do neutral pullups from a dead hang till my arms hit 90 degrees, that is just one example of what I might do. I’ve heard good and bad things about working out like that, but I’ve gotten results, and like I always say, it’s hard to argue with result.

I think what Haney may mean is that cheating is ok as long as it’s done in a way so you won’t hurt yourself, you push youself beyond what you’d normally do on a set and it makes your muscles work in a different way. To me just another method amoung the hundreds to perform in the gym.

What Haney said has nothing to do with pushing yourself beyond what you can do. It has nothing to do with drops sets, or extended sets, or forced reps, or any of that.

He’s talking about not going full ROM. He’s talking about finding the partial ROM that keeps the most stress on the muscle as possible. That’s why you rarely see the big guys fully extend on overhead presses. [/quote]

Agreed…and it is the same thing many of us have been saying for years.

I do not use a full ROM on all movements, especially chest and overhead presses. That may be why my chest and shoulders grew so much…because I damn sure don’t see the same thing on the little guys taking 20 seconds to go through one full rep.

Cheating has a place and shouldn’t even be called “cheating” once you build arms that big and use that much weight.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
zaydadog wrote:
What makes you so sure that he is talking about partials? Haney’s last sentence was
Your main objective should be to always find a way to take your muscle to its fullest, and cheating is often the only way to take your fibers to absolute fatigue throughout the entire range of motion" ~ Lee Haney

This to me means he may cheat on some reps to get in some negatives. He mentions nothing about shortening his range of motion. “absolute fatigue throughout the entire range of motion”

Because going past failure is not cheating. It is going past failure. Forced reps are the same way.

He never says full ROM. He says entire ROM.

Believe it or don’t. Makes no difference to me. But maybe just a small piece of advice for you: Quit getting caught up on what Haney says. Maybe get your ass to the gym, lift hard, and you will know what he means after a few years.

[/quote]

I apologize if I offended you. I was just curious as to why you were so sure about what he meant. I assumed entire range meant full range.

I am heading straight to the gym :wink:

I think what Haney meant was that he cheats himself in such a way to utilize as much muscle usage as possible. It’s not a matter of going past failure, but more like a limited ROM in order to hit the targeted muscles more. Yates had the same mentality and even stated (one of his training vids) that he could lift more than he did when training, but didn’t because his goals while working out wasn’t to push the biggest weight, but to stimulate the muscles throughout the ROM- basically what Rainjack/Prof-X has said

Sloppy form to get the last few reps in and create an overload. Cheat Reps.

Done and Done.

:wink:

I think Arthur Jones’ description is pretty good.

Read #8 and on.

  1. Load a barbell with a weight you can do for 10 repetitions in good form. Then decrease your weight by 10 pounds, because you probably overestimated your strength.

  2. Grasp the bar with an underhand grip and stand erect.

  3. Anchor your elbows firmly against the sides of your waist and keep them there.

  4. Lean forward slightly, look down at your hands, and curl the bar smoothly and slowly. Don’t move your head.

  5. Pause briefly in the top position, but don’t move your elbows forward. Keep your hands on the bar in front of your torso, as opposed to over your elbows.

  6. Lower the bar slowly and smoothly. Again, keep your elbows stable against your sides. The movement is very deliberate, and each repetition takes approximately 3 seconds going up and 3 seconds going down.

  7. Repeat the curling movement using this exact form. You’re aiming for 10 repetitions, but in reality, with this strict form, you hit the wall at 6.

  8. Jones would now tell you to loosen your form slightly, by moving your elbows out and backward and forward a little. You want to get the weight up, then focus on lowering it slowly. Sure enough, you get another repetition, but you can’t get the next one. At this point, your biceps are very fatigued, and your forearms and hands are getting tired.

  9. �??Loosen your form even more,�?? Jones would say, instructing you to lean forward and then backward while curling. Yep, you can do another, and, with Jones challenging you, you get one more�?? again concentrating on the negative, or lowering, phase. Those were repetitions 8 and 9. Now your lower back is killing you, your legs are shaking, your lungs are burning, and your heart rate is more than 180 beats per minute. Lucky for you, you’ve lost all feeling in your biceps, forearms, and hands.

  10. �??Get one more repetition,�?? Jones would inform you now. He’d be standing in front of you, telling you he’ll help you get the last one. Slowly, the bar starts moving. You feel as if you’re almost power-cleaning the barbell, using every muscle fiber to pull the weight to the top. When it gets there, Jones would give the final command.

  11. �??Bring the bar halfway down and hold for a count of five. That’s it�??five, four, three, two, one! Now, ease the barbell to the floor.�??