T Nation

Learning to Love Big Government

"Americans Embrace Big Government to Help Solve Market Crisis

By Edwin Chen and Matthew Benjamin

Oct. 15 (Bloomberg) – Americans are looking to big government to dig the country out of the financial crisis, a Bloomberg/Los Angeles Times poll shows.

A plurality of voters support the $700 billion financial- market rescue bill President George W. Bush signed into law Oct. 4. That is a turnaround from a Bloomberg/Times poll in September, when a solid majority said it wasn’t the government’s responsibility to bail out private companies.

The poll conducted Oct. 10-13 also finds that Americans favor the federal government providing assistance to homeowners facing foreclosure, by a greater than 2-to-1 margin. And almost three-quarters say they believe insufficient government regulation contributed to the financial and housing crises, up sharply from September.

Poll respondents say they want government to step in."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=alhCRwBpIK0U&refer=home

Americans want a nanny state but also reserve the right to choose their masters. We love big government. Its only natural that the state should have a stake in running large companies, esp banks.

Our future is a kinder gentler version of Nazi Germany.

I think the article got it wrong. Most americans were against the bailout. I have yet to talk to a single person who thought it was a good idea.

Congress wanted it, and Wall Street wanted it. Regular guys didn’t.

Agree.

The was “representative” Government at its worst.

Mufasa

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

I really don’t think that McCain is an evil man.

Mufasa

Mufasa,

You keep saying that you still believe McCain is going to win. Are you in denial, or do you honestly believe this? If so, what do you think he is going to do to turn this thing around and come out on top on Nov. 4th? There is no denying that he is quite a bit behing right now and needs a serious boost.

I’m looking for a good reason to get optimistic again. I’m having a very hard time believing McCain has any chance at all.

[quote]tedro wrote:
Mufasa,

You keep saying that you still believe McCain is going to win. Are you in denial, or do you honestly believe this? If so, what do you think he is going to do to turn this thing around and come out on top on Nov. 4th? There is no denying that he is quite a bit behing right now and needs a serious boost.

I’m looking for a good reason to get optimistic again. I’m having a very hard time believing McCain has any chance at all.[/quote]

One reason is because the polls ALWAYS favor the democratic candidate before the election. The dem candidate needs to be a full 10 points ahead before anyone should even pay attention.

New Baby Jesus has never been that far ahead in the battle ground states. In fact, he is only ahead of the margin of error in one state.

Do you ever look at the internals of most of these polls? They weight it so that they poll about 20% more dems than republicans.

The error in that is that republicans vote. Democrats don’t. We’ll see if it holds this time around, or if the dems actually get to the polls this year.

[quote]tedro wrote:
Mufasa,

You keep saying that you still believe McCain is going to win. Are you in denial, or do you honestly believe this? If so, what do you think he is going to do to turn this thing around and come out on top on Nov. 4th? There is no denying that he is quite a bit behing right now and needs a serious boost.

I’m looking for a good reason to get optimistic again. I’m having a very hard time believing McCain has any chance at all.[/quote]

I agree. I sometimes fool myself with the following thoughts: well, maybe McCain doesn’t want to peak to early? Etc. It’s getting harder and harder to say this without giggling though.

One thing to consider, however, is that Reagan was much further behind at the END of October and he was able to reverse it. On the other hand, McCain ain’t no Reagan. And the times/context was quite different.

Still, it can be done. But McCain really has to pull himself together - and soon. Hopefully, tonight.

I think the point of the article is that the majority of americans in September opposed the bailout, but now it looks as if they have changed thier minds. I wonder why? Think the media sowed the seeds for them to “need” the government?

That is the opinion I hold anyways, what other reason could there be I cannot think of one. It is becoming clearer and clearer that the country is half asleep and simply look to the media to tell them what to think. This is bullshit.

V

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I think the article got it wrong. Most americans were against the bailout. I have yet to talk to a single person who thought it was a good idea.

Congress wanted it, and Wall Street wanted it. Regular guys didn’t. [/quote]

This is true…I, on the other hand, didn’t really know what to make of it. It was a situation where we may really have had no choice, but then again did it or will it do anything. I guess time will tell but I do know this much government invasivness in in the free market stifles the fluidity of the market. To that end, whether or not the bail out was necessary or not, it’s presence will prolong a economic slow down; however, it may have prevented an absolute crash…Only history will reveal the truth.

There is one thing I know in all of this debacle, there is more than one person who should have their hands tied to the bars while their fellow inmates pound their shit into chocolate mousse.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
I think the point of the article is that the majority of americans in September opposed the bailout, but now it looks as if they have changed thier minds. I wonder why? Think the media sowed the seeds for them to “need” the government? That is the opinion I hold anyways, what other reason could there be I cannot think of one. It is becoming clearer and clearer that the country is half asleep and simply look to the media to tell them what to think. This is bullshit.

V[/quote]

One of the cool things that came out of the bailout was seeing just how many people - when it really matters - ignores what they are being told on the TV, and will vociferously protest to being fucked.

The phone lines to my elected officials in DC were completely jammed, and their email servers were shut down because of all the people registering their disgust at being made to pay for the mistakes of everyone else.

The same thing happened back during the 90’s when Hillary-care was about to be rammed down our throats. The people revolted.

Presidential politics should be participated in with the same vigor, but when you have “shit” and “suck” running against each other, eyes glass over and no one cares.

The key to reigniting the fire of democracy in the masses is to give them candidates that fuel the fire. Not talking partisanship here, but something like what Reagan did back in the 80’s.

Like her, or hate her - I think that is exactly the type of presidential candidate Palin would make. Granted, she has a long way to go before she will be presidential material - but she ignites a fire under people.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Vegita wrote:
I think the point of the article is that the majority of americans in September opposed the bailout, but now it looks as if they have changed thier minds. I wonder why? Think the media sowed the seeds for them to “need” the government? That is the opinion I hold anyways, what other reason could there be I cannot think of one. It is becoming clearer and clearer that the country is half asleep and simply look to the media to tell them what to think. This is bullshit.

V

One of the cool things that came out of the bailout was seeing just how many people - when it really matters - ignores what they are being told on the TV, and will vociferously protest to being fucked.

The phone lines to my elected officials in DC were completely jammed, and their email servers were shut down because of all the people registering their disgust at being made to pay for the mistakes of everyone else.

The same thing happened back during the 90’s when Hillary-care was about to be rammed down our throats. The people revolted.

Presidential politics should be participated in with the same vigor, but when you have “shit” and “suck” running against each other, eyes glass over and no one cares.

The key to reigniting the fire of democracy in the masses is to give them candidates that fuel the fire. Not talking partisanship here, but something like what Reagan did back in the 80’s.

Like her, or hate her - I think that is exactly the type of presidential candidate Palin would make. Granted, she has a long way to go before she will be presidential material - but she ignites a fire under people. [/quote]

Seriously? Just when I think you are about to say a “Ron Paul” Type politician, only a little younger and better spoken, you come back with Palin? Dude she was caught using corruption in her own little state. Granted I think the guy should have been fired also, but when people start taking things into thier own hands to do what they think is right, without following the procedures and rules set up to keep them from abusing thier power, then they have become corrupt.

She can misuse her power for good all she wants, but one day she is going to do it on an issue that is less clear cut and people will get hurt because of it. You have to have people who are honest and truthful and do everything above board. Look I think Palin has some good qualities as well, but the most important thing for a politician to be is honest and open. She has already proven she is not, therefore I will never vote for her to represent me. One strike and your out, thats the only way the american people will ever get these politicians back under control.

V

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Vegita wrote:
I think the point of the article is that the majority of americans in September opposed the bailout, but now it looks as if they have changed thier minds. I wonder why? Think the media sowed the seeds for them to “need” the government? That is the opinion I hold anyways, what other reason could there be I cannot think of one. It is becoming clearer and clearer that the country is half asleep and simply look to the media to tell them what to think. This is bullshit.

V

One of the cool things that came out of the bailout was seeing just how many people - when it really matters - ignores what they are being told on the TV, and will vociferously protest to being fucked.

The phone lines to my elected officials in DC were completely jammed, and their email servers were shut down because of all the people registering their disgust at being made to pay for the mistakes of everyone else.

The same thing happened back during the 90’s when Hillary-care was about to be rammed down our throats. The people revolted.

Presidential politics should be participated in with the same vigor, but when you have “shit” and “suck” running against each other, eyes glass over and no one cares.

The key to reigniting the fire of democracy in the masses is to give them candidates that fuel the fire. Not talking partisanship here, but something like what Reagan did back in the 80’s.

Like her, or hate her - I think that is exactly the type of presidential candidate Palin would make. Granted, she has a long way to go before she will be presidential material - but she ignites a fire under people. [/quote]

I also wanted to address the beginning of your post here. I understand that the majority of americans were against the bailout. I was and still am one of them. I called and faxed and e-mailed my representatives to tell them they are fucking tards, but the point of the article again, was that now, magically, the people are supportive of the bailout. What has changed that they would now support it? Nothing, things have gotten worse, and it is clear that the government had a hand in making this situation so bad to begin with, the people should absolutely still not want any sort of a bailout. Yet now they love it? Gimme a break.

V

[quote]rainjack wrote:
tedro wrote:
Mufasa,

You keep saying that you still believe McCain is going to win. Are you in denial, or do you honestly believe this? If so, what do you think he is going to do to turn this thing around and come out on top on Nov. 4th? There is no denying that he is quite a bit behing right now and needs a serious boost.

I’m looking for a good reason to get optimistic again. I’m having a very hard time believing McCain has any chance at all.

One reason is because the polls ALWAYS favor the democratic candidate before the election. The dem candidate needs to be a full 10 points ahead before anyone should even pay attention.

New Baby Jesus has never been that far ahead in the battle ground states. In fact, he is only ahead of the margin of error in one state.

Do you ever look at the internals of most of these polls? They weight it so that they poll about 20% more dems than republicans.

The error in that is that republicans vote. Democrats don’t. We’ll see if it holds this time around, or if the dems actually get to the polls this year. [/quote]

Electoral College projection on Oct. 15, 2004:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2004/Pres/Maps/Oct15.html

Final Electoral College voting in 2004:

The only state that flipped from the projection was Nevada, while one tossup (Iowa) went to Bush and two (NH, NJ) went to Kerry.

Every projection I have looked at has Obama winning already, many in a landside. McCain needs to steal a number of states to come out ahead.

[quote]tedro wrote:
rainjack wrote:
tedro wrote:
Mufasa,

You keep saying that you still believe McCain is going to win. Are you in denial, or do you honestly believe this? If so, what do you think he is going to do to turn this thing around and come out on top on Nov. 4th? There is no denying that he is quite a bit behing right now and needs a serious boost.

I’m looking for a good reason to get optimistic again. I’m having a very hard time believing McCain has any chance at all.

One reason is because the polls ALWAYS favor the democratic candidate before the election. The dem candidate needs to be a full 10 points ahead before anyone should even pay attention.

New Baby Jesus has never been that far ahead in the battle ground states. In fact, he is only ahead of the margin of error in one state.

Do you ever look at the internals of most of these polls? They weight it so that they poll about 20% more dems than republicans.

The error in that is that republicans vote. Democrats don’t. We’ll see if it holds this time around, or if the dems actually get to the polls this year.

Electoral College projection on Oct. 15, 2004:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2004/Pres/Maps/Oct15.html

Final Electoral College voting in 2004:

The only state that flipped from the projection was Nevada, while one tossup (Iowa) went to Bush and two (NH, NJ) went to Kerry.

Every projection I have looked at has Obama winning already, many in a landside. McCain needs to steal a number of states to come out ahead.

[/quote]

What would be interesting would be to see the % for each state in Oct. and the final results. That would be much more useful.

[quote]dhickey wrote:

What would be interesting would be to see the % for each state in Oct. and the final results. That would be much more useful.[/quote]

Here’s the final:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2004/Pres/Maps/Nov08.html

If you scroll over the individual states you can see the polling numbers. Click next and previous report to scroll through the days in between.

I haven’t looked at them all closely, but it looks like the only day-to-day differences in 2004 are due mostly to Florida going back and forth. McCains chances of winning hinge on a lot more than carrying Florida.

[quote]tedro wrote:
rainjack wrote:
tedro wrote:
Mufasa,

You keep saying that you still believe McCain is going to win. Are you in denial, or do you honestly believe this? If so, what do you think he is going to do to turn this thing around and come out on top on Nov. 4th? There is no denying that he is quite a bit behing right now and needs a serious boost.

I’m looking for a good reason to get optimistic again. I’m having a very hard time believing McCain has any chance at all.

One reason is because the polls ALWAYS favor the democratic candidate before the election. The dem candidate needs to be a full 10 points ahead before anyone should even pay attention.

New Baby Jesus has never been that far ahead in the battle ground states. In fact, he is only ahead of the margin of error in one state.

Do you ever look at the internals of most of these polls? They weight it so that they poll about 20% more dems than republicans.

The error in that is that republicans vote. Democrats don’t. We’ll see if it holds this time around, or if the dems actually get to the polls this year.

Electoral College projection on Oct. 15, 2004:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2004/Pres/Maps/Oct15.html

Final Electoral College voting in 2004:

The only state that flipped from the projection was Nevada, while one tossup (Iowa) went to Bush and two (NH, NJ) went to Kerry.

Every projection I have looked at has Obama winning already, many in a landside. McCain needs to steal a number of states to come out ahead.

[/quote]

You are using only one prior election with an incumbent president as a model for this year’s election?

The 1992 and 1996 numbers had Clinton winning in a landslide - but he never even garnered a majority of the vote.

No one predicted the revolution of 1994, either.

2000 had Gore winning in a landslide, and was leading in the polls going in, but we all know haow that turned out.

All I am saying is the election will be much closer than people think because republicans vote, and are under represented in the polls.

Why do people act like the polls are the be all and end all? Unless only those polled are allowed to vote, there is always room for error. Usually much more room than people worshiping the polls want to admit.

[quote]tedro wrote:
dhickey wrote:

What would be interesting would be to see the % for each state in Oct. and the final results. That would be much more useful.

Here’s the final:
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2004/Pres/Maps/Nov08.html

If you scroll over the individual states you can see the polling numbers. Click next and previous report to scroll through the days in between.

I haven’t looked at them all closely, but it looks like the only day-to-day differences in 2004 are due mostly to Florida going back and forth. McCains chances of winning hinge on a lot more than carrying Florida.[/quote]

If you look at that site and compare the swing of votes in 2004 from now until election day, and compare them to the Obama/McCain numbers on the same site…Obama by a landslide.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

Why do people act like the polls are the be all and end all? Unless only those polled are allowed to vote, there is always room for error. Usually much more room than people worshiping the polls want to admit.

[/quote]

It’s kind of like playing fantasy football. It makes the election more exciting. That’s why we hear about them all the time.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

Why do people act like the polls are the be all and end all?

[/quote]

Because when there is a naked chick dancing on one, not much else matters.