T Nation

Lean Mass Diet, Advice from Low Carbers?

Hey guys i’m new to the site. I have been a member over on the anabolic minds forum but i have always found myself lurking around t nation for information so i finally decided to join the T-Nation community. It seems like a really cool site with a lot of interesting information with a lot of knowledgeable guys and gals. so basically i was looking for some advice on nutrition from you guys and gals.

By the way im 5’10 190lbs 10.5% body fat with calipers. I know calipers isnt the best but i dont have access to hydrostatic weighing or bod-pod. Im a fan of the old school bodybuilding methods especially when it comes to diet and really like the gironda principles. My current diet that I have been following is as follows

6 am
6oz grass fed beef
2 whole omega 3 eggs
1.5 tbls. grass fed butter
1.5 cups of broccoli
1 kelp tablet
3 fish oil tablets

9:30 am (post training)
6 whole omega 3 eggs
2 tbls. grass fed organic heavy whipping cream
.5 scoop ON’s natural micellar casein

12:30 pm
6oz grass fed beef
2 whole omega 3 eggs
1.5 tbls. grass fed butter
1.5 cups of broccoli
1 kelp tablet
3 fish oil tablets

3:30 pm
6 whole omega 3 eggs
2 tbls. grass fed organic heavy whipping cream
.5 scoop ON’s natural micellar casein

6:30 pm
6oz grass fed beef
2 whole omega 3 eggs
1.5 tbls. grass fed butter
1.5 cups of broccoli
1 kelp tablet
3 fish oil tablets

9:30 pm
6 whole omega 3 eggs
2 tbls. grass fed organic heavy whipping cream
.5 scoop ON’s natural micellar casein

Livestrong estimate
Rougly 3400 cals (63.27% Fat~235g), (35.42% pro.~295), (1.32% carb.~11g)
This doesnt include broccoli cals.
The eggs i use says zero carbs but to be safe assume .5 per egg
the eggs plus broccoli put me at around 30g per day.

On non training days i remove meal number 1. I train 5 days a week. I can post training routine if needed. currently not doing any cardio also.
Just recently added the heavy whipping cream. Im trying to increase cals slowly for lean mass gains.

My questions are does this look like a decent plan that could give some lean mass gains. Is there anything you would recommend changing? Is it too much fat or protein or not enough? Any mineral/vitamin supps you would recommend? How would you incorporate glycogen refeeds? I have been doing carb loads last meal of the day every monday and friday nights.

I use sweet potatoes, large banana, and ezekiel bread and shoot for ~200g of carbs. Is this enough or should i try adding more. But im thinking about trying every 5 days. Kinda seems like im adding too much fat than i want. Im not sure if its just water or fat though. sodium intake might be messing with water retention. Im new to refeeds.

Reason for wanting to continue low carb is that i feel i have steadier energy levels and carbs make me very gaseous and horrible smelling farts also and give me loose stools. Dont think this could be good. No problems as such with high fat/protein route even with all the eggs.

Any advice would greatly be appreciated

looks pretty great to me IMO, the one thing i would change personally is to not have sooo many eggs, they are great, but they are also very easy to develop an allergy to (which I eventually did). Find some different sources of protein/fat besides always eggs and beef. Salmon, sardines, etc…

I’m curious as to how a ketogenic meal plan can allow for gains ? Is it that we really don’t need insulin or is the protein insulinogenic enough?

By the way totally stealing this meal plan for a January cut.

Protein can be very insulinogenic

protein can be very insulinogenic to my understanding and certain amino acid profiles illicit a larger response than others. In this study(An insulin index of foods: the insulin demand generated by 1000-kJ portions of common foods, by Department of Biochemistry, University of Sydney, Australia, 1997) they concluded that some protein and fat-rich foods induced as much insulin secretion as did some carbohydrate-rich foods (eg, beef was equal to brown rice and fish was equal to grain bread). However this study doesnt acknowledge that insulin response from protein sources is followed by a response from its sister hormone glucagon and a rise in triacylglycerol, which is not found after and insulin rise caused by the consumption of carbohydrates because protien doesnt lead to the rise in glucose as with carb containing meals. I remember reading somewhere that layne norton stated that 5g of glucose could be generated through gluconeogenesis per hour max, dont know if this is true by the way. Also read that Gironda once stated that red meat could maintain insulin levels for up to 6-8 hours and i read a study that supported this. I will have to find it.

Also to my understanding is that protein synthesis can be achieved through maintaining a positive nitrogen balance and activation of the MTOR pathway which is activated through training and consumption of 3grams of luecine, (4 whole eggs contain this amount) per meal will activate this pathway as well and max out protein synthesis as long as there is adequate caloric intake to support muscle growth.

Maybe someone else could chime in with some better knowledge on the subject

does anyone factor in digestability percentages to their protein intake. Say if a source of protein had a supposedly 80% digestability and you wanted to hit a certain amount of protein within a meal to keep meals balanced?

[quote]Greg_the_ripper wrote:
does anyone factor in digestability percentages to their protein intake. Say if a source of protein had a supposedly 80% digestability and you wanted to hit a certain amount of protein within a meal to keep meals balanced?[/quote]

Great point. I record my macros with LoseIt and it doesn’t discriminate the grain proteins like from my oats which I know are mostly shit.

I read Clays PDF set your metabolism on fire and he basically thinks we should count those types of proteins as trivial incidental amounts. shrug

Any suggestions on the refeeds tork94?

[quote]Greg_the_ripper wrote:
Any suggestions on the refeeds tork94?[/quote]

It sort of depends on how lean you are. So… how lean are you?

My personal re-feeds are kept pretty clean and at ONE meal/week, usually dinner after my most challenging workout of the week. Obviously still lots of protein and some veggies, but just add in a shit load of carbs. Im still working on getting leaner so i almost always keep my carbs in the “paleo” range. Ie yams, sweet potatos, quinoa, dark colored rice etc…

occasionally I will re-feed with things like pizza and ice-cream, but those are rare as i dont have much of a taste for crap anymore.

IF you are quite lean, ie, between 8-12% body-fat, you could probably have a re-feed DAY. except breakfast. have your regular protein, veggie, nuts etc… breakfast, but for the rest of the day get aprox 70% of your calories from carbs.

EDIT: whoops, just re-read your original post as say that you are 10.5% currently. if that is accurate, you could easily opt for a re-feed day.

OP,
I build like this regularly, just chiming in to share my experiences, I carb load everyother night, and also keep it clean (Rice, bananas, honey, rice milk). I find it easier to stay leaner if I load up with faster digesting carbs as opposed to the slower digesting (Sweet potatos, oatmeal, brown rice, EZ Bread). I’ve been told its cos’ The slower carbs keep your insulin levels higher, LONGER, as the faster carbs spike, then drop more rapidly…putting you back into fat burning mode…
Im no pro, just sharing my results! Hope this helps and keep us posted on how your doing!

well tork94 after doing some recommendations of Poliquin and CT, thinking im gonna opt for possibly every 5 days at the last meal of the day. I too opt for clean sources of carbs and dont care much for garbage. Im all about nutrition. If i feel that im not gaining properly i might up the carbs and choose to do do a whole day refeed every 7th day.

I also read skimmed through the 20 pages of your biosignature thread and if you dont mind what supps would you recommend for inner thighs, umbelical, lower back, and hams. Im currently only taking 3 kelp tabs a day which has folic acid in it, 3 beverly nutrition liver tabs per meal, and 6 grams of l-carnitine L tartrate and 15g pysullum husk fiber a day divided between the 3 heavy whipping cream/raw egg meals, and 9 grams of fish oil.
I also have digestive enzymes with betaine HCL but havent been taking them regularly. Think im gonna take three a day with the meat meals to help with digestion of the meat

Also subject_17 i might try this option once i get below 10% in the future but for now im trying to advoid fructose which is very concentrated in simple sugars to keep my liver from filling and keep my body as fat adapted as i can mainly using it to meet energy requirements and not storage since my fat intake is pretty high to begin with so every other day refeeds would work against my plan

[quote]Greg_the_ripper wrote:
well tork94 after doing some recommendations of Poliquin and CT, thinking im gonna opt for possibly every 5 days at the last meal of the day. I too opt for clean sources of carbs and dont care much for garbage. Im all about nutrition. If i feel that im not gaining properly i might up the carbs and choose to do do a whole day refeed every 7th day.

I also read skimmed through the 20 pages of your biosignature thread and if you dont mind what supps would you recommend for inner thighs, umbelical, lower back, and hams. Im currently only taking 3 kelp tabs a day which has folic acid in it, 3 beverly nutrition liver tabs per meal, and 6 grams of l-carnitine L tartrate a day, and 9 grams of fish oil.

Also subject_17 i might try this option once i get below 10% in the future but for now im trying to advoid fructose which is very concentrated in simple sugars to keep my liver from filling and keep my body as fat adapted as i can mainly using it to meet energy requirements and not storage since my fat intake is pretty high to begin with so every other day refeeds would work against my plan[/quote]

I think the every 5 days is an excellent compromise and should work really well for you. As far as supps go, i have not really had any luck significantly reducing my quad and hamstring fat. I did about 2 months on DIM+calcium-d-Glucarate+fiber, which worked pretty good to start, but soon stopped working all together, and when i went off of it, almost all the lower body fat came back. I have just had to be really patient with the lower body fat and just work hard and eat clean. it has gone down slowly each and every skinfold test lately, however i would suggest taking some supplementary fiber first thing in the morning and last thing at night (ground flax, chia, physilium) . for the unbelical, i have never done a protocol for stress, but i found that when I added phosphatidylserine post-workout, that my fat loss in the umbilical did accelerate. For lower back/insulin, i take a supplement called Ortho-Glucose 2 from AOR and take 1 cap, with breakfast, lunch and dinner, and usually 2 caps right before my carb-up meal.

yeah the 5 day i believe would be the best option for me since my training style is bb. i will have to look into some of those supps. Also how many carbs do you shoot for during your refeeds? Also if you were to increase cals in the meal plan above what would you increase first.

Just recently added in the heavy whipping cream. And im also gonna look into possibly decreasing the eggs as you first stated if i begin to notice any problems. But i read somewhere that raw eggs didnt promote allergys like cooked eggs did. I eat most of mine raw in the whole food shakes. Also have you heard/read anything about “relora” for cortisol control

[quote]Greg_the_ripper wrote:
yeah the 5 day i believe would be the best option for me since my training style is bb. i will have to look into some of those supps. Also how many carbs do you shoot for during your refeeds? Also if you were to increase cals in the meal plan above what would you increase first.

Just recently added in the heavy whipping cream. And im also gonna look into possibly decreasing the eggs as you first stated if i begin to notice any problems. But i read somewhere that raw eggs didnt promote allergys like cooked eggs did. I eat most of mine raw in the whole food shakes. Also have you heard/read anything about “relora” for cortisol control[/quote]

to be honest dude i really dont know how many carbs i get in my re-feeds, i just make sure its a lot (very individual thing). Like if im going out for dinner, and the meal has rice, ill ask for a double portion etc… Its your time to relax on your diet a bit and just enjoy some food that you havent had for a while, so just make sure theres lots of carbs and protein and make it enjoyable imo.

If your looking to gain more weight, or stall etc… I would increase the protein if anything, although the meal plan above looks really solid so you could just eat more of everything.

I have no idea what relora is, but ill look it up. if you try it, let me know what you think.

well relora is a cortisol blocker supposed to be one of the strongest natural OTC available and beleive Poliquin himself has even recommended it. its claimed to reduce cortisol by 37% and increase dhea by over 200% but im still looking into the dhea part and if an increase would be beneficial or negatively impact things.

For the diet i might try just increasing The red meat by an ounce per meal and increase the fish oil per meal to see how it impacts growth and possibly add in a multivitamin from beverly international and possibly some vit c.

Also tork94, your training is more powerlifting i beleive by reading some of your posts in other forums correct?

[quote]Greg_the_ripper wrote:
well relora is a cortisol blocker supposed to be one of the strongest natural OTC available and beleive Poliquin himself has even recommended it. its claimed to reduce cortisol by 37% and increase dhea by over 200% but im still looking into the dhea part and if an increase would be beneficial or negatively impact things.

For the diet i might try just increasing The red meat by an ounce per meal and increase the fish oil per meal to see how it impacts growth and possibly add in a multivitamin from beverly international and possibly some vit c.

Also tork94, your training is more powerlifting i beleive by reading some of your posts in other forums correct?[/quote]

very intersting, PS is very expensive, so maybe relora would be a good option for me to save some $.

My training now is a lot more well rounded then it was in the past. Im done competing in Olympic lifting, and now change my programs fairly frequently from hypertrophy to body comp, to max strength etc…

my favorite program so far has been the German body comp for athletes program.

Whats your take on russian powerlifting routines. I got reading into them and how some stacked multiple movements like bench, squat and deads on the same day. I have recently switched my routine from a BB 5 day split to a 4 day split with an added full day body routine, to try and add some extra size really pounding the type 2 fibers The full body day consists of deads, bench and squats in that order. The way i set it up was week 1 5x5, week2 4x5, week 3 3x5 and week 4 deload week. Every week i add 5lbs to all lifts making the intensity increase and volume decrease. I figured i would give it a try for some extra winter mass.

Now powerlifting is not my thing, but going heavy has its purpose. Whats your thoughts on this full body setup!

By the way you gotta watch out for those sneaky russians lol

By the way i see your from canada, you must have pretty easy access to all kinds of tasty meats like moose and caribou-probably my favorite i have tried.

to be honest man, i really don’t know to much about powerlifting. I personally was competitive in Weightlifting because I had really really solid technique, am super flexible and I was much faster/more explosive then the other lifters. I was NOT very strong at all for the weights i did in competition.

However, I think your idea could work, but I would increase the reps to the 6-8 range if you want to get some hypertrophy of the type 2 fibers. That program is more of a strength program opposed to a true mass gaining program. If you keep the reps at 5ish, then at least make each rep last 4-5 seconds if you really want hypertrophy. so using 3-4 second eccentrics. you will have to go lighter, BUT you WILL still get stronger, and the added TUT will definitely help you grow.

I do have access to some of those meats, but they are still very expensive, and as im still in school (kinesiology) and only working part time as a strength coach, i dont have much money to spare. so most of my meats are conventionally grown and in ground format lol.

im in school as well for exercise science. Same thing as kinesiology.