Leaked Cables, Cuban Healthcare System

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Some insights in the Cuban healthcare system. These cables were not meant to be seen by the public so tampering for propaganda purposes is unlikely.
[/quote]

Or maybe the CIA hired Julian Assange to leak all those memos to cover up the fact that the one memo the US wanted to release was this one discrediting the Cuban healthcare system!

Did you ever think of that?[/quote]

why hire him?

They could just have instructed Manning to leak them.

Unlikely though, because that would have meant to write 100000+ convincing cables.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Some insights in the Cuban healthcare system. These cables were not meant to be seen by the public so tampering for propaganda purposes is unlikely.
[/quote]

Or maybe the CIA hired Julian Assange to leak all those memos to cover up the fact that the one memo the US wanted to release was this one discrediting the Cuban healthcare system!

Did you ever think of that?[/quote]

why hire him?

They could just have instructed Manning to leak them.

Unlikely though, because that would have meant to write 100000+ convincing cables.

[/quote]

I guess its not a good joke if people don’t get it.

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Eli B wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Some insights in the Cuban healthcare system. These cables were not meant to be seen by the public so tampering for propaganda purposes is unlikely.
[/quote]

Or maybe the CIA hired Julian Assange to leak all those memos to cover up the fact that the one memo the US wanted to release was this one discrediting the Cuban healthcare system!

Did you ever think of that?[/quote]

why hire him?

They could just have instructed Manning to leak them.

Unlikely though, because that would have meant to write 100000+ convincing cables.

[/quote]

I guess its not a good joke if people don’t get it.[/quote]

You know that there are people out there who claim that in earnest?

Not the Cuban part off course, but that Assange is a CIA front.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Wow, when the media gets a hold of this one Micheal Moore will be discredited big time - Oh that’s right the media won’t say anything about this they are liberal and so is Moore, so he gets a pass.[/quote]

The paper thats been linked to is a left wing paper.

[quote]ZEB wrote:That’s funny, little Ryan P. McCarter says that the Cuban system is a virtual utopia and is by far better than the US. Go figure, I guess he’s never been there and socialist authors can say what they like.
[/quote]

Ahaha!!! What happened to you in the other thread, ZEB? Did I hurt your feelings too bad? I sowwy. But, I’m about to do it again:

First of all, I never said that it was a utopia; that’s just you trying to avoid a debate (which you know you’d lose) by setting up a false standard that is easily defeated. What I and others have said, is that Cuba’s achievements are impressive, especially considering the blockade of their country by the United States, which not only prevents US citizens from spending money in Cuba, US businesses from doing business with Cuba, foreign subsidiaries of US businesses from doing business with Cuba, but also gives the US the power to sue any company anywhere that does business with Cuba.

Now, on to the actual substance of the cable. Perhaps no one has read Moore’s article that was linked to earlier, but it not only contains a link to another official secret cable from 1961 that we now know to be utterly false

and which therefore makes all subsequent US cables regarding Cuba liable to doubt, but it actually links to several sources that incontrovertibly repudiate the assertions made in the cable. Here is a Cuban article about Sicko which states explicitly that it had been broadcast on Cuban television:

Here is a stub containing information about the broadcast of Sicko on the Cuban educational channel:

And here is a Cuban site with a direct link to a segment of Sicko right there on the page:

http://media-tv-roundtable.cubasi.cu/

So, for whatever reason, the author of the cable was either mistaken, or he lied. End of story.

But even if it were not, and the care in Cuba really was terrible (which would open up an even greater mystery, as to how they are accomplishing these increases in life expectancy, infant mortality rates, etc. which have been verified by, among others, the CIA; this information is available in their World Factbook), this would in no way argue against “government health care,” as it also outperforms private health care in the rest of the world.

Here is a link to an article which compares 7 countries and their health care systems. Surprise, surprise, ours is not only the least efficient, but we don’t even manage to cover everyone:

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2009/05/are_patients_in_universal_heal.php

But, ZEB, I know you’ll ignore all of this painful data, and then later insist that I haven’t posted any. I’d expect nothing less from a right-winger; you guys have to have your own parallel universe cable news network, newspapers, schools, and think-tanks, so I’m not suffering under the illusion that you have any interest at all in examining data and drawing reasonable conclusions.

Yea, Cuba, is a real gem.

Why else do their people risk their lives on a fucking makeshift raft to get here?

They must be crazy to leave such a paradise.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Yea, Cuba, is a real gem.

Why else do their people risk their lives on a fucking makeshift raft to get here?

They must be crazy to leave such a paradise. [/quote]

My man Max.

Cutt’n through the PWI BS on a daily basis.[/quote]

Something I learned in the joint Chushin… I believe half of what I see and nothing of what I hear.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Yea, Cuba, is a real gem.

Why else do their people risk their lives on a fucking makeshift raft to get here?

They must be crazy to leave such a paradise. [/quote]

Less people leave Cuba every year than leave the Bahamas, the Dominican Republic, Jamaica, or Mexico. All of which are, of course, capitalist countries. None of these, by the way, suffer under a total economic embargo, as does Cuba. They must really be shitholes because of capitalism, according to your logic.

So continue to stick your fingers in your ears if you want to, it doesn’t bother me; but don’t ever get on here again and complain about the Left/Democrats ignoring facts.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:That’s funny, little Ryan P. McCarter says that the Cuban system is a virtual utopia and is by far better than the US. Go figure, I guess he’s never been there and socialist authors can say what they like.
[/quote]

Ahaha!!! What happened to you in the other thread, ZEB? Did I hurt your feelings too bad? I sowwy. But, I’m about to do it again:

First of all, I never said that it was a utopia; that’s just you trying to avoid a debate (which you know you’d lose) by setting up a false standard that is easily defeated. What I and others have said, is that Cuba’s achievements are impressive, especially considering the blockade of their country by the United States, which not only prevents US citizens from spending money in Cuba, US businesses from doing business with Cuba, foreign subsidiaries of US businesses from doing business with Cuba, but also gives the US the power to sue any company anywhere that does business with Cuba.

Now, on to the actual substance of the cable. Perhaps no one has read Moore’s article that was linked to earlier, but it not only contains a link to another official secret cable from 1961 that we now know to be utterly false

and which therefore makes all subsequent US cables regarding Cuba liable to doubt, but it actually links to several sources that incontrovertibly repudiate the assertions made in the cable. Here is a Cuban article about Sicko which states explicitly that it had been broadcast on Cuban television:

Here is a stub containing information about the broadcast of Sicko on the Cuban educational channel:

And here is a Cuban site with a direct link to a segment of Sicko right there on the page:

http://media-tv-roundtable.cubasi.cu/

So, for whatever reason, the author of the cable was either mistaken, or he lied. End of story.

But even if it were not, and the care in Cuba really was terrible (which would open up an even greater mystery, as to how they are accomplishing these increases in life expectancy, infant mortality rates, etc. which have been verified by, among others, the CIA; this information is available in their World Factbook), this would in no way argue against “government health care,” as it also outperforms private health care in the rest of the world.

Here is a link to an article which compares 7 countries and their health care systems. Surprise, surprise, ours is not only the least efficient, but we don’t even manage to cover everyone:

http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2009/05/are_patients_in_universal_heal.php

But, ZEB, I know you’ll ignore all of this painful data, and then later insist that I haven’t posted any. I’d expect nothing less from a right-winger; you guys have to have your own parallel universe cable news network, newspapers, schools, and think-tanks, so I’m not suffering under the illusion that you have any interest at all in examining data and drawing reasonable conclusions.

[/quote]

all this shit falls on deaf ears for someone who STILL HAS FAMILY IN CUBA

you really are a bunch of ignorant motherfuckers aren’t you all?

you can pull facts from wikipedia all you want, but it dont mean shit to somebody who knows better.

I was LOLing at the cuban part of Sicko (though actually I enjoyed the movie, and much of what I saw in the movie was to me, somebody in the health care field, actually very true)

but the Cuban part? give me a break.

the scene where they bought a bunch of respiratory inhalers for just a few dollars, well, idiots, when the average monthly salary of a Cuban is only a few dollars a month, those drugs are just as out of reach to the average Cuban as they are to the average American who is out of work and has no insurance.

I should get my uncle to post over here about the “secret phone numbers” the communist elite use in Cuba to get goods and services that the average Cuban cannot even thing about having.

HT,

You are talking to Ryan, a guy who has never traveled a day in his fat life, never seen shit with his own bleeding eyes, and relies on more than questionable sources for the basis of his opinion.

I thought I should make you aware of the caliber of greatness you are in the presence of, namely his greatness.

This is a guy who has been truly e-battle tested.

Humble thyself my friend :slight_smile:

Cuba sucks. Anyone that believes their propaganda is a damn fool.

[quote]CubanMeat32 wrote:
That movie Sicko was not accurate. There are always these statistics that sound nice regarinding Cuba, such as their literacy rate, and how many doctors there are per person in Cuba. It all sounds rosy, it is not. Communism works in theory, that country is in bad fucking shape, i have seen it with my own eyes. I encourage people not to believe anything positive that they hear about Cuban social policies, it is just not true.[/quote]

No, no, no… I don’t believe you Cuban. Why should I? After all, you have been there. You most likely have family there. Why in the world would I believe a man who has probably stomped on terra firma Cubana, when I have Ryan who has read stupid bullshit in books, magazines, and juggled the nuts of someone like Michael Moore?

Carajo !

Where is Ryan with his horseshit, to rebuke a man who has fucking been there, and seen with his own fat eyes.

Haha, max.

BTW I posted on page 1 about a certain Cuban friend telling me some the real biznaz on Cuba. CubanMeat is that dude.

[quote]heavythrower wrote:all this shit falls on deaf ears for someone who STILL HAS FAMILY IN CUBA

you really are a bunch of ignorant motherfuckers aren’t you all?

you can pull facts from wikipedia all you want, but it dont mean shit to somebody who knows better.

I was LOLing at the cuban part of Sicko (though actually I enjoyed the movie, and much of what I saw in the movie was to me, somebody in the health care field, actually very true)

but the Cuban part? give me a break.

the scene where they bought a bunch of respiratory inhalers for just a few dollars, well, idiots, when the average monthly salary of a Cuban is only a few dollars a month, those drugs are just as out of reach to the average Cuban as they are to the average American who is out of work and has no insurance.

I should get my uncle to post over here about the “secret phone numbers” the communist elite use in Cuba to get goods and services that the average Cuban cannot even thing about having. [/quote]

I’m sorry, I just now saw this.

Here’s the deal: believe whatever you want. You obviously will no matter what happens in the real world. But don’t come on here making 6th grade logical mistakes and expect me to apologize because you’re a moron.

I don’t give a shit what any one says, anecdotes mean nothing, and if you understand anything at all about statistics, you know why anecdotes are less than worthless.

So we’ve got a Cuban on here, to tell us the truth about the awful Cuban health system. How convenient. Let’s ignore the face that many other Cubans will tell you far different stories about the care they have received, and let’s ignore the fact that statistics support these other people and not our friend here. We want the Cuban health system to be awful, that’s what we want to hear, and so we’ll ignore all the other facts and take this one gentleman’s word for it, and anyone who actually attempts to use their brain in this case is ridiculed. That’s all fine, conservatives do it every day. I could readily find people who will tell you stories about friends and family members who have died in the US because their insurer refused to pay for their medical expenses, and I could find people who have gone to Canada to get treatment they could not in the US. Again, it happens every day, and yet you don’t seem to care about these people, even though there are far more of these complaints than there are about Cuba. I wonder why that is?

But UNTIL you get your shit together, and at least pretend to argue honestly, don’t try to take me task. Or if you do, please explain how this massive conspiracy, participated in by the UN and the CIA (who don’t dispute the impressive statistics regarding Cuba), was put into place, because that is what you are suggesting is happening.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]CubanMeat32 wrote:
That movie Sicko was not accurate. There are always these statistics that sound nice regarinding Cuba, such as their literacy rate, and how many doctors there are per person in Cuba. It all sounds rosy, it is not. Communism works in theory, that country is in bad fucking shape, i have seen it with my own eyes. I encourage people not to believe anything positive that they hear about Cuban social policies, it is just not true.[/quote]

No, no, no… I don’t believe you Cuban. Why should I? After all, you have been there. You most likely have family there. Why in the world would I believe a man who has probably stomped on terra firma Cubana, when I have Ryan who has read stupid bullshit in books, magazines, and juggled the nuts of someone like Michael Moore?

Carajo !

Where is Ryan with his horseshit, to rebuke a man who has fucking been there, and seen with his own fat eyes. [/quote]

Oh my! He has been there! Well, I guess that shows me, because everyone knows, if you’ve actually been to any place, that of course means that you collected enough detailed information to make statistically valid assertions about the country, its economy, its health care, and hell, everything else. I was in Europe briefly when I was 14. Therefore, I am an expert on that part of the world, I know how this works.

Thanks for letting everyone know what’s up, Max!

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]CubanMeat32 wrote:
That movie Sicko was not accurate. There are always these statistics that sound nice regarinding Cuba, such as their literacy rate, and how many doctors there are per person in Cuba. It all sounds rosy, it is not. Communism works in theory, that country is in bad fucking shape, i have seen it with my own eyes. I encourage people not to believe anything positive that they hear about Cuban social policies, it is just not true.[/quote]

No, no, no… I don’t believe you Cuban. Why should I? After all, you have been there. You most likely have family there. Why in the world would I believe a man who has probably stomped on terra firma Cubana, when I have Ryan who has read stupid bullshit in books, magazines, and juggled the nuts of someone like Michael Moore?

Carajo !

Where is Ryan with his horseshit, to rebuke a man who has fucking been there, and seen with his own fat eyes. [/quote]

Oh my! He has been there! Well, I guess that shows me, because everyone knows, if you’ve actually been to any place, that of course means that you collected enough detailed information to make statistically valid assertions about the country, its economy, its health care, and hell, everything else. I’ve was in Europe briefly when I was 14. Therefore, I am an expert on that part of the world, I know how this works.

Thanks for letting everyone know what’s up, Max![/quote]

Right, because having actually seen things for yourself is sooooooooo overrated.

You have people here who are from Cuba, have family in Cuba, lived in Cuba, yet scoff at the notion that they might actually know better ?

Stepping foot in a place is not the same as having a cultural connection to it. I have been to Denmark, yet I am not Danish for shit. I was born and lived in Italy for a good portion of my life. I know the language, culture, and customs. THIS is what makes me an expert about it, stop living your life in books, movies, and media.

Uh, yes, I scoff at the notion they might know better about the whole country. This kind of sloppy-ass thinking is why conservatives are made fun of.

How about this: if I find a US citizen who claims that US has a terrible healthcare system, because a doctor here screwed up a procedure and killed a family member, will you agree that we have a terrible health care system? If not, then you’ve got some major spin to apply.

Let me know when you’ve found out what “in the aggregate” means.

No Ryan, he knows the in and outs, what you are preaching is nothing but theory where stats are easily manipulated. They know the system and the game of what is real not of what is reported.
My parents are from Mexico and I have spent many summers there and I know the system down there on who to pay off, what doctor takes cash, I know which bridge is safe to cross, what small town not to cross thru cause of family rivalry.

I just find it hard to believe that there are people as naive as you. Shit take your ass to Cuba, also when you state about less Cubans coming over is because there government does not want them to come here so they have a more aggressive anti-leaving out country stance. Where as the other places let you go because it is your natural right due to capitalism.

[quote]jre67t wrote:
No Ryan, he knows the in and outs, what you are preaching is nothing but theory where stats are easily manipulated.[/quote]

No, he knows what has happened to him. That’s it. He’s imminently qualified to talk about his own experience, but it means absolutely 0 when we’re talking about the entire health care system as a whole, because no person can “experience” the entire health care system, which obviously involved thousands and thousands of people. This is necessarily the domain of statistics, and the statistics are clear: the Cuban health system delivers excellent results on the average.

While it is true that statistics can be manipulated, you:

  1. provide no evidence whatsoever that the statistics have actually been tampered with; you simply assume this, because it’s what you want to hear. Could a person possibly reach a more obviously biased conclusion?

  2. don’t explain why the CIA, of all people, participates in this falsification, as they report the same things–very impressive results since the Revolution that rival any other nation in the Caribbean, and even the US in some cases.

[quote]They know the system and the game of what is real not of what is reported.
My parents are from Mexico and I have spent many summers there and I know the system down there on who to pay off, what doctor takes cash, I know which bridge is safe to cross, what small town not to cross thru cause of family rivalry.[/quote]

That’s great, I’m very proud of you, but have your experiences taught you the average mortality rate? The average life expectancy? What percentage of an average citizen’s income goes toward medical bills? Of course it hasn’t, but this is the sort of thing we’re talking about, and so none of your experience means anything. Wrong discussion.

Wrong again. It’s illegal for me to move to Cuba, while Cubans can legally come here easily.

Take this in: your entire post is wrong, and you are calling me naive. Rethink things, admitting an error is nothing to be ashamed of.