Law School?

Off Topic
21

If you know for certain that you want to be in a certain area, going to a school in that area isn’t a bad choice - even if it means going to a school ranked nominally lower in the US News rankings.

Now, I’m not saying that if you want to be in San Diego you should turn down Harvard to go to Thomas Jefferson, but if you’re choosing among schools in a particular tier – and really tier 3 and tier 4 are indistinguishable to most people (read that as most employers) – choose the one that has the largest number of alumni working in your area (which will almost certainly be a local school).

That way local employers will be comfortable with your school, and if you finish in the top 10% you’ll probably find a job relatively easily.

As others have said, keep in mind why you want to be a lawyer – most law firm jobs aren’t overflowing with opportunities to get warm fuzzies from clients. If you do litigation, not even your own clients are happy to see you because you’re the walking embodiment of some lawsuit.

If you do transactional work, most businesspeople view you as a necessary evil to be endured - or maybe, if you’re lucky, a hard-working person who can add just a little value to some small piece of a transaction.

22

[quote]Smitty88 wrote:

I think you should go to Law School. We don’t quite have enough lawyers and every one knows that the more lawyers we have the better off we are. On the whole lawyers do so much good stuff for society.

That’s quite a goal you have there, good luck.
[/quote]

Look at Boston Barrister’s post in light of this one. You can assume that many of your clients have this kind of enlightened attitude towards lawyers. He’s probably posting from a prison library, but still . . .

23

[quote]Skuebb wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:

I think you should go to Law School. We don’t quite have enough lawyers and every one knows that the more lawyers we have the better off we are. On the whole lawyers do so much good stuff for society.

That’s quite a goal you have there, good luck.

Look at Boston Barrister’s post in light of this one. You can assume that many of your clients have this kind of enlightened attitude towards lawyers. He’s probably posting from a prison library, but still . . .

[/quote]

After reading your homophobic statement about Tiki Barber I’m not surprised that you would come up with something like this.

Another message board hero. LOL

If you think that the US needs more lawyers then knock yourself out. Become one if your not already and encourage others to go to law school. I think that we need less lawyers.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion here. So naturally you would start berating me.

Typical reaction from either a lawyer or an asswipe like yourself.

Hold on…I guess there’s not much difference between the two for the most part.

24

[quote]Smitty88 wrote:
Skuebb wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:

I think you should go to Law School. We don’t quite have enough lawyers and every one knows that the more lawyers we have the better off we are. On the whole lawyers do so much good stuff for society.

That’s quite a goal you have there, good luck.

Look at Boston Barrister’s post in light of this one. You can assume that many of your clients have this kind of enlightened attitude towards lawyers. He’s probably posting from a prison library, but still . . .

After reading your homophobic statement about Tiki Barber I’m not surprised that you would come up with something like this.

Another message board hero. LOL

If you think that the US needs more lawyers then knock yourself out. Become one if your not already and encourage others to go to law school. I think that we need less lawyers.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion here. So naturally you would start berating me.

Typical reaction from either a lawyer or an asswipe like yourself.

Hold on…I guess there’s not much difference between the two for the most part.

[/quote]

You didn’t offer an opinion on anything remotely useful to the OP or anyone else. In fact, you clearly did not read much of the thread, or you would have some idea of my earlier post. The OP wasn’t interested in your opinion on whether the world has enough lawyers. You offered a sarcastic, irrelevant diversion to a somewhat serious thread. And I am now officially having a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

25

[quote]Skuebb wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:
Skuebb wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:

I think you should go to Law School. We don’t quite have enough lawyers and every one knows that the more lawyers we have the better off we are. On the whole lawyers do so much good stuff for society.

That’s quite a goal you have there, good luck.

Look at Boston Barrister’s post in light of this one. You can assume that many of your clients have this kind of enlightened attitude towards lawyers. He’s probably posting from a prison library, but still . . .

After reading your homophobic statement about Tiki Barber I’m not surprised that you would come up with something like this.

Another message board hero. LOL

If you think that the US needs more lawyers then knock yourself out. Become one if your not already and encourage others to go to law school. I think that we need less lawyers.

We have a fundamental difference of opinion here. So naturally you would start berating me.

Typical reaction from either a lawyer or an asswipe like yourself.

Hold on…I guess there’s not much difference between the two for the most part.

You didn’t offer an opinion on anything remotely useful to the OP or anyone else. In fact, you clearly did not read much of the thread, or you would have some idea of my earlier post. The OP wasn’t interested in your opinion on whether the world has enough lawyers. You offered a sarcastic, irrelevant diversion to a somewhat serious thread. And I am now officially having a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
[/quote]

Back in law school I took a course in international trade law from a guy who was a practitioner - he was up to date on the most current developments in the area. Back then, in the early 90s, there was a big buzz about expanding trade with China. Based on this prof’s conversations with his own clients and other practitioners, the biggest impediment to trade with Chinese company’s was the lack of an established system of commercial law in that country. That’s right - people wanted more laws.

I’ll be the first to say that compliance with laws and regulations can be a big pain. But in the end, law provides order and predictability. And a good lawyer will help you get through that system of laws and regulations. There’ll always be bad apples - every profession has those - and they’re the ones that spoil it for those of us who are honest and work hard at what we do.

26

I am currently a 1L at a top school and all I can say to you is good luck. Read Law School Confidential. It will help you a lot and give you a realistic idea of what you are in for. As far as the LSAT is concerned, a 164 will get you looks from a lot of schools IF you can write. Every statement you make in your app. will be read by people who know what they are looking for in a student.
Also, apply to as many schools as you can and take advantage of early admits when schools have them. I was surprised what schools said no, maybe, and yes to me. Some “no’s” were from schools rated way below “yes’s.”

27

Here’s my advice:

Go to the best law school you get accepted to is good advice, with certain caveats. I was lucky enough to score very high on the LSAT and had a high undergrad GPA, so I was accepted into some very good schools (UCLA and Michigan). I chose to go to UC Davis because of the lower cost of living while in school because I had three kids and a wife and no parents to pay the way. I got many job offers out of law school from big firms, but chose to go to a medium sized firm before joining a huge international firm as a lateral. I now work for a smaller firm and have established a successful niche as an appellate lawyer.

Not going to the best school I could has worked well for me, but it has limited me somewhat. I am an appellate lawyer and in appellate law scholarly reputation is often looked upon by the people I target for business (trial lawyers). I am sure I have lost potential business because I did not attend UCLA or Michigan. You need to think long-term in deciding which school to attend, because what you think you want to do in entering law school is likely to be very different from what you do upon graduating law school. Unless you are like the poster who always wanted to be a DA and became one, you likely will end up changing your direction throughout law school and your first few years in practice. Almost every lawyer friend I have has changed their career goals from what they were upon starting law school. Going to a great law school keeps your options open. Keep those things in mind as you choose.

28

[quote]Skuebb wrote:

You didn’t offer an opinion on anything remotely useful to the OP or anyone else. In fact, you clearly did not read much of the thread, or you would have some idea of my earlier post. The OP wasn’t interested in your opinion on whether the world has enough lawyers. You offered a sarcastic, irrelevant diversion to a somewhat serious thread. [/quote]

That you think your comments are somehow relevant is one of the more entertaining statements of this or any other thread.

That you fail to understand that when someone posts on a message board he should be aware that anyone (even those that disagree with the premise to begin with) may comment, is another funny one.

[quote] And I am now officially having a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
[/quote]

And if you can’t do better than that tired old metaphor you need to just stop posting, as your mental abilities probably match your moral standing (if you’re a lawyer that is).

Write back soon, going back and forth like this is quite helpful to the original poster.

I’d call you an ass clown, but I have too much respect for rear ends.

29

If you really make a big deal of yourself in law school - professional attitude, intelligent questions, good grades - you will be put on the fast track at whatever institution you go to. In other words, of the people there, you will have the best opportunites, which will be similar to the opportunites of the average student at the best schools. Firms will wine and dine you. Just be one of the 10 or 20 top students.

The people who have just come out of undergrad who enter law school tend to be the ones who ask questions just to look smart, want to hear themselves talk, etc. Don’t be one of them. Act professional, check and see how the older, more experienced students in your class behave and emulate them.

Do your work, do your reading, and don’t try to impress your professors - they’ve seen it all before. What I mean by that is this: it is fine to get good grades, etc, but don’t try to ask a question you already have the answer to, or worse, try to prove the professor wrong (usually you end up being wrong and just look stupid). Let me be clear - it’s one thing to ask for something to be clarified. It’s one thing to discuss it with a professor privately. I’m not arguing against healthy intellectual skepticism. It’s just another thing entirely to waste everyone’s time in class by bringing up stuff to dispute the professor only to be shot down.

On the other hand, are you really sure you are interested in law? You say that you have know this was your area for some time, but if that is true, why do you have a 3.2? I’m NOT trying to rag on you… and I don’t know you, so I obviously can’t judge. I’m just saying that maybe you should take a second glance as to how serious you are about it.

30

[quote]Smitty88 wrote:
Skuebb wrote:

You didn’t offer an opinion on anything remotely useful to the OP or anyone else. In fact, you clearly did not read much of the thread, or you would have some idea of my earlier post. The OP wasn’t interested in your opinion on whether the world has enough lawyers. You offered a sarcastic, irrelevant diversion to a somewhat serious thread.

That you think your comments are somehow relevant is one of the more entertaining statements of this or any other thread.

That you fail to understand that when someone posts on a message board he should be aware that anyone (even those that disagree with the premise to begin with) may comment, is another funny one.

And I am now officially having a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

And if you can’t do better than that tired old metaphor you need to just stop posting, as your mental abilities probably match your moral standing (if you’re a lawyer that is).

Write back soon, going back and forth like this is quite helpful to the original poster.

I’d call you an ass clown, but I have too much respect for rear ends.[/quote]

You know, you’re right - this IS helpful. As I pointed out, the OP can expect this kind of horseshit from a fair number of clients. The ass clown/ rear ends comment was really impressive - urbane yet inane. Now I’m finished with this conversation.

31

Law school is a good idea, if…

  1. You like to write.

  2. You like to argue.

  3. You can argue along with liking to argue.

  4. Are intellectually curious about a really wide range of topics.

Of the lawyers I know, the ones that aren’t happy or don’t do well fail those four categories, especially the last two. It is not enough to like to argue - there are plenty of people who claim to like to argue - you have to be pretty good at it, I think, or likely people will think you are just someone who stuck out a few exams and they gave a law degree. Don’t be that guy.

Also, the most miserable guy I know that went the law school route was a guy that was very passionate about environmental issues, so much that he wanted to do environmental law as a practice for his career. But he had little interest in all the other foundational aspects of the law - he couldn’t care less about contracts, procedures, or how corporations were organized. And no matter what your passion, you can’t be any good - even in the field that really drives you - if you don’t have the intellectual curiosity to take a strong interest in all the other things. You have to think all that other stuff is worthy of your study if you want to be any good.

Good luck.

32

Good post, Thunderbolt. There’s a lot you can use your law degree for. But you won’t be happy if you don’t feel like you like some important fundamental aspects of the law.

33

[quote]Skuebb wrote:
Smitty88 wrote:
Skuebb wrote:

You didn’t offer an opinion on anything remotely useful to the OP or anyone else. In fact, you clearly did not read much of the thread, or you would have some idea of my earlier post. The OP wasn’t interested in your opinion on whether the world has enough lawyers. You offered a sarcastic, irrelevant diversion to a somewhat serious thread.

That you think your comments are somehow relevant is one of the more entertaining statements of this or any other thread.

That you fail to understand that when someone posts on a message board he should be aware that anyone (even those that disagree with the premise to begin with) may comment, is another funny one.

And I am now officially having a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

And if you can’t do better than that tired old metaphor you need to just stop posting, as your mental abilities probably match your moral standing (if you’re a lawyer that is).

Write back soon, going back and forth like this is quite helpful to the original poster.

I’d call you an ass clown, but I have too much respect for rear ends.

You know, you’re right - this IS helpful. As I pointed out, the OP can expect this kind of horseshit from a fair number of clients. The ass clown/ rear ends comment was really impressive - urbane yet inane. Now I’m finished with this conversation. [/quote]

LOL…you were “finished” shortly after you started sparky.

34

[quote]MSpencer wrote:
I am currently a 1L at a top school and all I can say to you is good luck. Read Law School Confidential. It will help you a lot and give you a realistic idea of what you are in for. As far as the LSAT is concerned, a 164 will get you looks from a lot of schools IF you can write. Every statement you make in your app. will be read by people who know what they are looking for in a student.
Also, apply to as many schools as you can and take advantage of early admits when schools have them. I was surprised what schools said no, maybe, and yes to me. Some “no’s” were from schools rated way below “yes’s.” [/quote]

Those schools gamed the system – part of the US News rankings are acceptance rate – so if they think you are using them as a safety school they ding you.

I believe I read something about admin folks at one school getting the records of another highly ranked school and seeing which of its own applicants had done early admin for that other school, and then dinging them.

35

I am currently in law school, so PM me if you have specific questions. I should say that I go to a top law school, so I am a bit biased, but I think you should absolutely go to the best law school you can. I can tell you from meeting students who go to various schools tha the job options at the very top (Harvard, Columbia, Virginia, Michigan, Georgetown, Cornell, Berkeley, NYU, etc.) are much better than schools not that far below (and still Tier 1/2; schools such as Maryland, American, USD, Hastings, etc.).

36

[quote]youngoldguy wrote:
I am currently in law school, so PM me if you have specific questions. I should say that I go to a top law school, so I am a bit biased, but I think you should absolutely go to the best law school you can.

I can tell you from meeting students who go to various schools that the job options at the very top (Harvard, Columbia, Virginia, Michigan, Georgetown, Cornell, Berkeley, NYU, etc.) are much better than schools not that far below (and still Tier 1/2; schools such as Maryland, American, USD, Hastings, etc.). [/quote]

I’d agree with you in regards to jobs right out of law school, which can set the tone for the rest of your career. That said, I attended American WCL and am now in a job (in-house counsel) that some might have said would not be possible absent going to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc…

Being a lawyer is like any other career – it’s what you make it. One of my former law school classmates is now a premiere Supreme Court litigator (Tom Goldstein).

Others have gone on to become GCs of $100 million plus corporations, partners in major firms, and top Federal/State prosecutors. The main difference between them and others is that they had the drive and ambition to never settle for less than they wanted.

In sum, go to the best law school you can, but always keep in mind that your success as a lawyer is mostly up to you.

37

Other than for prosecutors, there are too many lawyers in this country already. They have made a royal mess of our civil law process. Do something useful with your life. Go to medical school. Go to trash collectors school. Become a steroid dealer. Anything but a lawyer. :slight_smile:

38

[quote]Sting wrote:
youngoldguy wrote:
I am currently in law school, so PM me if you have specific questions. I should say that I go to a top law school, so I am a bit biased, but I think you should absolutely go to the best law school you can.

I can tell you from meeting students who go to various schools that the job options at the very top (Harvard, Columbia, Virginia, Michigan, Georgetown, Cornell, Berkeley, NYU, etc.) are much better than schools not that far below (and still Tier 1/2; schools such as Maryland, American, USD, Hastings, etc.).

I’d agree with you in regards to jobs right out of law school, which can set the tone for the rest of your career. That said, I attended American WCL and am now in a job (in-house counsel) that some might have said would not be possible absent going to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc…

Being a lawyer is like any other career – it’s what you make it. One of my former law school classmates is now a premiere Supreme Court litigator (Tom Goldstein).

Others have gone on to become GCs of $100 million plus corporations, partners in major firms, and top Federal/State prosecutors. The main difference between them and others is that they had the drive and ambition to never settle for less than they wanted.

In sum, go to the best law school you can, but always keep in mind that your success as a lawyer is mostly up to you.[/quote]

I think we agree on basically what I said - I just want to make sure that you don’t think I was dissing any of those schools. I totally agree that a career in law is what you make of it, and that a law school that is perceived as better does not necessarily produce better lawyers.

Unfortunately, in my opinion anyway, private legal employment is driven by prestige: students at higher ranked (i.e., prestigious) schools often get the better jobs right out of school, and those better jobs often lead to better exit options. The cards are stacked (again in my opinion) against students who don’t attend prestigious schools insofar as getting a foot in the door.

But it’s possible as you point out. I just think in the end one should, if possible, make it as easy on themselves as they can to get where they want to be the quickets.

39

[quote]youngoldguy wrote:
I am currently in law school, so PM me if you have specific questions. I should say that I go to a top law school, so I am a bit biased, but I think you should absolutely go to the best law school you can. I can tell you from meeting students who go to various schools tha the job options at the very top (Harvard, Columbia, Virginia, Michigan, Georgetown, Cornell, Berkeley, NYU, etc.) are much better than schools not that far below (and still Tier 1/2; schools such as Maryland, American, USD, Hastings, etc.). [/quote]

I think you’re right in that if you get into a top 25 school, you go there – and if you get in a top 10 school, you go there over number 15. Top 10 is gold for jobs (read that as large private firm and prestigious federal government positions) - top 25 is still pretty damn good.

But if you’re telling me someone should choose number 30 over number 45, I’m not so sure. Absent a “top 25” school, I think other factors take larger importance - particularly geography and affordability. If you want to be a local prosecutor or DA or something, affordability should be a very high consideration indeed…

40

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
youngoldguy wrote:
I am currently in law school, so PM me if you have specific questions. I should say that I go to a top law school, so I am a bit biased, but I think you should absolutely go to the best law school you can. I can tell you from meeting students who go to various schools tha the job options at the very top (Harvard, Columbia, Virginia, Michigan, Georgetown, Cornell, Berkeley, NYU, etc.) are much better than schools not that far below (and still Tier 1/2; schools such as Maryland, American, USD, Hastings, etc.).

I think you’re right in that if you get into a top 25 school, you go there – and if you get in a top 10 school, you go there over number 15. Top 10 is gold for jobs (read that as large private firm and prestigious federal government positions) - top 25 is still pretty damn good.

But if you’re telling me someone should choose number 30 over number 45, I’m not so sure. Absent a “top 25” school, I think other factors take larger importance - particularly geography and affordability. If you want to be a local prosecutor or DA or something, affordability should be a very high consideration indeed…
[/quote]

Ditto what he said. You’re going to have a lot of expenditures the next 3 years, and most likely little to no income. You have no idea what a $5 hamburger or a $20 ticket to a ballgame truly costs you until you don’t have a way to replenish the funds.

I just graduated from a TX law school and passed the bar here in TX.

I don’t remember where you lived but you might want to consider going to school there if that’s where you want to practice. I quit my job and went to school in another city some 4.5 hours away. While it was great in terms of personal development to go somewhere new, new friends, new ideas, new church, new gym etc etc etc I always felt my job searching/networking was kind of hamstrung by being in Ft. Worth half the time and Houston half the time. Now that bar results are in I feel as though I’m starting my job search kind of flatfooted. Just something for you to ponder, of course if you get in to top level school there is a certain level of universal acceptance.

One really important thing here in TX and probably where you are as well, surprised noone has mentioned it, but look at bar passage rate of the school you are looking at. There are 9 accredited law schools in TX and they rank from stellar to abysmal (Baylor had 97.87 this last time, whereas Texas Southern was 56.56%). If you don’t pass you are basically dead in the water for 6-9 months and of course have to take it again. The passage rate goes way down for repeat takers. Baylor in particular has a program for 3rd year students that not only gets them ready for certain parts of the bar but also has them ready to do anything court related. Unfortunately I didn’t go to Baylor.

I wish you luck and feel free to PM me.