T Nation

Lateral Delts- Push or Pull?

The title says it all really- would you put lateral delt work like URRs and lat raises on a ‘‘push’’ day (i.e. OHP, bench, dips, triceps work) or a ‘‘pull’’ day (i.e. chins, BOR, lat pulldowns, biceps work)?

Breaking it down, URRs for example seem to work dominantly ‘pull’ muscles- biceps and traps, so I think my gut instinct wold be to put them on ‘pull’ day.

I would put them on a day of there own and avoid all confusion

Day 1: Legs
Day 2: Push
Day 3: Pull
Day 4: Lateral Raise

Why the hell would someone structure their program like this? Despite the hoards of potential responses like, “I made great progress”, I am betting few will show that they actually built impressive size by doing this long term. Why not focus on muscle groups at this point? Why do all shoulder, chest, triceps work in one day?

I also can’t tell if the previous poster was even joking or not. I train shoulders on FUCKING SHOULDER DAY. I do believe THAT avoids all confusion.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I also can’t tell if the previous poster was even joking or not. I train shoulders on FUCKING SHOULDER DAY. I do believe THAT avoids all confusion.[/quote]

I don’t know why he should be joking, reading some authors here on this site it seems like balancing push and pull movements is something to consider when trying to keep shoulder health and avoiding imbalances.

I never really trained like that either but maybe that’s what the op is going for.

So anyway, op, it does make more sense to consider lateral delts as “push”.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why the hell would someone structure their program like this? Despite the hoards of potential responses like, “I made great progress”, I am betting few will show that they actually built impressive size by doing this long term. Why not focus on muscle groups at this point? Why do all shoulder, chest, triceps work in one day?

I also can’t tell if the previous poster was even joking or not. I train shoulders on FUCKING SHOULDER DAY. I do believe THAT avoids all confusion.[/quote]

Lol, yeah I’m pretty sure the previous poster was being sarcastic.

Anyway, I agree with you… but even if he does do a push/pull split, he’s worried about putting a pull exercise on a push day and vice versa, as if that would somehow ruin the entire routine, it’s ridiculous.

[quote]babaganoosh wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why the hell would someone structure their program like this? Despite the hoards of potential responses like, “I made great progress”, I am betting few will show that they actually built impressive size by doing this long term. Why not focus on muscle groups at this point? Why do all shoulder, chest, triceps work in one day?

I also can’t tell if the previous poster was even joking or not. I train shoulders on FUCKING SHOULDER DAY. I do believe THAT avoids all confusion.[/quote]

Lol, yeah I’m pretty sure the previous poster was being sarcastic.

Anyway, I agree with you… but even if he does do a push/pull split, he’s worried about putting a pull exercise on a push day and vice versa, as if that would somehow ruin the entire routine, it’s ridiculous.[/quote]
And this mentality says enough about his experience. If you have the experience with something that works for you in the long term, this means you should have the size to back this up. And something non trivial like this shouldn’t even matter.

Paralysis by analysis.

[quote]babaganoosh wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why the hell would someone structure their program like this? Despite the hoards of potential responses like, “I made great progress”, I am betting few will show that they actually built impressive size by doing this long term. Why not focus on muscle groups at this point? Why do all shoulder, chest, triceps work in one day?

I also can’t tell if the previous poster was even joking or not. I train shoulders on FUCKING SHOULDER DAY. I do believe THAT avoids all confusion.[/quote]

Lol, yeah I’m pretty sure the previous poster was being sarcastic.

Anyway, I agree with you… but even if he does do a push/pull split, he’s worried about putting a pull exercise on a push day and vice versa, as if that would somehow ruin the entire routine, it’s ridiculous.[/quote]

Unfortunately, I can’t recall anyone but myself ever pointing out the folly of thinking that the target muscles being trained care in the slightest whether the hands are experiencing pull on the fingers or push on the palms.

E.g., the lower back does not care whether a barbell is being pushed by the traps, or whether it is being pulled by the hands.

The medial delts don’t care whether the hands are pushing or pulling either.

Neither do the hamstrings or the glutes, etc.

Or while the most common way of training the traps involves pulling with the hands, there are effective trap exercises where one pushes a barbell or yoke on the shoulders. The difference – push vs pull – which makes no difference shouldn’t move the exercise to a different day.

There are probably many other examples.

You decide a split according to what works well for you or have good reason to think will work well and so you want to try it; and if designing your own, planning is much aided by understanding what muscles are being worked.

But figuring from whether the hands are pushing or pulling is basing things on only a rough clue.

I’d say Pull.

If you’re doing them on a machine then it’s ‘like’ a push, except you’re basically doing upright rows which are a pull motion.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]babaganoosh wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Why the hell would someone structure their program like this? Despite the hoards of potential responses like, “I made great progress”, I am betting few will show that they actually built impressive size by doing this long term. Why not focus on muscle groups at this point? Why do all shoulder, chest, triceps work in one day?

I also can’t tell if the previous poster was even joking or not. I train shoulders on FUCKING SHOULDER DAY. I do believe THAT avoids all confusion.[/quote]

Lol, yeah I’m pretty sure the previous poster was being sarcastic.

Anyway, I agree with you… but even if he does do a push/pull split, he’s worried about putting a pull exercise on a push day and vice versa, as if that would somehow ruin the entire routine, it’s ridiculous.[/quote]

Unfortunately, I can’t recall anyone but myself ever pointing out the folly of thinking that the target muscles being trained care in the slightest whether the hands are experiencing pull on the fingers or push on the palms.

E.g., the lower back does not care whether a barbell is being pushed by the traps, or whether it is being pulled by the hands.

The medial delts don’t care whether the hands are pushing or pulling either.

Neither do the hamstrings or the glutes, etc.

Or while the most common way of training the traps involves pulling with the hands, there are effective trap exercises where one pushes a barbell or yoke on the shoulders. The difference – push vs pull – which makes no difference shouldn’t move the exercise to a different day.

There are probably many other examples.

You decide a split according to what works well for you or have good reason to think will work well and so you want to try it; and if designing your own, planning is much aided by understanding what muscles are being worked.

But figuring from whether the hands are pushing or pulling is basing things on only a rough clue.[/quote]

It is like they don’t even base building a routine on logic anymore. It is simply based on which program sounds the newest or the flashiest.

Being a personal trainer today must rely on whether you can make up dramatic new names for a program that will get your name out there.

To actually become confused enough to not know where to throw in lateral delts only shows how retardedly pseudo-scientific this crap as become when the biggest best built bodies are STILL trained with basic concepts of training.

Yeah…I was joking!

[quote]ridethecliche wrote:
I’d say Pull.

If you’re doing them on a machine then it’s ‘like’ a push, except you’re basically doing upright rows which are a pull motion. [/quote]

Just a note…if you actually think that matters, something is wrong.

I would just like to be the first in this thread to say “functional sarcoplasmic hypertrophy”.

Does that mean I can call “unfunctional strength”?

Urm… how about helping the OP guys instead of jumping aboard the superior ego train?

The help IS found in the pointing out that the basic idea is wrong and in being told to just do them on shoulder day rather than trying to analyze to a different conclusion.

The question – Are they push or pull? – is missing the point and instead the matter should be viewed completely differently, and failing to explain that would NOT be a help to the OP.

[quote]Maelstrom wrote:
Urm… how about helping the OP guys instead of jumping aboard the superior ego train?[/quote]

Wait, HOW does someone read this thread and arrive at the conclusion that no help was given?

Does this mean you don’t really want help but you just want someone tp tell you what you want to hear?

If the basic concept is flawed, why the hell would we go along with it?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ridethecliche wrote:
I’d say Pull.

If you’re doing them on a machine then it’s ‘like’ a push, except you’re basically doing upright rows which are a pull motion. [/quote]

Just a note…if you actually think that matters, something is wrong.[/quote]

I agree with you, but the OP’s working within a push/pull/legs split it seems so I’m trying to help him work within that. I see your point though.

haven’t checked the BB forum in a while…this is why. Do lateral raises on YOUR SHOULDER DAY and put a few days between your shoulder and chest day.

i’ve invented this round object and have been using it to transport object, it’s much less work than carrying them. i use fire to cook my meats as well. i are a smart mammal.

pull day? are you serious? it’s a shoulder movement. just put it with shoulders.

[quote]ridethecliche wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ridethecliche wrote:
I’d say Pull.

If you’re doing them on a machine then it’s ‘like’ a push, except you’re basically doing upright rows which are a pull motion. [/quote]

Just a note…if you actually think that matters, something is wrong.[/quote]

I agree with you, but the OP’s working within a push/pull/legs split it seems so I’m trying to help him work within that. I see your point though.
[/quote]

You still don’t get it. “Push” and “pull” are just words. What if it was called a Blue/Red/Legs split? Which day would lateral raises go on blue day or red day. See where I’m going with that. Re-read Bill’s post.