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Lat Development Question

Do you think barbell and dumbbell moves are enough for decent lat development? Has anyone put on good size without pull-ups or cables?
Personally,aside from pullovers,I could not make them feel much at all and even that is a fairly compound lift.

I personally rely on pulldowns for most part. I would not touch a chin bar.

Get to 10 reps a set of chins or pullups and I guarantee you’ll change your mind.

Why? What is the draw in avoiding certain pieces of equipment or exercises that have proven to be effective?

I just don’t get this mindset.

[quote]LUEshi wrote:
I personally rely on pulldowns for most part. I would not touch a chin bar.

Get to 10 reps a set of chins or pullups and I guarantee you’ll change your mind.[/quote]

Yep, I completely agree. Chins and pullups are the best exercises for lat development.

There is no excuse for not doing them, unless you are severely overweight or a 300lb behemot of pure muscle like Markus Ruhl, for instance xD.

Even if you carry quite some fat and find chins & pullups really difficult, you can always do them with bands as assistance for the movement.

Yeah but by doing sets of pull ups you can train more teres major - that can improve back width to a certain point.

Pullovers are bacically isolation movement and therefore inferior to compounds.

The only way to imitate movement similar to chin/pull with weights is to do arched bent over row - moving dumbell in arc-similar motion toward hips without actually rowing horizontally. It wont cover work that vertical rowing (pullups, chins) does and it wont be invoved as many muscle groups but it can work lats in a different fashion. And you can use more weight safetly unlike in pullovers (tipically finisher type high rep exercise).

Rack Chins… Rack Chins… More Rack Chins…

[quote]There is no excuse for not doing them, unless you are severely overweight or a 300lb behemot of pure muscle like Markus Ruhl, for instance xD.

Even if you carry quite some fat and find chins & pullups really difficult, you can always do them with bands as assistance for the movement.[/quote]

I used to be 235 and quite fat and I still did them. I just did 3 or 4 reps a set until I reached a certain number (20-30) and then I’d either add a set or more reps. When I stalled out I’d change my hand position. Occasionally for the first rep I’d “jump” up to the bar, but for the most part it was from a dead hang.

In my experience, pullups will do more for fat people than almost any other back exercise, simply because they’re so hard to do.

Only excuse for not doing them is because you already have quite a bit of meat on your back, imo. Nothing will get you wider quicker.

[quote]Why? What is the draw in avoiding certain pieces of equipment or exercises that have proven to be effective?

I just don’t get this mindset. [/quote]

When you see an advanced guy say he doesn’t do a certain movement, some people are going to follow what the person says…and ignore the fact that the advanced trainee did said movement for years until he was so big and strong that he really doesn’t get anything out of it anymore and may well risk injury by doing it.

This and laziness.

[quote]Alffi wrote:
Do you think barbell and dumbbell moves are enough for decent lat development? Has anyone put on good size without pull-ups or cables?
Personally,aside from pullovers,I could not make them feel much at all and even that is a fairly compound lift.

I personally rely on pulldowns for most part. I would not touch a chin bar.

[/quote]

This is a problem with neural activation and it should be treated that way. There are plenty of drills but first you can use straps and tie your hands on the bar to eliminate all neural input towards forearms and/or arm flexors. Then you can really start to learn and focus on vertical rowing using elbows and scapular retraction. Think that this will do do work.

[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Rack Chins… Rack Chins… More Rack Chins…

[/quote]

Agreed. I have built even more width than what my lat spread pic has with just heavy Seated Rows (with emphasis on stretch), heavy Pulldowns (with emphasis on stretch), and pull-ups.

I believe that the most important factor for lat growth is emphasis on the stretching part of the (heavy)exercise.

FWIW Yates rows hit my lats pretty hard.

when i first started training, i did a lot of behind the neck pull ups and my lats quickly became a standout body part for me.

I actually thought this guy was for real until I saw him do a 1 arm chin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZOjNz6bjIs

[quote]AzCats wrote:
I actually thought this guy was for real until I saw him do a 1 arm chin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZOjNz6bjIs[/quote]

What, just because he can do a one arm chin-up, it’s automatically fake? There are plenty of people out there who can do one arm chin-ups. I must admit I’m not one of them, but I’ve met a few who can, and one of them was built about like the guy in the video.

[quote]ctschneider wrote:
AzCats wrote:
I actually thought this guy was for real until I saw him do a 1 arm chin. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZOjNz6bjIs

What, just because he can do a one arm chin-up, it’s automatically fake? There are plenty of people out there who can do one arm chin-ups. I must admit I’m not one of them, but I’ve met a few who can, and one of them was built about like the guy in the video.[/quote]

Not just the fact he did a 1 arm pullup. It was how easy he was able to do it. Who knows! This is pretty impressive though http://www.metacafe.com/watch/456073/one_arm_pull_ups_multiple_repetitions_with_each_arm/

pull ups suck

row variations ftw.

Only if you’re over six foot, Stretch.

The rest of us pygmies will be strapping plates to ourselves and wondering how we’re going to fit through doors :slight_smile:

[quote]LiveFromThe781 wrote:
pull ups suck

row variations ftw.[/quote]

I really never got anything out of chins. Rows really are the shit.

[quote]Alffi wrote:
Do you think barbell and dumbbell moves are enough for decent lat development? Has anyone put on good size without pull-ups or cables?
Personally,aside from pullovers,I could not make them feel much at all and even that is a fairly compound lift.

I personally rely on pulldowns for most part. I would not touch a chin bar.

[/quote]

I built a majority of my lats with deads and bent over barbell rows. I feel that my lats and rest of my back are some of my better muscle groups. Also, I personally feel that chin-ups will be better for more overall lat development than wide grip pulldowns/ups. Why wouldn’t you do chin ups?

short answer no and no

dead hang chins
build size
increase strength
look impressive

[quote]elusive wrote:
Alffi wrote:
Do you think barbell and dumbbell moves are enough for decent lat development? Has anyone put on good size without pull-ups or cables?
Personally,aside from pullovers,I could not make them feel much at all and even that is a fairly compound lift.

I personally rely on pulldowns for most part. I would not touch a chin bar.

I built a majority of my lats with deads and bent over barbell rows. I feel that my lats and rest of my back are some of my better muscle groups. Also, I personally feel that chin-ups will be better for more overall lat development than wide grip pulldowns/ups. Why wouldn’t you do chin ups?[/quote]
I believe all manner of rows,deads etc. never did anything for my lats,and consequently I believe them to be grossly underdeveloped since I really only figured them fairly recently.
I sucked at chins historically and I find them a bit inconvenient. Easier to just load weight in a machine,regardless of how inferior it may be in muscle recruitment etc.