Larry Summers and Academic Freedom

[quote]iscariot wrote:

eeehhhh…not all political correctness is directly attributable to liberals v conservative and reducing it to such is a concern. [/quote]

iscariot,

It’s not ALL of political correctness. There are forms at the edges, like “anti-fat discrimination” and whatnot, that both conservatives and liberals likely find inane.

However, at the core of the type of political correctness that generally occurs on college campuses, and the genesis of political correctness that occurred on college campuses back in the late 1980s, you generally had liberals telling conservatives they shouldn’t voice their opinions because those opinions were insensitive to women, minorities, etc.

The problem with that categorization isn’t in the categorization itself – perhaps they are insensitive, or perhaps people need to realize they have no inherent right against being offended – the problem is that the accusation is used as a cudgel to shut down discussion of the underlying issue.

That’s the key, both to the underlying problem and to the hypocrisy. More later.

[quote]This matter, regarding Summers - irrespective of the correctness of what he said - is, in part, a free speech issue, but there is also the context and the social resonance surrounding it to consider and to my mind is at least as important.

Now, personally, I haven’t heard enough evidence either side of things to have an informed opinion - and you can bet that uninformed opinion makes up 99.99% of any response - but you can be sure that a lot of women, conservative, liberal or otherwise will be pretty pissed at an intimation that their sex determines their abilities. [/quote]

Here is an excerpt from the article I posted above that gives a nice summary of Summers’ arguments:

[i]Gender Differences

Having argued that the Becker Test indicates fails to indicate discrimination, Summers continues:

“So my best guess, to provoke you, of what’s behind all of this is that the largest phenomenon, by far, is the general clash between people’s legitimate family desires and employers’ current desire for high power and high intensity, that in the special case of science and engineering, there are issues of intrinsic aptitude, and particularly of the variability of aptitude, and that those considerations are reinforced by what are in fact lesser factors involving socialization and continuing discrimination. I would like nothing better than to be proved wrong”

Summers argues that to be a professor at a top university is to be at the very top of one’s profession, just as a corporate CEO is at the top of a firm. He says that to reach the top of a profession, one must dedicate an inordinate amount of time. He says that this need for professional dedication conflicts with family responsibilities for both men and women, but this tends to take more of a toll on women.

Summers’ other point concerns statistical distributions. On a variety of attributes, statistical measures show that men have higher variance than women. Thus, if you look at the very top or at the very bottom of the distribution, you will find a larger share of men, while if you look in the middle, you will find a slightly larger share of women. He conjectures that this difference at the extremes exists for some attribute that is important in math and some branches of science. If to be at the top of one of those fields you need a genetic trait that is found only once in every 5000 or 10,000 people, and if rare genetic traits are more often found in men, then when you look at the top of those fields you will see more men.[/i]

This is a general argument. It is not an argument that any particular woman is therefore limited in her capacity to do math, or work 80-hour weeks, or what have you.

[quote]Unless of course the prevailing thought is that you can be conservative until such time as you disagree with something like free-speech, then you become a PC liberal.

Frankly, as arguments go, that’s rubbish and from what I’m hearing, is using liberals as an ad hominem straw man for conservative issue dodging [on this forum].
[/quote]

Now, as I said, the key issues here are two: censorship and hypocrisy.

The censorship point doesn’t relate to liberals or conservatives, except that in this case it is liberals who are practicing it. In fact, in academia in general, it is liberals who seem to practice censorship. See the thread I started on Free Speech in Academia for some further examples, or check the website for the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education ( http://www.thefire.org ) for even further examples.

In this specific case, I don’t see anyone attempting to dispute the contentions on the merits (they were merely calls for further investigation, and not really contentions, but that only makes it worse). The basic argument is “I can’t believe he actually said that!” Talk about rubbish… They should be arguing the propositions, not attempting to censor the speaker.

Now, on the hypocrisy angle. Liberal academics are generally the first ones to scream about academic freedom and the need for unlimited inquiry in universities. Harvard is a private school, so it isn’t bound by 1st Amendment standards, but I’d bet dollars to donuts there are some fairly good contractual arguments to be made that Harvard has taken on the responsibility to provide an environment for academic freedom.

Professors are quick to claim academic freedom when they say outlandish things, or even when they attempt to squelch the freedom of expression of their students (see the controversy at Columbia University surrounding the Middle Eastern Studies department), but apparently that only holds for things that don’t offend their own world views. This obviously doesn’t apply to all professors, but as a generality or an average I think it applies rather well.

On another angle, the idea that certain outlooks should be censored actually undercuts the idea behind the entire diversity movement – at least the idea of diversity for diversity’s sake. Not to mention undermining decades of academic cultural relativism concerning how “value systems” cannot be judged on an absolute – or even a relative – scale.

Everyone is EXACTLY the same.

No one is born with any inherent advantages.

Every person has the same innate abilities.

You just have to throw enough money at the problem and it will go away.

Sincerely yours,

A Modern day Democrat.

JeffR.

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
“Isn’t it amazing how many people ignore the empirical evidence right in front of their eyes? Men are better at sciences and math- fact. Blacks are faster and can jump higher- fact. My girlfriend can vacuum and clean better than me? Fact. My gay cousin can dress better than me? Fact. I have an inbuilt phobia about asking for directions? Fact. [/quote]”

Dean, may I apologize publically for misjudging you?

I may not agree with every one of your statements (For example: I’ve been dunked on by a 5 foot 10 white man), but your post took some sack.

This whole discussion reminds me of the 1990’s. It was a hard decade for me. I like to speak my mind.

The 1990’s felt like the freakin’ Salem Witch Hunt.

“You’d better not say that, or…”

Glad it’s over!!!

JeffR

P.S. Let’s keep talking about “taboo” subjects. It’s the only way to make a positive change.

Jesus Boston, condense man, condense :slight_smile:

Right: Zeb - free speech is free speech regardless of the level of inanity involved [although one could but hope for the truly ignorant to shut up; of course the proviso with that is that the more ignorant a person is the less inclined they are to believe it…].

If we take the pulpit example, the thing is that even attacking the act and not the person is, by extension, a hate act because it denigrates all those in involved in the act by association and, to my mind, that’s just as bad as any kind of ‘liberal’ censorship/ hatespeech etc.

I think Boston made a valid point when he noted censorship and it’s association with free speech - the problem I have in and around this issue is the definition of what is deemed to be a ‘liberal’. Personally, I think that a single person’s beliefs cover a spectrum of opinion based on a combination of their values and to label someone a ‘liberal’ in such a perjorative sense simply because they hold a particular view on a particular issue is bollocks.

Similarly, labelling all liberals in a pejorative sense because some people who happen to be liberal hold a specific view is also bollocks.

Now, there will always be a small, particularly annoying minority who protest everythng, but that makes them neither liberal, nor conservative, but simply idiots [and they can be liberal OR conservative idiots].

Now, Zeb [again], would that the wife was the exception that proves the rule…I’ll be sure to pass that on to her and my science-y female-y friends :slight_smile: The thing is, for decades [centuries even] western society has stressed that females are not good at science/ maths and the set up of the education system and teaching methodologies have reflected this social bias. Only now, in the last 20 years is this changing, but if you expect social change to overcome long periods of social inculcation immediately, you’re crazy [in a good-non-liberal way].

A nice, concise comment from Jane Galt:

Incidentally, having read Larry Summers’ remarks now, I think it’s pretty embarassing for academia that this scandal got as far as it did. A commenter at Matthew Yglesias’ nailed it:

[i]. . . if the university maintains that tenure is intended to foster a climate of free debate of a wide range of unpopular hypothesis, then it seems hypocritical for the tenured faculty to demand multiply apologies from Summers and threaten his job because he offered a hypothesis that certainly should be open to scientific verification.

To the outside observer it makes Harvards faculty look like a bunch of immature people unwilling to entertain ideas that conflict with their narrow view of the world.[/i]

Larry Summers made some suggestions about the causes of female underrepresentation in the “hard” sciences. They were based on research, more than adequately caveated, and eloquently put. The hysterical reaction to his remarks by women at the conference, followed by the indignant bluster of Mr Summers’ colleagues, make Harvard, and academia, look more than a little bit silly.

And another good, lucid essay (sorry iscariot, not condensed) on Summers, from a member of the Harvard faculty less given to caterwauling:

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=IZMZoxUzwPMhvmZIyM6y9R%3D%3D

THE SCIENCE OF DIFFERENCE.
Sex Ed
by Steven Pinker

Post date 02.07.05 | Issue date 02.14.05

When I was an undergraduate in the early 1970s, I was assigned a classic paper published in Scientific American that began: “There is an experiment in psychology that you can perform easily in your home. … Buy two presents for your wife, choosing things … she will find equally attractive.” Just ten years after those words were written, the author’s blithe assumption that his readers were male struck me as comically archaic. By the early '70s, women in science were no longer an oddity or a joke but a given. Today, in my own field, the study of language development in children, a majority of the scientists are women. Even in scientific fields with a higher proportion of men, the contributions of women are so indispensable that any talk of turning back the clock would be morally heinous and scientifically ruinous.

Yet to hear the reaction to Harvard President Lawrence Summers’s remarks at a conference on gender imbalances in science, in which he raised the possibility of innate sex differences, one might guess that he had proposed exactly that. Nancy Hopkins, the eminent MIT biologist and advocate for women in science, stormed out of the room to avoid, she said, passing out from shock. An engineering dean called his remarks “an intellectual tsunami,” and, with equal tastelessness, a Boston Globe columnist compared him to people who utter racial epithets or wear swastikas. Alumnae threatened to withhold donations, and the National Organization of Women called for his resignation. Summers was raked in a letter signed by more than 100 Harvard faculty members and shamed into issuing serial apologies.

Summers did not, of course, say that women are “natively inferior,” that “they just can’t cut it,” that they suffer “an inherent cognitive deficit in the sciences,” or that men have “a monopoly on basic math ability,” as many academics and journalists assumed. Only a madman could believe such things. Summers’s analysis of why there might be fewer women in mathematics and science is commonplace among economists who study gender disparities in employment, though it is rarely mentioned in the press or in academia when it comes to discussions of the gender gap in science and engineering. The fact that women make up only 20 percent of the workforce in science, engineering, and technology development has at least three possible (and not mutually exclusive) explanations. One is the persistence of discrimination, discouragement, and other barriers. In popular discussions of gender imbalances in the workforce, this is the explanation most mentioned. Although no one can deny that women in science still face these injustices, there are reasons to doubt they are the only explanation. A second possibility is that gender disparities can arise in the absence of discrimination as long as men and women differ, on average, in their mixture of talents, temperaments, and interests–whether this difference is the result of biology, socialization, or an interaction of the two. A third explanation is that child-rearing, still disproportionately shouldered by women, does not easily co-exist with professions that demand Herculean commitments of time. These considerations speak against the reflex of attributing every gender disparity to gender discrimination and call for research aimed at evaluating the explanations.

The analysis should have been unexceptionable. Anyone who has fled a cluster of men at a party debating the fine points of flat-screen televisions can appreciate that fewer women than men might choose engineering, even in the absence of arbitrary barriers. (As one female social scientist noted in Science Magazine, “Reinventing the curriculum will not make me more interested in learning how my dishwasher works.”) To what degree these and other differences originate in biology must be determined by research, not fatwa. History tells us that how much we want to believe a proposition is not a reliable guide as to whether it is true.

Nor is a better understanding of the causes of gender disparities inconsequential. Overestimating the extent of sex discrimination is not without costs. Unprejudiced people of both sexes who are responsible for hiring and promotion decisions may be falsely charged with sexism. Young women may be pressured into choosing lines of work they don’t enjoy. Some proposed cures may do more harm than good; for example, gender quotas for grants could put deserving grantees under a cloud of suspicion, and forcing women onto all university committees would drag them from their labs into endless meetings. An exclusive focus on overt discrimination also diverts attention from policies that penalize women inadvertently because of the fact that, as the legal theorist Susan Estrich has put it, “Waiting for the connection between gender and parenting to be broken is waiting for Godot.” A tenure clock that conflicts with women’s biological clocks, and family-unfriendly demands like evening seminars and weekend retreats, are obvious examples. The regrettably low proportion of women who have received tenured job offers from Harvard during Summers’s presidency may be an unintended consequence of his policy of granting tenure to scholars early in their careers, when women are more likely to be bearing the full burdens of parenthood.

Conservative columnists have had a field day pointing to the Harvard hullabaloo as a sign of runaway political correctness at elite universities. Indeed, the quality of discussion among the nation’s leading scholars and pundits is not a pretty sight. Summers’s critics have repeatedly mangled his suggestion that innate differences might be one cause of gender disparities (a suggestion that he drew partly from a literature review in my book, The Blank Slate) into the claim that they must be the only cause. And they have converted his suggestion that the statistical distributions of men’s and women’s abilities are not identical to the claim that all men are talented and all women are not–as if someone heard that women typically live longer than men and concluded that every woman lives longer than every man. Just as depressing is an apparent unfamiliarity with the rationale behind political equality, as when Hopkins sarcastically remarked that, if Summers were right, Harvard should amend its admissions policy, presumably to accept fewer women. This is a classic confusion between the factual claim that men and women are not indistinguishable and the moral claim that we ought to judge people by their individual merits rather than the statistics of their group.

Many of Summers’s critics believe that talk of innate gender differences is a relic of Victorian pseudoscience, such as the old theory that cogitation harms women by diverting blood from their ovaries to their brains. In fact, much of the scientific literature has reported numerous statistical differences between men and women. As I noted in The Blank Slate, for instance, men are, on average, better at mental rotation and mathematical word problems; women are better at remembering locations and at mathematical calculation. Women match shapes more quickly, are better at reading faces, are better spellers, retrieve words more fluently, and have a better memory for verbal material. Men take greater risks and place a higher premium on status; women are more solicitous to their children.

Of course, just because men and women are different does not mean that the differences are triggered by genes. People develop their talents and personalities in response to their social milieu, which can change rapidly. So some of today’s sex differences in cognition could be as culturally determined as sex differences in hair and clothing. But the belief, still popular among some academics (particularly outside the biological sciences), that children are born unisex and are molded into male and female roles by their parents and society is becoming less credible. Many sex differences are universal across cultures (the twentieth-century belief in sex-reversed tribes is as specious as the nineteenth-century belief in blood-deprived ovaries), and some are found in other primates. Men’s and women’s brains vary in numerous ways, including the receptors for sex hormones. Variations in these hormones, especially before birth, can exaggerate or minimize the typical male and female patterns in cognition and personality. Boys with defective genitals who are surgically feminized and raised as girls have been known to report feeling like they are trapped in the wrong body and to show characteristically male attitudes and interests. And a meta-analysis of 172 studies by psychologists Hugh Lytton and David Romney in 1991 found virtually no consistent difference in the way contemporary Americans socialize their sons and daughters. Regardless of whether it explains the gender disparity in science, the idea that some sex differences have biological roots cannot be dismissed as Neanderthal ignorance.

Since most sex differences are small and many favor women, they don’t necessarily give an advantage to men in school or on the job. But Summers invoked yet another difference that may be more consequential. In many traits, men show greater variance than women, and are disproportionately found at both the low and high ends of the distribution. Boys are more likely to be learning disabled or retarded but also more likely to reach the top percentiles in assessments of mathematical ability, even though boys and girls are similar in the bulk of the bell curve. The pattern is readily explained by evolutionary biology. Since a male can have more offspring than a female–but also has a greater chance of being childless (the victims of other males who impregnate the available females)–natural selection favors a slightly more conservative and reliable baby-building process for females and a slightly more ambitious and error-prone process for males. That is because the advantage of an exceptional daughter (who still can have only as many children as a female can bear and nurse in a lifetime) would be canceled out by her unexceptional sisters, whereas an exceptional son who might sire several dozen grandchildren can more than make up for his dull childless brothers. One doesn’t have to accept the evolutionary explanation to appreciate how greater male variability could explain, in part, why more men end up with extreme levels of achievement.

What are we to make of the breakdown of standards of intellectual discourse in this affair–the statistical innumeracy, the confusion of fairness with sameness, the refusal to glance at the scientific literature? It is not a disease of tenured radicals; comparable lapses can be found among the political right (just look at its treatment of evolution). Instead, we may be seeing the operation of a fascinating bit of human psychology.

The psychologist Philip Tetlock has argued that the mentality of taboo–the belief that certain ideas are so dangerous that it is sinful even to think them–is not a quirk of Polynesian culture or religious superstition but is ingrained into our moral sense. In 2000, he reported asking university students their opinions of unpopular but defensible proposals, such as allowing people to buy and sell organs or auctioning adoption licenses to the highest-bidding parents. He found that most of his respondents did not even try to refute the proposals but expressed shock and outrage at having been asked to entertain them. They refused to consider positive arguments for the proposals and sought to cleanse themselves by volunteering for campaigns to oppose them. Sound familiar?

The psychology of taboo is not completely irrational. In maintaining our most precious relationships, it is not enough to say and do the right thing. We have to show that our heart is in the right place and that we don’t weigh the costs and benefits of selling out those who trust us. If someone offers to buy your child or your spouse or your vote, the appropriate response is not to think it over or to ask how much. The appropriate response is to refuse even to consider the possibility. Anything less emphatic would betray the awful truth that you don’t understand what it means to be a genuine parent or spouse or citizen. (The logic of taboo underlies the horrific fascination of plots whose protagonists are agonized by unthinkable thoughts, such as Indecent Proposal and Sophie’s Choice.) Sacred and tabooed beliefs also work as membership badges in coalitions. To believe something with a perfect faith, to be incapable of apostasy, is a sign of fidelity to the group and loyalty to the cause. Unfortunately, the psychology of taboo is incompatible with the ideal of scholarship, which is that any idea is worth thinking about, if only to determine whether it is wrong.

At some point in the history of the modern women’s movement, the belief that men and women are psychologically indistinguishable became sacred. The reasons are understandable: Women really had been held back by bogus claims of essential differences. Now anyone who so much as raises the question of innate sex differences is seen as “not getting it” when it comes to equality between the sexes. The tragedy is that this mentality of taboo needlessly puts a laudable cause on a collision course with the findings of science and the spirit of free inquiry.

Steven Pinker is Johnstone Professor of Psychology at Harvard University. He is the author of The Blank Slate and editor of The Best American Science and Nature Writing 2004.

iscariot:

Sorry my friend, I have to disagree with you. I think clergy should be able to speak out against sin. It is sort of their job no? Free speech trumps anyones idea of “hate” speech.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
iscariot:

Sorry my friend, I have to disagree with you. I think clergy should be able to speak out against sin. It is sort of their job no? Free speech trumps anyones idea of “hate” speech.[/quote]

Not in a lot of countries Zeb. It’s not really a surprise that the “Code” countries in Europe don’t respect free speech as much as we do here, but not even the other countries in the “Anglosphere” (UK, NZ, Australia, Canada and U.S.) have the stringent free-speech protection that is written into our Constitution.
[Caveat: I know far less about Australia and NZ than about Canada and the UK – I know Canada and the UK have significantly lesser protections, but I’m not as certain about NZ and Australia]

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
ZEB wrote:
iscariot:

Sorry my friend, I have to disagree with you. I think clergy should be able to speak out against sin. It is sort of their job no? Free speech trumps anyones idea of “hate” speech.

Not in a lot of countries Zeb. It’s not really a surprise that the “Code” countries in Europe don’t respect free speech as much as we do here, but not even the other countries in the “Anglosphere” (UK, NZ, Australia, Canada and U.S.) have the stringent free-speech protection that is written into our Constitution.
[Caveat: I know far less about Australia and NZ than about Canada and the UK – I know Canada and the UK have significantly lesser protections, but I’m not as certain about NZ and Australia][/quote]

True BB, however I was referring to the USA. Unfortunately some in the PC crowd would love to put a halt to free speech as it pertains to clergy preaching from the alter.

The only thing that should be off base for clergy is politics. They should not endorse any one particular candidate over another. Other than that it seems that telling a Minister, Priest or Rabbi (fill in your own affiliation) not to condemn sin (as their religious book defines it) is intrusive and an outright act to squelch free speech.

Then again a thief might get his feelings hurt if certain clergy condemned stealing…

[quote]ZEB wrote:
iscariot:

Sorry my friend, I have to disagree with you. I think clergy should be able to speak out against sin. It is sort of their job no? Free speech trumps anyones idea of “hate” speech.[/quote]

True - but that has to go both ways; that is, the clergy should suck it up and deal when they get criticised for saying unpopular things; remember, ‘sin’, for example, is a completely subjective notion contingent solely upon the specific beliefs of the denomination/ religion in question. [Be honest Zeb. the fundamentalist clergy - of whatever religion you like - are some of the most censorious people on the planet]. Also, most, if not all clergy make their religion their politics - and thus, should probably just do us all a favour and shut up.

As for free speech here; in NZ. In a general sense it’s pretty well protected, of course the broad defintion of what you can actually say in practise as opposed to what you can say within the theoretical confines of ‘free sppech’ are constrained somewhat by the politics of the current regime and the power of lobby/ pressure groups and/or how close it is to election time. In the last six months for example, the scholar David Irving was denied an entry visa into the country on the grounds that anything he said might cause trouble. [Of course NZ actually has a visa free access programme with the USA and Britain, but since Irving was kicked out of Canada that was used as grounds for denying him an entry visa]. To my mind this is appalling - the man might be a twit but even twits should be allowed to speak.

[quote]iscariot wrote:
ZEB wrote:
iscariot:

Sorry my friend, I have to disagree with you. I think clergy should be able to speak out against sin. It is sort of their job no? Free speech trumps anyones idea of “hate” speech.

True - but that has to go both ways; that is, the clergy should suck it up and deal when they get criticised for saying unpopular things; remember, ‘sin’, for example, is a completely subjective notion contingent solely upon the specific beliefs of the denomination/ religion in question. [Be honest Zeb. the fundamentalist clergy - of whatever religion you like - are some of the most censorious people on the planet]. Also, most, if not all clergy make their religion their politics - and thus, should probably just do us all a favour and shut up.

As for free speech here; in NZ. In a general sense it’s pretty well protected, of course the broad defintion of what you can actually say in practise as opposed to what you can say within the theoretical confines of ‘free sppech’ are constrained somewhat by the politics of the current regime and the power of lobby/ pressure groups and/or how close it is to election time. In the last six months for example, the scholar David Irving was denied an entry visa into the country on the grounds that anything he said might cause trouble. [Of course NZ actually has a visa free access programme with the USA and Britain, but since Irving was kicked out of Canada that was used as grounds for denying him an entry visa]. To my mind this is appalling - the man might be a twit but even twits should be allowed to speak.[/quote]

iscariot:

Yea, things are a bit different here in the good old USA. The clergy can still preach against stealing, murder and even homosexuality. That goes for all clergy whatever their denomination, if they decide to do so. That’s not likely to change in the near future, especially with the way the political wind is blowing.

It seems by your harsh criticism of all clergy “they should just do us all a favor and shut up” you are not a believer in the church, or religion. Did you used to belong and then were turned off? Were you raised to think as you do? Am I assuming to much?

Just curious.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Yea, things are a bit different here in the good old USA. The clergy can still preach against stealing, murder and even homosexuality. That goes for all clergy whatever their denomination, if they decide to do so. That’s not likely to change in the near future, especially with the way the political wind is blowing.
[/quote]

They can do that here too - but consider this difference:

“By our faith we believe that homosexuality is a sin, that being said, through our lord we believce that all people will come to him and reconcile their lives within the bounds of his judgement”

OR

“Homosexuality is Satan’s child and all those wretches who act in this manner shall be cast into the lake of fire - etc”

They say the same thing - but tell me, which is more socially constructive? The christian bible speaks of loving all god’s children and not casting judgement because that is not the role of man, but of god…[and that idea is pretty much universal in the various world religions].

[quote]
It seems by your harsh criticism of all clergy “they should just do us all a favor and shut up” you are not a believer in the church, or religion.[/quote]

I’ll point out that you said that the church should stay outr of politics and I noted that their faith is often their politics and as such it would be better if they just shut up…don’t tkae a continuation out of context.

However, I will humour you :slight_smile:

I have no time for the christian church. I do however have time for some of the belief structure inherent in christianity, just as I have deep respect for parts of the Koran etc.

Do I believe in ‘God’? Not in the christian sense of the word, that is a being on high…at a stretch I am tentatively deist, although how such a deity would manifest is completely beyond my knowledge.

More than anything though, I follow the Tao.

You’re assuming a lot, it’s none of your business and has nothing to do with the topic at hand which was about free speech [and how evil liberals are - still waiting for the jury to come back on that.]

But, again, to humour you. No I wasn’t raised in my current beliefs - but I am not currently a sheep and as such can make up my own mind as to what I consider constitutes a universal truth.

iscariot:

You have a real problem separating the sin from the sinner. I stated a few posts back that clergy should (and do in most cases) attack the sin, but not the sinner. If someone is performing an act that any clergy member considers sin, based upon whatever text they might be using, then they have a duty to speak against the act. Do you think that you can understand this?

Also, just because you “noted that their faith is their politics” does not make it so. Preaching from the pulpit (whatever religion) is not politics, at least not in this country. You can view it as such if you want, again that does not make it a fact. It is religion!

I thank you for the explanation of your “faith” I was curious. You meet all kinds of people in this great big beautiful world. It has been a joy meeting you.

You’re being naive.

Yes, in a black and white, theoretical world attacking the sin, not the sinner is the idea - but if you think this is what the majority of clergy do then you’re nuts. Most people are wired far far too simply to even bother differentiating - and that includes the clergy

No. I’m obviously an idiot.

Do you think you could get any more patronising?

Bollocks.

So, what you’re saying is that if two people say exactly the same thing but one person says if from behind a pulpit
then that’s OK because it is religion speaking…

:boggle:

Some of this kerfluffle is probably because people just don’t understand statistical measures:

http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/05_02_20_corner-archive.asp#056954

LARRY SUMMERS COMMENTARY [John Derbyshire]
Well forward in the competition for “Silliest Commentary on the Larry Summers Flap” is Andrea Peyser in America’s Newspaper of Record yesterday ( http://www.nypost.com/commentary/41121.htm ). Quote from Miz Peyser: “Harvard University President Lawrence Summers did, in fact, declare that, in his learned opinion as head of one of the world’s leading educational institutions, women, on average, are dumber than men.”

Summers did not say anything of the kind. The only thing he said that even came close was: “There is relatively clear evidence that whatever the difference in means – which can be debated – there is a difference in the standard deviation, and variability of a male and a female population.”

The word “means” here means “averages.” There are all sorts of differences between men and women in their mean measurement of various attributes – rates of incarceration, for instance. Whether there is a difference in means for cognitive ability is, as Summers said, debatable. (If there is one, it is small.) There is no doubt, however, that there are differences in standard deviation; and that, as Summers also said, such differences have large effects at the tails of the bell curve: “Even small differences in the standard deviation will translate into very large differences in the available pool substantially out.”

To understand the difference between a mean and a standard deviation, you need to have mastered some elementary statistics, a thing that plainly Andrea Peyser never bothered with.

[quote]iscariot wrote:

You have a real problem separating the sin from the sinner. I stated a few posts back that clergy should (and do in most cases) attack the sin, but not the sinner. If someone is performing an act that any clergy member considers sin, based upon whatever text they might be using, then they have a duty to speak against the act.

You’re being naive.

Yes, in a black and white, theoretical world attacking the sin, not the sinner is the idea - but if you think this is what the majority of clergy do then you’re nuts. Most people are wired far far too simply to even bother differentiating - and that includes the clergy

Do you think that you can understand this?

No. I’m obviously an idiot.

Do you think you could get any more patronising?

Also, just because you “noted that their faith is their politics” does not make it so. Preaching from the pulpit (whatever religion) is not politics, at least not in this country. You can view it as such if you want, again that does not make it a fact. It is religion!

Bollocks.

So, what you’re saying is that if two people say exactly the same thing but one person says if from behind a pulpit
then that’s OK because it is religion speaking…

:boggle:
[/quote]

Not trying to be patronising. However, you are under some sort of delusion that no one has a right to speak out against something that they feel is wrong. That is censorship! If someone is offended to bad. Many are offended each day by Hustler magazine. Personally, I’m glad I live in a country that allows this sort of freedom.

When you claim that a member of the clergy cannot speak out against sin, because you don’t feel that the sin and the sinner can be separated, that is simply idiotic. If the sinner is offended because the clergy member does not like his/her action…again to bad!

It’s America …yep.

There will always be people trying to prove that men and women are ‘equal’ on some scale or another. Wishful thinking, wishful thinking.

Males and females have many many differences, physiological, psychological, you name it. Many of those differences stem from what the functions of men(hunting, fishing, war, to name a few) and women(cooking, caring for children, gathering edible plants) have been throughout the existence of mankind. In our age its hard for alot of people to accept that, but its useless to argue the point so many femenists and a plethora of other people have tried to argue, that society determines our gender roles, and that if society doesn’t interfere, we can be however we want. Anyone educated in that area knows that.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Not trying to be patronising. However, you are under some sort of delusion that no one has a right to speak out against something that they feel is wrong. That is censorship! If someone is offended to bad.
[/quote]

Eh??!!

sound of head banging on desk

I don’t know what you think you’re reading…anyway, this is going nowhere - it would make a lot more sense if you actually kept to the subject -

have fun

More interesting info on Larry Summers and Harvard:

THE FACULTY ATTACK ON SUMMERS.
Harvard Coup
by Jason Zengerle

Post date 02.24.05 | Issue date 03.07.05

Harvard University has a long tradition of aggrieved students laying siege to its buildings. In 1969, about 100 students protesting the Vietnam War marched through Harvard Yard and took over University Hall. In 2001, some 50 students agitating for a living wage for university workers stormed Massachusetts Hall and occupied it for nearly a month. Whenever there is a serious protest at Harvard, it seems, there’s the threat that a building will be overrun by rampaging students. This week, however, that vaunted tradition was given an unusual twist. On a cold and gray Tuesday afternoon, about 500 members of the Harvard faculty politely filed into Lowell Hall, just off Harvard Yard, where they proceeded to lay siege to the university’s president, Larry Summers.

In mid-January, Summers, speaking extemporaneously at an economics conference, said that men and women might possess different “intrinsic aptitude[s]” in science. His remarks set off a firestorm of criticism–particularly from some prominent female professors at Harvard–and Summers, after initially hesitating, apologized. More concretely, he appointed two task forces, one on women in the faculty and the other on women in science and engineering, and asked them to make recommendations for improving Harvard’s recruitment, support, and promotion of women. But the criticism of Summers did not abate, and, on February 15, at the first monthly faculty meeting since his offending remarks, he was confronted yet again–and this time not only about women in science. One professor assailed Summers for his “reckless and repressive leadership.” Another accused him of using “fear and manipulation … to govern capriciously.” Eight more professors rebuked him in similarly harsh terms, and, after the allotted 90 minutes–an experience Summers later described as “searing”–the faculty voted to hold an emergency meeting one week later to continue the discussion and, some hoped, to subject Summers to a “no confidence” vote.

Shortly before the emergency meeting on February 22, a crowd gathered outside Lowell Hall. Most were professors, some of whom had never attended a faculty meeting before, waiting to get into the building as they stood in a line that snaked out the door and down the street. Scores of reporters–including those from The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and even the BBC–were there as well. Noticeably missing from this campus scene, however, was much of a student presence. Aside from a few dozen student demonstrators–some holding signs saying larry must go! and divest from unocal and petrochina, others handing out flyers from a group called Students for Larry–most Harvard pupils steered clear of the circus. Surveying the commotion from a distance, a junior classics major named Simon Vozick-Levinson explained students’ general lack of interest in Summers’s fate. “Most students at Harvard,” he said, “don’t give a shit about the administration.”

Indeed, the Summers controversy is one that has been confined almost entirely to Harvard’s faculty. Unlike past protests at Harvard–most of which were, if not student-led, at least student-heavy–the uproar over Summers has been a decidedly older affair. But that doesn’t mean it has been any less heated. As Claudia Goldin, a Harvard economics professor, remarked a few days before the emergency meeting, “This may be the first time in American history that most university faculties are more radical than students.” Which is why, if Summers is to survive this controversy, it will largely be because less radical members of Harvard’s faculty learned how to assert themselves.

It was probably inevitable that Summers would anger some Harvard faculty members, if only because he was such a dramatic departure from what they were accustomed to. His predecessor, Neil Rudenstine, had been an aggressive fund-raiser. But, in his dealings with professors, he had been extremely hands-off. “Rudenstine was pretty passive,” says one senior professor. “And so then all of these guys could just run around and do what they wanted. He gave carte blanche.” This carte blanche, Rudenstine’s critics contended, contributed to a decline in Harvard’s academic standards–courses became less rigorous and grade inflation soared. (In 2001, Rudenstine’s last year as president, 91 percent of Harvard students graduated with honors.) By the end of Rudenstine’s ten-year tenure, Harvard’s status as the preeminent U.S. academic institution no longer seemed assured.

In its search for a new president, then, the seven members of the Harvard Corporation–the university’s highest governing body–seemed to be looking for the anti-Rudenstine. In Summers, they found him. A tenured economics professor at Harvard at the age of 28, Summers had left Cambridge in 1991 for a series of policy jobs in Washington, culminating in his appointment as Treasury secretary during the second Clinton administration. With a reputation for being both brilliant and brash, the Corporation clearly hoped that he would shake things up at Harvard. As one corporation member later explained: “We agreed that we needed somebody more aggressive, more pushy, bolder.”

As president, the 50-year-old Summers has been all of those things. One of the first tasks he tackled was solving Harvard’s terrible space crunch in Cambridge by preparing to expand its campus west of the Charles River onto 260 acres the university had acquired in the Allston section of Boston. Harvard had owned the Allston land for some time, but few of its faculty wanted to decamp there–and Rudenstine had been loath to force them to move to a place they considered as remote as Siberia. At one point, he hired avant-garde architect Rem Koolhaas to devise a plan that called for actually moving the Charles River west, thus making Allston part of Cambridge and seemingly solving the faculty’s objection to leaving the 02138 zip code. Summers didn’t bother with such schemes. Instead, he pressed the faculty on the issue–and came up with a workable plan that, while still in its early stages, will eventually make Allston home to Harvard’s graduate schools of education and public health as well as a state-of-the-art life sciences complex.

Summers also set about changing Harvard’s academic culture. He was distressed that so many Harvard undergrads reported little contact with the university’s famous faculty, so he expanded a series of freshman seminars, taught by some of Harvard’s most renowned professors, and he even led an undergraduate course himself; he then looked to hire more faculty to improve Harvard’s professor-to-student ratio. He also began supervising the faculty more closely–most notably confronting Cornel West, the celebrated Afro-American studies professor, about the quality of West’s scholarship and reports that West had missed classes to campaign for Bill Bradley, a confrontation that precipitated West’s eventual move to Princeton. “Most presidents think of themselves as having a glorious faculty in fields that maybe they don’t understand,” says economics professor Goldin. “Larry Summers has been someone who feels that, if he can’t understand it, if you can’t explain it to him, then he’s got to question it. A lot of presidents don’t have the time or stomach for that.”

Most significantly, Summers instituted a formal review of Harvard’s core curriculum–something that hadn’t been done since 1978. As Summers saw it, the core–with its emphasis on “approaches to knowledge” rather than on hard information–left many Harvard students woefully ignorant of the sciences. So, last April, a Harvard committee proposed a new curriculum that increased the number of required science courses. As Summers explained, “An educational culture where it’s an embarrassment to not know the names of five plays by Shakespeare but OK not to know the difference between a gene and a chromosome isn’t functional.”

Indeed, in ways large and small, Summers has sought to bring central oversight to a university that, for the longest time, has been almost pathologically decentralized, with its ten schools operating autonomously. “Long before Larry arrived, people would say Harvard should be greater than the sum of its parts,” says Henry Rosovsky, a former dean of Harvard’s Faculty of Arts and Sciences and a former member of the Harvard Corporation. “But I think Larry has really attempted to address that issue and has been carrying out various policies of achieving greater power for the president’s office.” Which, perhaps not surprisingly, has not always sat well with the faculty–some of whom complain that Summers is a dictatorial bully who stifles dissent. “For a quote-unquote radical left faculty,” says one senior professor, “it’s actually very conservative in the amount of personal investment it has in the status quo.”

Of course, the faculty’s “radical left” nature is another reason for Summers’s current troubles. While Rudenstine rarely uttered a word about political matters, Summers has exhibited no such temerity. Officially sworn in as Harvard president only a month after the September 11 terrorist attacks, he has used his pulpit to preach a patriotic message. “It is all too common for us to underestimate the importance of clearly expressing our respect and support for the military and individuals who choose to serve in the Armed Forces of the United States,” he said in an October 2001 speech at Harvard’s Kennedy School. Not long after, he reversed a 1960s-era policy that prohibited Harvard students from listing rotc service in the yearbook. And, at the first Harvard commencement over which Summers presided, he requested that “The Star-Spangled Banner” be played to start the proceedings; the ceremony had traditionally begun with Harvard-themed music. Moreover, Summers has not limited his ideological pronouncements to just patriotic issues. In September 2002, in the midst of a faculty and student campaign to pressure Harvard to divest its portfolio of companies that do business in Israel, Summers, who is Jewish, declared that “serious and thoughtful people are advocating and taking actions that are anti-Semitic in their effect, if not their intent.”

All of these stands–along with his dressing down of West–have made Summers a hero to cultural conservatives. But Summers himself is not a conservative. (After all, he was once a policy adviser to Michael Dukakis and then served for eight years in the Clinton administration.) Rather, he is, as James Traub called him in The New York Times Magazine, an “unabashedly mainstream figure.” On a campus that is decidedly to the left of the mainstream, however, this can be a source of much consternation. And while, in the current controversy, Summers’s critics confine most of their complaints to his remarks on women and the sciences and his leadership style more generally, it’s often not hard to detect the political subtext of their grievances. In a speech at the February 15 faculty meeting, for instance, Political Science Professor Theda Skocpol, one of Summers’s most vociferous opponents, accused him of harming the university “in effect, if not in intent”–a not-too-subtle rebuke of Summers’s pro-Israel comments.

The dispute’s ideological nature has put Summers at a decided disadvantage. His leading faculty critics, like Skocpol and History of Science Professor Everett Mendelsohn, have long records of campus activism and are experts at the art of academic warfare. “These were the same people who were agitating in the 1970s for various reforms,” says Steve Pinker, who was a Harvard graduate student at the time and is now a psychology professor and one of Summers’s most outspoken backers. “They’re very familiar with speechmaking and petition-signing and verbal manifestos.” Indeed, Summers’s faculty supporters concede that they were completely unprepared for the February 15 faculty meeting, at which only one of the eleven speakers defended the president. Many of his supporters, says Pinker, “are scientists who have an allergy to any kind of activism or verbal politics … Who don’t often go to faculty meetings. They just want to be left alone in the lab.”

Immediately after the February 15 meeting, as both sides prepared for the emergency session the following week, Summers’s supporters tried to overcome that mentality. Claudia Goldin and another economics professor, David Laibson, drafted a letter that, while acknowledging that Summers had made mistakes and must work on becoming more collegial, argued in favor of his staying on as president. They then sought counsel from, as Goldin described them, the “angels of Harvard”–revered Cambridge figures including Rosovsky and University Librarian Sidney Verba–and, after a few modifications, circulated the document, eventually garnering close to 200 signatures. Other Summers allies quietly lobbied colleagues on his behalf. On the eve of the emergency meeting, The Crimson released a poll of 280 members of the faculty: 32 percent thought Summers should resign; 55 percent thought he should not.

That split in opinion seemed to be reflected at the February 22 emergency meeting, where, unlike the meeting a week earlier, Summers’s faculty supporters managed to make their voices heard. According to The Crimson, which is the only media outlet permitted to attend Harvard faculty meetings, a natural sciences professor credited Summers for bringing “energy and intelligence” to Harvard. Several other professors made similarly supportive remarks. The tone of this meeting was far more collegial than the last one. And, perhaps most important for Summers, there was no motion for a vote of no confidence. But the criticism was still there. A history professor complained about how Summers had centralized power, destroying Harvard’s “self-governing community.” And a physics professor became the first faculty member to openly call for Summers’s resignation. Summers, once again, tried to appease his critics. He pledged “to listen more–and more carefully–and to temper my words and actions in ways that convey respect and help us work together more harmoniously.” He was committed, he said, “to opening a new chapter” in his work with the faculty. But some on the faculty still seemed interested only in a final chapter: An African and African American studies professor later told The Crimson that he intended to move for a vote of “no confidence” in Summers at the next faculty meeting in March.

After two hours, the meeting was over, and the faculty came out into the frigid night. The few students who had gathered outside Lowell Hall earlier that day were long gone, but the media hordes remained, and they shined klieg lights and shoved microphones toward the professors’ faces, bombarding them with questions about what had happened inside. The professors, unaccustomed to giving sound bites, tried nonetheless, pronouncing the meeting “productive” and “constructive” and “stately.” As they answered the queries, Summers himself came out of the building; but, rather than walk through the media gauntlet, he took an alternative route around the side of Lowell Hall. Nonetheless, some reporters spotted him and quickly chased him down. As Summers walked, they formed a moving scrum around him. What did he think of what had just transpired? Did he plan to resign? Summers, still walking, would only say that he found the meeting “constructive” and “productive.” Before he had to say any more, he rushed into another building–and, for a moment at least, he got away from the questions and out of the cold.

Jason Zengerle is a senior editor at TNR.

isacriot,

I presume you’re safe levelling religious critiques in New Zealand, but watch out if you travel over to Australia. This type of law would be unconstitutional over here.

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_02_27-2005_03_05.shtml#1109774462

Harsh Criticism of Religion Made Illegal:

No, not by the mullahs; not by Ashcroft; rather, by the Australian Parliament. The Australian Racial and Religious Tolerance Act of 2001 provides that “A person must not, on the ground of the religious belief or activity of another person or class of persons engage in conduct that incites hatred against, serious contempt for, or revulsion or severe ridicule of, that other person or class of persons.”

There’s a defense for people who, among other things, are “reasonably and in good faith” engaging in “genuine academic, artistic, religious or scientific” commentary, or otherwise acting “in the public interest.” But the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal held two months ago that this defense is available only to those who speak “reasonabl[y]” and who “honestly and conscientiously endeavour to have regard to and minimise the harm [the speech] . . . will . . . inflict,” as opposed to “us[ing the freedom of speech] as a cover to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate people.”

Among other things, speech that isn’t “a fair representation of [another group’s] religious beliefs” is punishable, as is speech that fails to “distinguish between moderate and extremist” members of a religion. Likewise, the tribunal seemed particularly troubled by speech that “mock[s] what [members of a religious group believe,” or “repeatly invoke[s] laughter from the audience when describing apparent [religious] beliefs.” (Naturally, the decision and the statute give little guidance as to what exactly you can say in order that your comments be found “reasonable” and “fair.”) The decision (Islamic Council of Victoria v Catch the Fire Ministries Inc Islamic Council of Victoria v Catch the Fire Ministries Inc (Final) [2004] VCAT 2510 (22 December 2004) ) held some Christian speakers liable for harshly criticizing and mocking Islam – among other things, saying “that the Qur’an promotes violence, killing and looting,” “that it treats women badly,” “that Allah is not merciful and a thief’s hand is cut off for stealing,” and more. But of course, if the law is applied evenhandedly, it would equally apply to atheists criticizing religious people generally (think “religion is the opium of the masses” but with some more elaboration), or at least members of a particular religion. It would apply to people criticizing Catholicism for its supposed oppression of women or historical crimes. It would apply to people mocking beliefs like those of Catch the Fire Ministries, or harshly criticizing the Falwells and the Robertsons.

This is an awful position for a democracy to take. Religions are ideologies, and need to be subject to criticism like any other ideology – especially when the religions are motive forces for important political and moral movements. Some of this criticism will involve mockery, laughter, and severe ridicule; and ridiculing religious ideologies will naturally implicitly or explicitly ridicule people who hold those views, especially when the speaker gives examples of folly that the ideology supposedly causes. Yet if you take religion seriously, as a set of ideas that, if true, should affect people’s lives, you have to accept the possibility that some religious ideas are false and harmful, and deserve harsh criticism and not just bland ecumenical toleration.

I would prefer that such criticisms be fair, polite, and measured; but it’s impossible for the law to punish only the rude and excessive form without also punishing and deterring important content. John Stuart Mill ( II. Of the Liberty of Thought and Discussion. Mill, John Stuart. 1869. On Liberty ) dealt with all this a century and a half ago, and his position is as sound today as it was then.

In any event, this is just another reminder to be cautious about proposals to create a new “hate speech” exception in U.S. constitutional law, by replacing the supposed excessive rigidity of modern First Amendment law with a more balanced and nuanced approach. Seems to me that our rigidity on this score is far superior to Euro-Canado-Australian flexibility.