T Nation

Kung Fu Master Baiting

This is a documentary that a friend of mine started as a student project in 2009, it tries to take a thoughtful look at those weird situations where Kung Fu Masters are forced to acknowledge that there might be some wholes in their theories.

Thanks for sharing.

Mr Ma is very smooth. It’d be cool to learn from him.

Very Interesting. Are the other parts on You Tube?

Kung Fu is like any other combat style. You have your people who train to fight and your people that like to tell people they train to fight.

My introduction to styles was through Tai Chi and Northern Praying Mantis and there where people in there that on my first day I could easily defeat even though they had been there for awhile. However there where also guys in there that could hand me my ass in 2 secs if they needed to.

The Sifu of the school also was the calmest man I ever met but when I did push hands with him and tried to out muscle him as I had a good 30-40 lbs on him sent me flying across the room. some students where shocked I laughed and got the point and it was something I wish more traditional schools would still do. You have to get hit or thrown completely to know where you messed up. To many of these schools dont use full contact sparing at all which any one in combat oriented things will tell you is critical to your growth as a fighter.

I remember a story from my instructor about several guys who trained Kung Fu fighting guys who trained Muay Thai. It was basically some kind of Kung Fu vs Muay Thai tournament. The guys that took Muay Thai destroyed them twice. The guys in China taking Sanda appear to be putting up more of a fight last I heard.

Part 2 is on you tube. Looks like a good style, but as with all styles there is no magic in the style itself. In part 2 the master gets pissed when holes in his ability are revealed by the narrator. This happens a lot in TMA when the senior student tells an aggressive junior student the bs line “nobody would attack that way.”

Don’t get me wrong, I have practised uechi ryu for 22 years. Cross training in ju jitsu and boxing pointed out the flaws in that logic pretty quickly for me and has improved my understanding of uechi. It’s just that a lot of students are afraid to face the reality that what they have done for years may not work when something bad goes down.

Personally I can’t wat until that teen age white belt becomes that 23 year old shodan and is able to test me in the dojo and push me beyond where I am now. Or when that guy that has boxed or trained muy thai wants to exchange ideas and go at it to show me what works. Common sense dictates that if you can stand up reasonably well to a trained martial artis with an aggressive style that does not know the “script” that is the choreagraphed routine of your style the better of you’ll be in a real situation.

Sometimes the emperor has no clothes.

Part 2 is on you tube. Looks like a good style, but as with all styles there is no magic in the style itself. In part the master gets pissed when holes in his ability are revealed by the narrator. This happens a lot in TMA when the senior student tells an aggressive junior student the bs line “nobody would attack that way.”

Don’t get me wrong, I have practiced uechi ryu for 22 years. Cross training in ju jitsu and boxing pointed out the flaws in that logic pretty quickly for me and has improved my understanding of uechi. It’s just that a lot of students are afraid to face the reality that what they have done for years may not work when something bad goes down.

Personally I can’t wait until that teen age white belt becomes that 23 year old shodan and is able to test me in the dojo and push me beyond where I am now. Or when that guy that has boxed or trained muy thai wants to exchange ideas and go at it to show me what works. Common sense dictates that if you can stand up reasonably well to a trained martial artis with an aggressive style that does not know the “script” that is the choreagraphed routine of your style the better of you’ll be in a real situation.

Sometimes the emperor has no clothes.

[quote]Josann wrote:
Part 2 is on you tube. Looks like a good style, but as with all styles there is no magic in the style itself. In part 2 the master gets pissed when holes in his ability are revealed by the narrator. This happens a lot in TMA when the senior student tells an aggressive junior student the bs line “nobody would attack that way.”

Don’t get me wrong, I have practised uechi ryu for 22 years. Cross training in ju jitsu and boxing pointed out the flaws in that logic pretty quickly for me and has improved my understanding of uechi. It’s just that a lot of students are afraid to face the reality that what they have done for years may not work when something bad goes down.

Personally I can’t wat until that teen age white belt becomes that 23 year old shodan and is able to test me in the dojo and push me beyond where I am now. Or when that guy that has boxed or trained muy thai wants to exchange ideas and go at it to show me what works. Common sense dictates that if you can stand up reasonably well to a trained martial artis with an aggressive style that does not know the “script” that is the choreagraphed routine of your style the better of you’ll be in a real situation.

Sometimes the emperor has no clothes.[/quote]

Yes, very true. Any system (traditional or modern) that tries to tell you “this is how someone is going to attack you” or “no one would attack you that way” is doing you a disservice. Not that there aren’t common types of attacks that you may experience and not saying you shouldn’t be ready for such attacks. But trying to mentally predict what someone is going to do ahead of time is a good way to get yourself in trouble. And if you cannot effectively flow no matter what your opponent does, then you have holes in your game and need to expand your skill set.

Also, no offense since it seems that the OP actually knows the guy in the video, but he’s not all that skilled of a fighter (or at least grappler from watching that little rolling session at the end of the 3rd part of the video). Put Master Ma up against a really good wrestler, judoka, or BJJ stylist and he would have got his butt handed to him. Nice break-falling skills though.

What I will give him credit for is that he obviously is a master of the style that he does and has obviously spent years and years perfecting those movements. His system is also very strong on deception (something that seems to be pretty common among Chinese systems), which can be an advantage in the right contexts. Unfortunately it seems like his style/mind has become crystalized/dogmatic and is unwilling/incapable of self reflection or evolution. Such is the nature of the “traditional” mindset though.

[quote]Whelanj wrote:
This is a documentary that a friend of mine started as a student project in 2009, it tries to take a thoughtful look at those weird situations where Kung Fu Masters are forced to acknowledge that their might be some wholes in their theories.

[/quote]

(Eye Roll)

I watched all of the videos, pretty interesting to watch. My feelings are still the same. Traditional martial arts have lots of techniques that work but almost none of them focus on putting them together in a fashion that will work against someone who is attacking back and also has some training.

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
I watched all of the videos, pretty interesting to watch. My feelings are still the same. Traditional martial arts have lots of techniques that work but almost none of them focus on putting them together in a fashion that will work against someone who is attacking back and also has some training.
[/quote]

Depends where you go and if they do live sparring. That to me is the key to any place that wants to teach fighting/self defense. You have to put your students into stress filled sparing. Especially if your a self defense based place. Without live sparring who knows if any of it will work. Also without it how do you know under stress how you will react. If I show you a move over and over but never have you apply it then it will fail so bad it hurts.

[quote]punchedbear wrote:

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
I watched all of the videos, pretty interesting to watch. My feelings are still the same. Traditional martial arts have lots of techniques that work but almost none of them focus on putting them together in a fashion that will work against someone who is attacking back and also has some training.
[/quote]

Depends where you go and if they do live sparring. That to me is the key to any place that wants to teach fighting/self defense. You have to put your students into stress filled sparing. Especially if your a self defense based place. Without live sparring who knows if any of it will work. Also without it how do you know under stress how you will react. If I show you a move over and over but never have you apply it then it will fail so bad it hurts.[/quote]
I don’t think “live sparring” necessarily makes the art legit for self defense or fighting. I mean students are going to be taught certain techniques and ultimately limited by them. If two people who know an ineffective martial art are sparring with each other, I doubt there is any way for them to know it’s ineffective. They’ll be going back and forth with the techniques they are taught. You really only know if they’re (different arts) tested between each other or in street fights.

I mean how are these kung fu guys who attack with mantis hand or tiger claw techniques going to react when someone just throws a straight one two to their jaw. One of their attacks is a sort of scratching attack. Who thinks that’s going to stop anyone unless you get them in the eyes?

If any of you guys actually think the “master” in that video could defeat someone who actually knew how to fight you are either really young, have not had enough real life fighting experiences, or just plain stupid.

What about the extreme or sometimes deadly force aspect of Martial Arts. Many techniques as Muay Thai and Boxing teach things you can use in sparring, such as a punch to the face, but many MA teach techniques such as eye gauging(Crane Style), and specific Adams Apple strikes. If you got a 5’5 woman who’s only learned those how is she going to spar that with someone who punches and kicks? thoughts?

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
What about the extreme or sometimes deadly force aspect of Martial Arts. Many techniques as Muay Thai and Boxing teach things you can use in sparring, such as a punch to the face, but many MA teach techniques such as eye gauging(Crane Style), and specific Adams Apple strikes. If you got a 5’5 woman who’s only learned those how is she going to spar that with someone who punches and kicks? thoughts?[/quote]
My thoughts are if you can’t spar those techniques regularly against live opponents, how are you going to get good practice? A boxer is going to learn to dodge punches coming at his face in sparring and in fighting. How hard do you think it would be to dodge a similar strike to the eyes? I don’t think anyone has to worry about a strike to the adams apple if they keep their chin tucked. Even then is that going to stop someone if you punch them in the neck? You think a groin shot will always stop a guy?

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
What about the extreme or sometimes deadly force aspect of Martial Arts. Many techniques as Muay Thai and Boxing teach things you can use in sparring, such as a punch to the face, but many MA teach techniques such as eye gauging(Crane Style), and specific Adams Apple strikes. If you got a 5’5 woman who’s only learned those how is she going to spar that with someone who punches and kicks? thoughts?[/quote]

Well she shouldn’t be taught only those moves. That is a massive failing on the teachers part BECAUSE sparring teaching timing, distance gauging, entering, angles, and accuracy under pressure. That is precisely the reason she SHOULD spar. There is an MMA school where I live, owned by a really nice guy and a great jiujitsu student. It has a fair number of competitive fighters in it. There aren’t many women in the classdes, but they have women rolling with the guys, and sparring with the guys. All of those timing and angling assets are required to actually land those eye gouges, adams apples strikes, or other maiming and mangling moves. If you don’t have the ability to hit what you’re aiming at with a standard fist or open palm, how are you going to hit a soft spot with fingers?

Sparring teaches how to apply techniques. If you can’t apply it, what good is an eye gouge if you actually, really, really need it?

Anyone else think it’s hot when a girl spars with the guys? I do.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
If any of you guys actually think the “master” in that video could defeat someone who actually knew how to fight you are either really young, have not had enough real life fighting experiences, or just plain stupid.

[/quote]

i dont think anyone thought he could. He looks smooth with his moves when there is no real fighting but you saw it go to hell when he resisted. This hurts Kung Fu pretty bad when there are some very legit guys out there that can fight using Kung Fu.

I know quite a few guys though that do practice Kung Fu that will argue that if they where going 100% the guy would kill you but they also believe Jet Li could beat Brock Lesner so take that with a grain of salt.

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]Airtruth wrote:
What about the extreme or sometimes deadly force aspect of Martial Arts. Many techniques as Muay Thai and Boxing teach things you can use in sparring, such as a punch to the face, but many MA teach techniques such as eye gauging(Crane Style), and specific Adams Apple strikes. If you got a 5’5 woman who’s only learned those how is she going to spar that with someone who punches and kicks? thoughts?[/quote]
My thoughts are if you can’t spar those techniques regularly against live opponents, how are you going to get good practice? A boxer is going to learn to dodge punches coming at his face in sparring and in fighting. How hard do you think it would be to dodge a similar strike to the eyes? I don’t think anyone has to worry about a strike to the adams apple if they keep their chin tucked. Even then is that going to stop someone if you punch them in the neck? You think a groin shot will always stop a guy?[/quote]

I agree that it is important to train against live, fully resisting opponents. However if you believe that it is safe to train eye gouges, throat attacks etc. in a live, presumably contact sparring setting, I think you are underestimating the potential damage of these techniques. The throat especially is an unforgiving target and legally considered to be lethal force. This is not some sort of martial art bullshido thing. It is legitimate. As far as keeping your chin tucked, and slipping eye jabs etc, that’s great advice, but if it were infallible no one would ever land a clean shot in boxing.

The other consideration, besides safety, is how practical/tolerable it is to train this stuff “live” on a regular basis. Who is going to come out 3+ times/week to get their face/neck/ears/eyes etc. clawed/gouged/bitten etc. “live” in training? Who is going to roll with someone who gets out of a a mount by grabbing the back of your neck and driving their thumb into your eye socket as deep as it will go? This is no fun at all.

You can train this stuff full speed and almost full force but imo it needs to be in a very controlled setting with the aid of a protective combative suit of some kind. Usually this works better where a designated aggressor attacks and the trainee responds. The aggressor in the suit simulates likely responses to strikes to protected areas (eyes, groin etc) and the attack/response continues until the threat is neutralized or the trainee disengages and escapes. Sparring with it’s back and forth rhythm, measuring, distancing, multiple feints, complex footwork etc. is a useful tool. However it bears much less resemblance to a real self protection/fighting scenario than people tend to think.

[quote]punchedbear wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
If any of you guys actually think the “master” in that video could defeat someone who actually knew how to fight you are either really young, have not had enough real life fighting experiences, or just plain stupid.

[/quote]

i dont think anyone thought he could. He looks smooth with his moves when there is no real fighting but you saw it go to hell when he resisted. This hurts Kung Fu pretty bad when there are some very legit guys out there that can fight using Kung Fu. [/quote]

Really now, why don’t you name them all. And I don’t mean Kun Fu fighters who can beat other Kung Fu fighters. One can be a champion at pillow fighting but what does that really mean? Name some Kung Fu fighters who can compete and defeat the worlds best (real) fighters.

Yes, there is almost no end to what impressionable kids believe. They feel that if their instructor could just use those lethal techniques that they would defeat the best that MMA has to offer. Size, weight, real fighting experience they mean nothing. All that matters is that their instructor (or someone’s lethal instructor) could use his magic palm strike and disable those silly wrestlers who want to take you to the ground. And those bobbing and weaving boxers who throw those funny looking looping punches that could never land on a Kung Fu specialist.

Traditional karate/Kung Fu (compared to today’s MMA fighters) is a long running joke that doesn’t go away as long as there are gullible youth nodding their head with an open mouth.