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Kroc Rows and Good Mornings - Which One To Do First After Deads?


#1

Into the Deadlift day, if I wanted to follow up with Kroc Rows and Good Mornings, which one should be done first?
I was thinking about doing Krocs first so the lower back can get some rest in the meanwhile, then move to Good Mornings (5x10).

Also, about Good Mornings:
-is there a recommended starting weight for someone who never did them? Maybe like start with half bodyweight and see from there
-is it recommended to use the pussy pad while doing it, for any reason?
-would it be ok to do them twice a week (Deadlift day and Squat day), or is that too much? I’ve read that they have a good transfer on Squats too

Thanks in advance


#2

I have never done Kroc rows so I’ll leave that question to others.

As for Good Mornings:

I would have you start with light weight for 10-15 reps for a few weeks to feel the movement out. After that you can increase the weight until your handling close to your squat poundage.

You won’t need the pussy pad. You’ll be placing the bar on your back in the same position as the squat.

As for frequency, it depends on your recovery ability.

What I found to be important with good mornings is to keep a slight bend in the knees, and there is no need to go too low. Ideally I like to be a bit lower than my lowest back angle (squat or deadlift), so that my back is strong over a greater range of motion than it would be in the lifts.

And yes, the carryover to both lifts is awesome IMO.


#3

Thanks a lot for the reply.
You mean 10-15 reps total for a few weeks? Or light weight sets of 10-15 reps?
As of now, I do DLs - Snatch Grip DLs - Kroc rows on Deadlift day, then Front Squats - Back Squats - Romanian DLs on Squat day, so I should be used to train low back twice a week, but I’ll try first with once a week to get some assestment.

Also, is it true that Good Mornings can actually improve thoracic mobility? Talking of a proper improvement


#4

What’re your lifts at right now?


#5

I’m 170lbs; 1 year and 1 month of gym training, split in order into: about 8 months of generic mass/hypertrophy training, 4 months of strength/mass training (5x5 but with more hypetrophy work), 2 months of 5/3/1.

Deadlift - estimated 1RM @320lbs, improving quickly, expecting to hit 2x bodyweight very soon. I’m in the second month of 5/3/1, right before I started I could barely do 265lbs x3 with good form, the previous week I did 260lbs x8 in the 3+ week. Today I have the 1+ day and quite sure I’ll be able to hit 6 reps (shooting for 7). Overall it’s the best improving lift.

Overhead Press - estimated 1RM @134lbs, right before starting 5/3/1 the tested 1RM was 128lbs. Slowest lift to progress, as expected, yesterday I was able to hit 5 reps in the 1+ day (I use a 90% TM and was recommended here on the boards to hit at least 4 reps without grind on 1+ days as good measure of NOT stalling, so I’m gonna swallow the results and see where I go from there).

Front Squats - don’t have a 1RM on these because I’m still perfecting technique so I’m going super slow. I started off placing the 1RM at170lbs (my bodyweight) which is on the low side for me, but worked wonders to improve my technique. My issue with these is in thoracic mobility, I tend to fall forward a bit, has improved a ton but I stop the AMRAP sets as soon as I feel form is breaking down, even slightly (hence my question about Good Mornings and thoracic mobility btw, if they can also help with that it’s going to be golden)

Short term goal is 2x bw deadlift. Long term goal is 1x bw OHP and 2x bw deadlift x3 then x5


#6

I wouldn’t even worry too much about any assistance or supplemental work at this point man. Just focus really hard on your main movements and hammer the fuck out of them. And eat a good bit as well. If you work hard, you won’t have too much to worry about as far as fat gain. I was like you for awhile when I started out and didn’t notice much difference until I focused hard on the main movements to increase. I started deadlifting more often instead of trying to do exercises to build it up and went from around 440 to a 505 pull at 195. Just focus on the majors and don’t major in the minors


#7

I like alternating lower and upper body work outs to push the heart and lungs harder. So in this context I would do dead lifts, rows, good mornings, and then chin ups (I always like doing chins after exercises that compress the spine).

Right now I am following a four day program: day one squats, day two dead lifts, day three squats, and day four good mornings. Dead lifts hit a lot of muscles at the same time and at my age I need more recovery time than I used to.


#8

I get what you mean, but assistance stuff is already kept at a minimum - usually 2-3 exercises per workout.
I don’t understand what you mean by “deadlifting more often” - more than once a week? Doesn’t sound like a good idea… as of now, Deadlift day is the heaviest day. Not saying I get out of the gym dead, I almost never do it, but I really push.
At the same time, I understand what you mean and I agree, the focus is on the main lifts, no doubt… but the fact that they are performed first automatically gives them all the attention needed.
I go there, do the main lifts as best as possible, then catch some breath and do the assistance stuff without breaking my head too much. If I just do the main lifts and go home, I’m leaving potential for growth on the table.

EDIT
Btw, just got back from Deadlift day, did 7 reps on the 1+ set, hooray :smiley: tried with very light good mornings (like, 40% bodyweight) while being checked by the trainer who does strength/oly stuff, said they are ok. From what I understand, they’re basically a romanian deadlift with the bar on the back

EDIT 2
Also, I lost weight in the last month or so. 2-3 pounds. Honestly no idea why since I’m eating plenty. Weight decreased a bit, body fat I can tell decreased a bit, strength increased and energy levels are more than good. Dunno, maybe some residuals of beginner’s gains


#9

If you do good mornings do not use a weight close to your squat weights. Do a search here for good mornings and you’ll probably get a better understanding of how to use them. It’s a great exercise but done wrong can really mess you up.
I believe Wendler has talked on one of these forums about how he regrets the way he used good mornings during his Westside days - namely going too heavy.


#10

the guys over at Diesel Crew put out a deadlifting 101 pdf some time ago thats about 18 pages.

They go over the good morning in the simplest way.

Weight: Start with the bar and add 5 lbs or 2.5kg per week. Leave your ego at the door


#11
  1. Do back raises for high reps (50-100 total) instead of good mornings after DL. Good mornings would be better after squats (at least that’s what I have found). Start light, focus on getting your technique just right for high reps.

  2. Kroc rows are awesome. I’ve found them best after benching, but more importantly never the day before deadlifting. They don’t leave any part of you alone. I wouldn’t want to do them after DL.


#12

Start with the bar and add slowly with GM, when you have worked up, they will be around 50% of your squat. I like them for reps of 8-10.
I like to use them after DL then rows. So for me it’s DL, GM, rows.
On GMs set the safety’s at the level of your navel. Remember your not using it as a max effort movement,so good form helps.


#13

I’d start with super light weight on the good mornings it’s a pretty tricky movement. I never liked them and felt that stiff leg deadlifts did more for me. But your idea of doing the Kroc rows second sounds best


#14

I’ve always done Kroc Rows on Bench days.