T Nation

Kobe vs. Shaq; The Most Valuble?

I know that there are a number a Laker Fans here, so I wanted some opinions and thoughts.

There are two ways to look at this:

  1. SHORT TERM, Shaq is proving that he most likely was the more valuble asset out of the two, in that Miami is winning…while the Lakers have been a classic study in turmoil and chaos…

  2. LONG TERM, one could argue that being younger, Kobe is the “future” of the Lakers. The problem with this argument is that how long does one wait for the “Jordan-ish” leadership to come out in Kobe…one that inspires his team instead of bringing out their resentment?

  3. At what point do the Lakers “cut their losses” with Kobe?

Thoughts?

Mufasa

vs. steve nash, that guy is my hero

-Shaq—most likely? I believe it goes without saying. The only thing long term about Kobe is the length of that time. Come to think of it, maybe that’s not so good.
Kobe is a great talent, but that doesn’t make him great. He just isn’t a winner. He doesn’t make his surrounding cast better than the sum of their individual parts.
He is the typical professional athlete of our current times.
It is the very rare qualities that MJ, Larry Bird, Magic posessed that set them apart.
All the love here-goes to Shaq

Kobe is a horrible, selfish fuck little girl tattle tale bitch. What great player in their right mind is ever going to want to play with him again? Dude ran two hall of famers out of town and got the greatest coach of the modern era fired.

I just hope it’s kind of a Dante’s hell thing for him to drag a mediocre team around the rest of his career, scoring 30 points a night and not making the playoffs. Suck on that bitch!

Other than that, I really respect the miserable fucking date-raping puke.

On a side note, James Worthy was at the gym the other day. I was a huge fan of the 80’s Lakers, so I talked to him. Very cool guy. This was before Shaq got traded. He wouldn’t flat out say it, but you could tell he was disgusted by Kobe’s selfish attitude. (Okay, I said it and he agreed.)

“…He doesn’t make his surrounding cast better than the sum of their individual parts…”

Good point, Sas…that was definitely a quality of the people that you metioned…

Mufasa

futuredave:

Quit holding back!

Tell us what you REALLY think about Kobe!

LOL!

Mufasa

[quote]Orbitalboner wrote:
vs. steve nash, that guy is my hero[/quote]

Steve Nash totally deserves it

[quote]Orbitalboner wrote:
vs. steve nash, that guy is my hero[/quote]

Steve Nash totally deserves the honour of being MVP

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
futuredave:

Quit holding back!

Tell us what you REALLY think about Kobe!

LOL!

Mufasa[/quote]

You’re right, M! I should stop walking on eggshells.

Seriously, I live in LA and I think he disgraced this franchise in so many ways. There’s a long legacy of great players and teams here and the sooner they get rid of him, the better.

Even the last championship they won, it was basically Kobe coming down and playing one on five street ball with Shaq getting rebounds and put backs. He is just not a team player. (But who is these days?) Maybe LeBron… I like his game and attitude a lot.

Obviously Shaq is older, but you see how in Miami he’s not trying to hog the team. He’s worked himself into the offense and made everyone better. Look how all their shooting percentages have gone up.

Steve Nash is the new John Stockton. A true stud. And either he or the Deisel is a worthy MVP imho.

Wasn’t Kobe signed to a long-term contract?

Maybe we will be eating our words in a few years…but if they did, that seems like a mistake…

Mufasa

I think last year (the Piston’s)…the Spurs with their wins…and of course the “Jordan” Bulls showed us that having a Superstar(s)may be important…but not nearly as important as working as a team…

Corny…but true…

Mufasa

Kobe single-handedly destroyed the Lakers. It doesn’t matter how many points he scores anymore. Shaq could do a turd more valuable than him.

I’m a Lakers fan as well. I think they’re both prima donnas. I don’t know why everyone is acting so surprised that Heat are doing so well this year and the Lakers aren’t. I could have told you this result at the beginning of the season.

Not to take anything away from Shaq, but comparing Shaq’s performance this season to Kobe’s performance this season based on their team’s records is like comparing apples to colorado rape victims. Shaq went to a team with a much better supporting cast.

Heck Dwayne Wade is a respectable Kobe replacement this season, who does Kobe have that compares anything even close to Shaq? Vlade divac? Oh yeah, he’s on the injured list.

Complicated by how the game has changed and how it may change in the next 5 years.

First off, Jordan was the only player I can think of (and maybe Lebron) who you could build a championship team around composed entirely of role players. The bulls had a team of players perfectly suited for very specific roles. I think that without Jordan, I’d say they were quite similar to the Pistons from last year. Jordan did things that never showed up on paper. 1-I saw in one analysis that he had the ball in his hands 80% of the time on offense. He really played a position that doesn’t exist today. He was the center of all ball movement like a point guard, but he could post up anyone as well-and very strong-I think I saw that he benched 325. He could pass too. He averaged 6-7 assists per game and 6-7 rebounds per game throughout his prime. Second, on defense he was the most feared man in the league. He basically played free safety and turned defense into offense. I think he was the greatest defensive non-center ever.

Kobe already looks over the hill. His shooting percentage is down to .430 over the last 2 years which is probably around the league average. He is averaging a huge 10+ free throw attempts per game, but Jordan shot 52% and got to the line-granted in a bigger offensive age, but the Bulls played games much slower and lower scoring.

Now, Kobe is 26 and Jordan haden’t won a championship by that age. He won his first at 27 and had his last MVP at 32 so I’d say Kobe has maybe the next 5-6 years to win some. Shaq is 33 and as a center still could have 5 more big years. I’d say thoug, put Kobe on a team like the Pistons-and assuming the right chemistry-and they’d be a force for 5-6 years. Now, if you put Shaq on the Lakers right now with the players they’ve got and take away Kobe and they’d be legitimate contenders.

How many rings did Shaq win before coming to the Lakers?

I can’t remember any either.

How many will he win post-Laker? I doubt any.

Kobe made Shaq and vice-versa. Apart, they will continue to be really good players, but neither will ever be unselfish enough to be a champion.

sasquatch: Kobe isn’t a winner? He has 3 championships and he is only like 27 years old. How can anyone make a team that sucks that bad good.

futuredave: lol Phil Jackson is the greatest coach of the modern era. It’s called being handed great players. What’s next the Cavs? He knows LeBron will win atleast a few.

futuredave: did the lakers make the worse trade in nba history? of course they did. there is nobody in the league that guarantees a championship shot like shaq. of course the team is better and their fg% if better. wade is in his 2nd season. all the guys get wide open shots because of shaq in the middle.

randman: now you are about the only one on this thread who knows his ass from a hole in the ground.

mertdawg: you tipped the stupidity meter with your kobe is over the hill comment. wow you obviously know nothing about basketball. does an over the hill player average 28 pts a game, 6 ast, 6 reb, 80+ ft %? yeah, didnt think so.

mertdawg:

GREAT stuff, brother!

Your post brought up some questions that I’ve had lately:

  1. Do you see Cleveland (with LaBron) winning some championships?

  2. Realted to number 1, what do you think happened to Kevin Garnett (or the Timberwolves)?

He came in with the same “promise” of Championships galore as LaBron…

  1. In this day and time of “selfish” play…will they be able to build “role players” around LaBron? Or will Cleveland suffer the fate of the Timberwolves and KG?

Mufasa

[quote]provy07 wrote:
mertdawg: you tipped the stupidity meter with your kobe is over the hill comment. wow you obviously know nothing about basketball. does an over the hill player average 28 pts a game, 6 ast, 6 reb, 80+ ft %? yeah, didnt think so.[/quote]

The 6 assists is pretty good considering who he’s playing with. When you shoot 43% for two years entering your prime I guess there’s plenty of rebounds to fall into your lap. He does get to the line (and hit) which is often overlooked, but if he was anywhere near the best player in the league the Lakers would have come close to 70 last year. If numbers were so important, here’s one for you. Alex English averaged almost exactly the 4 stats you mentioned for Kobe (27 points, 5.5 assists, 5.4 rebounds, 85% FT%) for 7 consecutive years and isn’t even on the 50 greatest players in history list.

If the Lakers were one of the top ten defensive teams in the league Kobe might be one of the 2-3 most valuable. The difference with MJ is that he made the bulls one of the best defensive teams in the league, while Kobe is maybe average. If he became a true defensive force, he could be the best right now. Anyway, I never like to see a guy’s FG% drop from above to below the league average during a period when he’s supposed to be entering his prime.

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

  1. Do you see Cleveland (with LaBron) winning some championships?

  2. Realted to number 1, what do you think happened to Kevin Garnett (or the Timberwolves)?
    Mufasa[/quote]

Lebron is good enough that he doesn’t need another star. A championship team can be built here with correctly fit role players. Garnett still is unique. Against Denver in the playoffs last year there were times when you got the feeling that he could not be stopped. The difference is that Lebron has the ball in his hands. Also, Lebron is almost anti-selfish. He almost needs to get more selfish in some situations, but he clearly wants to improve his all around game and doesn’t care about stats.

I REALLY admire Lebron’s unexpected intelligence.

I just pray that Lebron doesn’t end up with the scandals ala Carmelo, Kobe and even Jordan to a degree with the infedelity. He is the first player truly “in control” come game time that I’ve seen since Jordan.

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Complicated by how the game has changed and how it may change in the next 5 years.

First off, Jordan was the only player I can think of (and maybe Lebron) who you could build a championship team around composed entirely of role players. The bulls had a team of players perfectly suited for very specific roles. I think that without Jordan, I’d say they were quite similar to the Pistons from last year. Jordan did things that never showed up on paper. 1-I saw in one analysis that he had the ball in his hands 80% of the time on offense. He really played a position that doesn’t exist today. He was the center of all ball movement like a point guard, but he could post up anyone as well-and very strong-I think I saw that he benched 325. He could pass too. He averaged 6-7 assists per game and 6-7 rebounds per game throughout his prime. Second, on defense he was the most feared man in the league. He basically played free safety and turned defense into offense. I think he was the greatest defensive non-center ever.

Kobe already looks over the hill. His shooting percentage is down to .430 over the last 2 years which is probably around the league average. He is averaging a huge 10+ free throw attempts per game, but Jordan shot 52% and got to the line-granted in a bigger offensive age, but the Bulls played games much slower and lower scoring.

Now, Kobe is 26 and Jordan haden’t won a championship by that age. He won his first at 27 and had his last MVP at 32 so I’d say Kobe has maybe the next 5-6 years to win some. Shaq is 33 and as a center still could have 5 more big years. I’d say thoug, put Kobe on a team like the Pistons-and assuming the right chemistry-and they’d be a force for 5-6 years. Now, if you put Shaq on the Lakers right now with the players they’ve got and take away Kobe and they’d be legitimate contenders. [/quote]

I agree with everything you said except 2 things. #1) Kobe looking over the hill. Ok, he may look over the hill to you but he’s not. He just has no solid, consistent role players to help him anymore. He’s got double and triple teams on him constantly and that’s why all of his stats have taken a dip.

#2) Replacing Kobe with Shaq would most definitely NOT make the Lakers an automatic contender. Yes, they would make the playoffs but they wouldn’t make it past the first or second round. The reason why the heat are doing so well cuz he’s got excellent role players around hime. That is not the case with the Lakers.