In my 34 years I’m very fortunate to say I’ve never been in a situation where I’ve needed either.
[quote]hedo wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
hedo wrote:
Most people will survive a single handgun shot. A major knife wound is much more difficult to survive and more difficult to fix if you make it to the ER.
Outside of 30 ft. a gun would be superior. Inside 30ft. you might not have time to deploy your handgun against a proficient attacker.
.
I think surviving a gunshot wound has a lot to do with caliber/bullet and shot placement. A guy at ten yards ain’t surviving most shots to the head/brain with a 357 or better or the heart lungs for that matter.
On your second point thirty feet is quite a distance. I think you’d have ample time to pull either at that distance. Maybe at five feet a knife would be an advantage if you a fast easy access place where you packed it.
D
Yes shot placement and type of weapon has a lot to do with it. Most people can’t hit a stationary 4" target at 21 ft., let alone hit it while it’s moving towards you (a headshot). Most handgun trainers teach to fire center of mass.
I’ve never seen a man, during training, draw a weapon from concealment and fire it at an attacker coming at him with a knife, in time to put him down, unless the assailant was more then 30ft. away. The old standard was 21 ft. as proposed by Dennis Tueller.
Getting proficient with a handgun, in close quarters, under stress is not as easy as it looks.[/quote]
Hedo, Just got back from close quarters training. Gunfighting “in the hole” - zero to 5 feet. Lessons learned: drawing against a knife without doing anything to deal with the knife is fruitless. A few quick, aggressive, combatives before the draw, however, can make all the difference in the world. There’s no guarantee you won’t get cut, but the combatives will buy enough time to draw and get off a bunch of well placed (though unsighted) rounds.
Conditioning matters. A few seconds of rolling around on the ground trying to gain an advantage in a fight leaves an almost 50 year old guy sucking wind.
Weapons malfunction. It doesn’t take much to put a semi-auto out of battery when the target is pressed against the gun.
Appendix carry is easier to access than 3 to 5 o’clock when you are rolling around on the ground.
Close cover garments (t-shirts in particular) frequently foul a draw when one hand is involved in the draw and the other hand is occupied in a fight.
[quote]Bad John wrote:
There’s an old joke about bringing a knife to a gun fight. Anyone who lives where they can actually carry a firearm but prefers a knife for self defense is living in lala land. There’s a reason cops carry firearms, and it isn’t because chicks dig it. [/quote]
The old saying, “don’t bring a knife to a gun fight” loses validity in the zero to 5 feet range.
[quote]hedo wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
hedo wrote:
Most people will survive a single handgun shot. A major knife wound is much more difficult to survive and more difficult to fix if you make it to the ER.
Outside of 30 ft. a gun would be superior. Inside 30ft. you might not have time to deploy your handgun against a proficient attacker.
.
I think surviving a gunshot wound has a lot to do with caliber/bullet and shot placement. A guy at ten yards ain’t surviving most shots to the head/brain with a 357 or better or the heart lungs for that matter.
On your second point thirty feet is quite a distance. I think you’d have ample time to pull either at that distance. Maybe at five feet a knife would be an advantage if you a fast easy access place where you packed it.
D
Yes shot placement and type of weapon has a lot to do with it. Most people can’t hit a stationary 4" target at 21 ft., let alone hit it while it’s moving towards you (a headshot). Most handgun trainers teach to fire center of mass.
I’ve never seen a man, during training, draw a weapon from concealment and fire it at an attacker coming at him with a knife, in time to put him down, unless the assailant was more then 30ft. away. The old standard was 21 ft. as proposed by Dennis Tueller.
Getting proficient with a handgun, in close quarters, under stress is not as easy as it looks.[/quote]
I hear you man, but even with a rudimentary handgun skill level most, expect the greenest of the green, could plug at least two or three shots center mass at ten or fifteen yards. Unless the assailant was coming in at the speed of a charging grizzly. With a knife you’d have to wait to near contact before you could make your attempt at a lethal attack.
And, on the lethality of a knife I’ve seen several of those ‘I Survived’ shows on A&E where they recount many examples of people surviving attacks from criminals and a host of em, mainly women, who the perp attempted to kill after raping them survived knifing’s where they were stabbed twenty or thirty times and lucked out because the blade missed vital organs.
Not trying to be argumentative, but in the spirit of debate (which is what this threads about, gun or knife) give me a gun first and foremost but if ones not available I’ll take a knife. Last resort would be fists and teeth if need be!
D
[quote]lostinthought wrote:
In my 34 years I’m very fortunate to say I’ve never been in a situation where I’ve needed either. [/quote]
I’d rather hear the testimonials from the dead folks who didn’t see the need to carry either.
[quote]lostinthought wrote:
In my 34 years I’m very fortunate to say I’ve never been in a situation where I’ve needed either. [/quote]
That’s awesome! Neither have I and hopefully I never will, but it doesn’t stop those of us who like shooting and such from discussing such scenarios. And, most quote unquote, mainstream people, who have suffered through a violent attack where their life was in danger never thought they’d be in that situation, in their lives, either.
D
[quote]Dedicated wrote:
hedo wrote:
Dedicated wrote:
hedo wrote:
Most people will survive a single handgun shot. A major knife wound is much more difficult to survive and more difficult to fix if you make it to the ER.
Outside of 30 ft. a gun would be superior. Inside 30ft. you might not have time to deploy your handgun against a proficient attacker.
.
I think surviving a gunshot wound has a lot to do with caliber/bullet and shot placement. A guy at ten yards ain’t surviving most shots to the head/brain with a 357 or better or the heart lungs for that matter.
On your second point thirty feet is quite a distance. I think you’d have ample time to pull either at that distance. Maybe at five feet a knife would be an advantage if you a fast easy access place where you packed it.
D
Yes shot placement and type of weapon has a lot to do with it. Most people can’t hit a stationary 4" target at 21 ft., let alone hit it while it’s moving towards you (a headshot). Most handgun trainers teach to fire center of mass.
I’ve never seen a man, during training, draw a weapon from concealment and fire it at an attacker coming at him with a knife, in time to put him down, unless the assailant was more then 30ft. away. The old standard was 21 ft. as proposed by Dennis Tueller.
Getting proficient with a handgun, in close quarters, under stress is not as easy as it looks.
I hear you man, but even with a rudimentary handgun skill level most, expect the greenest of the green, could plug at least two or three shots center mass at ten or fifteen yards. Unless the assailant was coming in at the speed of a charging grizzly. With a knife you’d have to wait to near contact before you could make your attempt at a lethal attack.
And, on the lethality of a knife I’ve seen several of those ‘I Survived’ shows on A&E where they recount many examples of people surviving attacks from criminals and a host of em, mainly women, who the perp attempted to kill after raping them survived knifing’s where they were stabbed twenty or thirty times and lucked out because the blade missed vital organs.
Not trying to be argumentative, but in the spirit of debate (which is what this threads about, gun or knife) give me a gun first and foremost but if ones not available I’ll take a knife. Last resort would be fists and teeth if need be!
D[/quote]
Dead
No worries. I love talking about guns and I’m happy to do it all day! Love the discussion.
Here’s the thing about a knife. A thug will jab you with it. If the cut isn’t deep or hitting a vital area and you have access to medical treatment you will survive. A guy who know’s what he is doing will make a long slashing cut that you will never be able to close. If he jab’s he is going to go deep, turn the blade and V cut out of your body with it. Even if you get to the ER you will probably bleed out.
Loose Tool,
You experience with CQB training mirrors mine. Your going to get cut that’s for sure and trying to draw on a knife can get you killed unless you get some control of it first. CQB training was the only firearms training at which I actually bled…and we were using rubber knives and airsoft pistols!
If you read the book “Little Black Book of Violence,” you will see that they’ve posted the results of a test by researchers that stated that a man with a knife inside of 21 feet can close that distance and fatally wound a man before he can effectively draw and fire his weapon. These were trained police officers, too.
It’s the same as anything else- as Marc Macyoung says, “Just because you have a hammer, doesn’t mean everything is a nail.” Select the right tool for the job. Your gun does you know good if it’s still in its holster.
So it depends on the situation. As for what I’d rather face, that depends on the situation. If it’s a situation where i can get out of there, I’m going to have to say a knife. Easier to run from, and it’s not a distance weapon. However, if wounded with either a gun or a knife, you have a good chance of quickly going into shock and losing your ability to defend yourself, so I’d say neither.
Although I did read a statistic that said that 70 percent of American males carry a knife now. I do, but it’s not for self defense. I’m not killing sentries as I walk down the street.
And by the way, if a guy has a knife, you’re probably not going to know until he’s stabbed you with it. People that want to kill you aren’t going to posture and give you a chance to react- you’ll just be bleeding and then will have to figure out how it happened.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
If you read the book “Little Black Book of Violence,” you will see that they’ve posted the results of a test by researchers that stated that a man with a knife inside of 21 feet can close that distance and fatally wound a man before he can effectively draw and fire his weapon. These were trained police officers, too.
It’s the same as anything else- as Marc Macyoung says, “Just because you have a hammer, doesn’t mean everything is a nail.” Select the right tool for the job. Your gun does you know good if it’s still in its holster.
So it depends on the situation. As for what I’d rather face, that depends on the situation. If it’s a situation where i can get out of there, I’m going to have to say a knife. Easier to run from, and it’s not a distance weapon. However, if wounded with either a gun or a knife, you have a good chance of quickly going into shock and losing your ability to defend yourself, so I’d say neither.
Although I did read a statistic that said that 70 percent of American males carry a knife now. I do, but it’s not for self defense. I’m not killing sentries as I walk down the street.[/quote]
But, how is drawing a knife any damn faster then drawing a gun? Or is the scenario you’re walking around with a knife in your hand but a gun in the holster when someone decides to attack you?
D
[quote]Dedicated wrote:
But, how is drawing a knife any damn faster then drawing a gun? Or is the scenario you’re walking around with a knife in your hand but a gun in the holster when someone decides to attack you?
D
[/quote]
As I recall it was a man with a knife out (as he would if he had just committed a violent crime, I suppose) against an officer with his gun holstered.
And if you have a folder that has a clip into your pocket with a thumb stud, that can be drawn pretty damn quick.
[quote]hedo wrote:
Yes shot placement and type of weapon has a lot to do with it. Most people can’t hit a stationary 4" target at 21 ft., let alone hit it while it’s moving towards you (a headshot). Most handgun trainers teach to fire center of mass.
I’ve never seen a man, during training, draw a weapon from concealment and fire it at an attacker coming at him with a knife, in time to put him down, unless the assailant was more then 30ft. away. The old standard was 21 ft. as proposed by Dennis Tueller.
[/quote]
That’s exactly the study I was talking about. If an officer who has to qualify three or four time a year can’t do it, I’m not even attempting it.
Throwing stars.
I would choose a kobutan. That way I wont kill people as easily by accident. Also, if I loose my weapon, it wont be as lethal if someone decides to use it against me.
yeah!
(a bladed version)
Bare knuckles but I have a knife and 5 guns
Really depends on who is handling the weapon. A ninja with a knife could kill a dumbass with a gun. A marksman with a gun could kill a dumbass with a knife. Ninja versus marksman? Well… what distance are they from each other? Too man variables.
Weapons in general are fun. I’d personally choose a my gun over my knife though.
[quote]hedo wrote:
At contact distances a knife is very deadly. The user doesn’t have to be good with it either, just determined.
Most people will survive a single handgun shot. A major knife wound is much more difficult to survive and more difficult to fix if you make it to the ER.
Outside of 30 ft. a gun would be superior. Inside 30ft. you might not have time to deploy your handgun against a proficient attacker.
I carry both with me.[/quote]
The radius can vary but a knife fighter who knows what he’s doing can kill even cops before they can deploy their gun. Sure, if the gun is out, the knife guy’s done. But then, unless the person is well trained, its pretty hard to shoot a moving person with a handgun. Read somewhere that if you simply run away at a 90 degree angle to the gun, there’s only a 4 percent chance of being shot. I don’t remember where I read that.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
hedo wrote:
At contact distances a knife is very deadly. The user doesn’t have to be good with it either, just determined.
Most people will survive a single handgun shot. A major knife wound is much more difficult to survive and more difficult to fix if you make it to the ER.
Outside of 30 ft. a gun would be superior. Inside 30ft. you might not have time to deploy your handgun against a proficient attacker.
I carry both with me.
The radius can vary but a knife fighter who knows what he’s doing can kill even cops before they can deploy their gun. Sure, if the gun is out, the knife guy’s done. But then, unless the person is well trained, its pretty hard to shoot a moving person with a handgun. Read somewhere that if you simply run away at a 90 degree angle to the gun, there’s only a 4 percent chance of being shot. I don’t remember where I read that.
[/quote]
Cops are burdened by their equipment. Most departments require a retention holster for patrolman. It takes a lot of practice to get it out of the holster smoothly. They are designed for retention and comfortable carry rather then a smooth draw.
I would agree with your estimate regarding hitting a moving target. Most shooters do very poorly hitting a target that is moving. It takes training and practice. In gun fighting and combat speed kills.
[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
Bad John wrote:
There’s an old joke about bringing a knife to a gun fight. Anyone who lives where they can actually carry a firearm but prefers a knife for self defense is living in lala land. There’s a reason cops carry firearms, and it isn’t because chicks dig it.
The old saying, “don’t bring a knife to a gun fight” loses validity in the zero to 5 feet range.
[/quote]
i’m not sure i 100% agree with this.