T Nation

Knees and Jumping, Squatting, Sprinting

Hey, all. I notice that whenever I sprint or walk long-distance several times a week - and, to a lesser extent, squat and deadlift - I start to have a blunt pain in my knees, especially when I bend them. I’m worried about what I might be doing wrong; I don’t think it’s the lifts, as I squat atg and generally get more pain from sprints/walks/skipping rope.

What should I do? Is there some thread or book I could get on making my knees stronger? I’m quite worried as HIIT is a big part of my workout and sprinting+ jump rope are the two most accessible forms of it. Plus, I want to start jumping, and shudder to think about all the damage that might cause.

(P.S. I’m pretty sure this isn’t a mental thing. I was sprinting on a treadmill barefoot last summer and sprained/stretched/whatever my knee, had to put running on pause for a while after that)

So, yes, any help or direction would be greatly appreciated!

~G

One suggestion: TKEs

Several part series and worth it. I had some jumper’s knee-like problems and doing these consistently really helped out.

how’s your fish oil intake? I am a swimmer who competes in sprint/middle distance events. Most practices are of the HIIT style and during my first two seasons in college suffered from constant shoulder pain during the height of the season. I started taking fish oil regularly this past season, something like 15-25g per day. I have had almost no problems with my shoulders or any other joint pain since starting this. If your technique is good, that’s the only recommendation i’ve got for you. best of luck.

[quote]mikepop878 wrote:
how’s your fish oil intake? I am a swimmer who competes in sprint/middle distance events. Most practices are of the HIIT style and during my first two seasons in college suffered from constant shoulder pain during the height of the season. I started taking fish oil regularly this past season, something like 15-25g per day. I have had almost no problems with my shoulders or any other joint pain since starting this. If your technique is good, that’s the only recommendation i’ve got for you. best of luck.[/quote]

Thanks! Wow… 15-25g!? I take cod liver oil and flaxseed oil, amounting to about 3g; cook with about 3g of olive oil throughout the day; and eat a few eggs, so maybe 4g of good fats from that. I also eat fish or meat every day, which is more fat… But, that’s about it. Am I not eating enough good fats? Wow, 15-25 grams is really huge, I have no idea how I’d get that much, a capsule is only 1g… Liquid oil for the win, I 'spose.

Ah, another question, while this thread is active; how bad is HIIT for joints in the long-term? Especially in jumping and sprinting. Same question for olympic lifts; I love all of these activities, but if I can’t do them without harming my bones and joints in the long term, I’d be prepared to give up on them. Once again, I’m sure there’s a book or thread on this somewhere, so if anyone would be kind enough to point me in the right direction, I can take it from there :slight_smile:

Edit:

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
One suggestion: TKEs

Several part series and worth it. I had some jumper’s knee-like problems and doing these consistently really helped out.[/quote]

Cheers… I’ll def check this video out and do further research on TKE tomorrow, too tired to understand anything right now.

quoting myself…

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
something that need stressing - make sure your doing foam rolling and self myofascial tissue work with tennis/golf ball, or small balls ( yes even a mini BBall pumped tight works great) or other objects like the corner of a bench top…

On your off days to keep scar tissue and adhesion build up to a minimum and keep your fascia nice and loose so your body works properly and is in alignment.
It will greatly reduce damage from jumping and training, and keep jumpers knee at bay… I speak from personal experience :slight_smile:
And allow you to squat way deeper without your lower back tucking under in an oly full squat. Loosen up the glutes with a tennis ball against the wall until all painful trigger points are gone etc

Even shoulder pain too…

Start from the bottom of the feet and work up.

background info
http://laurensfitness.com/2008/03/06/fascia-part-1-an-important-piece-of-the-pain-puzzle/

articles
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=475832


http://laurensfitness.com/2008/02/24/tennis-ball-part-1-a-tool-you-never-knew-you-had/

vids



[/quote]

[quote]G87 wrote:
mikepop878 wrote:
how’s your fish oil intake? I am a swimmer who competes in sprint/middle distance events. Most practices are of the HIIT style and during my first two seasons in college suffered from constant shoulder pain during the height of the season. I started taking fish oil regularly this past season, something like 15-25g per day. I have had almost no problems with my shoulders or any other joint pain since starting this. If your technique is good, that’s the only recommendation i’ve got for you. best of luck.

Thanks! Wow… 15-25g!? I take cod liver oil and flaxseed oil, amounting to about 3g; cook with about 3g of olive oil throughout the day; and eat a few eggs, so maybe 4g of good fats from that. I also eat fish or meat every day, which is more fat… But, that’s about it. Am I not eating enough good fats? Wow, 15-25 grams is really huge, I have no idea how I’d get that much, a capsule is only 1g… Liquid oil for the win, I 'spose.

Ah, another question, while this thread is active; how bad is HIIT for joints in the long-term? Especially in jumping and sprinting. Same question for olympic lifts; I love all of these activities, but if I can’t do them without harming my bones and joints in the long term, I’d be prepared to give up on them. Once again, I’m sure there’s a book or thread on this somewhere, so if anyone would be kind enough to point me in the right direction, I can take it from there :slight_smile:

Edit:
jtrinsey wrote:
One suggestion: TKEs

Several part series and worth it. I had some jumper’s knee-like problems and doing these consistently really helped out.

Cheers… I’ll def check this video out and do further research on TKE tomorrow, too tired to understand anything right now. [/quote]

In regards to the fish oil topic, its much easier to take a tablespoon of fish oil after breakfast, lunch and dinner, taking the pills is a pain in the ass however a table spoon is 15ml

btw the tastes isnt half bad either, its the oil texture that makes it hard to swallow at times

where in your knee is it? if its onthe outside near the bottomish, its probably your IT band. get to that foam roller…

Take two servings of glucosamine a day. This stuff is absolutely AWESOME for all joint health.

I used to have chronic knee pain (and I’m only 15, so I was extremely worried) and it got to the point that I couldn’t even walk or stand up from a chair with no knee pain.

Then, after about 2-4 weeks of taking two servings of glucosamine (once in the morning, once before bed) I had literally no pain.

Magic? Maybe.

Sounds like jumper’s knee. I get it from time to time. It hurts worse when my knees are bent. It makes it difficult to drive long distances etc…

I have similar symptons and since I have started on a fish oil, glucosomine and soft tissue regiment I have been much happier. The soft tissue work as well as hip mobility and psoa work has taken a tremendous amount of what I would call percieved knee stress away. I do some tennis ball rolling for the soles of my feet too.

It comes back from time to time but no where near the same intensity or for the same duration.

R.I.C.E.

Never forget…

[quote]beebuddy wrote:
R.I.C.E.

Never forget…[/quote]

Explain, please?

Rest, Ice, Compression, and Elevation.

It works wonders. Most are just too lazy to do anything but rest. It does speed up recovery though.

Ah, gotcha; but that list sounds like it’s made for recovery and rehabilitation, not prehab and troubleshooting. I’ll jot it down, though.

It will improve your workouts, but you are right. It’s one of the mandatories after a major injury. The heavier you go and the older you get every workout starts to feel like a recovery, lol.

read my freaking post again!!!

I had jumpers knee real bad, couldn’t squat and land from a jump with pain in both knees

after a few sessions of foam rolling and tennis ball massage starting from the bottom of the feet and up, it got much better, the pain completely disappeared after the 3rd week - I only did it once a week initially, more often now, split to different muscle groups on each day. I did every muscle in my body

even though I’m still tight, with trigger points, although less painful now, my ankle and hip mobility improved dramatically. I feel loose and supple everywhere now, like a teenager pretty much :slight_smile:

Jumps landings feel soft.
I can even squat deeper in an oly squat, without my butt tucking under. Use a narrow stance without any knee pain, even a front squat in regular flat sneakers, narrow stance rock bottom is easy to do, thanks to my better ankle mobility as a result of foam rolling out my painful calves

Helped fixed up my shoulder problems and impingement pain too. Pecs, upper traps and lats really tight from years of sitting in front of a PC. I was finally able to get my upper arms above parallel in a scapular wall slide this week. And finally did a behind the neck press with an oly bar pain free!!!

Tissue work should be compulsory for anyone who trains, because training causes scar tissue and adhesion buildup. Stretching is almost useless until the fascia has been loosened up by foam rolling/massage/tennis ball work etc

this is the order you should approach it

tissue work ( foam rolling, massage etc) --> mobility work --> stretching —> corrective exercises

It is hard work, takes effort, is tiring and time consuming, but if you desire to save money - ART is not cheap, and want to push yourself hard like a Formula 1 car, you need to put in the maintenance work too…high performance engines are highly strung and go bang real quick…

are you sprinting, long distance walking and jumping on grass???

i was scheduled for torn meniscus surgery in both knees but i didn’t have the cash for the co-payment. So i had it rescheduled for 3 months later to save up, and was making plans for my recovery when i read an article that basically said

“hey idiot, we were evolved for walking and sprinting on grass, dirt, sand etc., not asphalt or concrete”.
Grass, dirt, and sand are all very forgiving surfaces, and easy on the joints. Because THATS WHAT our joints were Darwin selected for. Not asphalt,concrete, artifical turf etc.

Hell there are still plenty of people on earth in remote locations who’ve never worn shoes! And think nothing of it.

Of course you can say our “modern” shoes take all the punishment out of the modern surfaces. Thats just what Nike wants you to say.

So why are all the NFL teams going back to grass or new “just like grass” surfaces??? if our sports shoes are so good and protective for our joints.
We’ve only had massive pavement for the last 2 or 3 generations. Our genes will not adapt for quite some time.

During my 3 month wait for surgery i found a middle school grass football field and started doing light jogging, working up to sprints 3 times a week (i use to run distance and sprints at a university track).

The knees healed on their own because i took the source of the problem away.

That was 3 years ago. I don’t do any running on anything but grass. Squating is painfree now as well, and alot heavier that before the meniscus tears.

try it, your knees will thank you.
its simple how your body was designed.

LB

The quoted replies are abbreviated to make life easier for everyone a

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
read my freaking post again!!!
[/quote]

Did you read your own post again, or this an invitation for me to do so? I did read it, actually, yesterday, and have ordered a foam roller since :slight_smile: I just didn’t read all the articles yet, so I didn’t want to reply prematurely.

[quote]CoolColJ wrote:
I had jumpers knee real bad, couldn’t squat and land from a jump with pain in both knees

after a few sessions of foam rolling and tennis ball massage starting from the bottom of the feet and up, it got much better, the pain completely disappeared after the 3rd week - I only did it once a week initially, more often now, split to different muscle groups on each day. I did every muscle in my body

even though I’m still tight, with trigger points, although less painful now, my ankle and hip mobility improved dramatically. I feel loose and supple everywhere now, like a teenager pretty much :slight_smile:

I can even squat deeper in an oly squat, without my butt tucking under. Use a narrow stance without any knee pain, even a front squat in regular flat sneakers, narrow stance rock bottom is easy to do, thanks to my better ankle mobility as a result of foam rolling out my painful calves

Helped fixed up my shoulder problems and impingement pain too. Pecs, upper traps and lats really tight from years of sitting in front of a PC. I was finally able to get my upper arms above parallel in a scapular wall slide this week. And finally did a behind the neck press with an oly bar pain free!!!

Tissue work should be compulsory for anyone who trains, because training causes scar tissue and adhesion buildup. Stretching is almost useless until the fascia has been loosened up by foam rolling/massage/tennis ball work etc

this is the order you should approach it

tissue work ( foam rolling, massage etc) --> mobility work --> stretching —> corrective exercises

It is hard work, takes effort, is tiring and time consuming, but if you desire to save money - ART is not cheap, and want to push yourself hard like a Formula 1 car, you need to put in the maintenance work too…high performance engines are highly strung and go bang real quick…[/quote]

No degree of effort is excessive in injury prevention. I’ve been plagued with a shoulder problem for a few years because I was careless once; the pain of not being able to lift far outweighs that of having to take preventative measures. (That problem is dormant now due to rotator cuff exercises) However, sounds like once I get the foam roller and start using it, I’ll see loads of benefits in my problem areas. If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you? I’m quite interested in the effect of oly/power lifts on joint and bone health in the long-term. Sounds like you’ve overcome a few complications yourself, so I’m hoping the answer might shed some light on this for me.

[quote]LBramble wrote:
are you sprinting, long distance walking and jumping on grass???

i was scheduled for torn meniscus surgery in both knees but i didn’t have the cash for the co-payment. So i had it rescheduled for 3 months later to save up, and was making plans for my recovery when i read an article that basically said

“hey idiot, we were evolved for walking and sprinting on grass, dirt, sand etc., not asphalt or concrete”.
Grass, dirt, and sand are all very forgiving surfaces, and easy on the joints. Because THATS WHAT our joints were Darwin selected for. Not asphalt,concrete, artifical turf etc.

Hell there are still plenty of people on earth in remote locations who’ve never worn shoes! And think nothing of it.

Of course you can say our “modern” shoes take all the punishment out of the modern surfaces. Thats just what Nike wants you to say.

So why are all the NFL teams going back to grass or new “just like grass” surfaces??? if our sports shoes are so good and protective for our joints.
We’ve only had massive pavement for the last 2 or 3 generations. Our genes will not adapt for quite some time.

During my 3 month wait for surgery i found a middle school grass football field and started doing light jogging, working up to sprints 3 times a week (i use to run distance and sprints at a university track).

The knees healed on their own because i took the source of the problem away.

That was 3 years ago. I don’t do any running on anything but grass. Squating is painfree now as well, and alot heavier that before the meniscus tears.

try it, your knees will thank you.
its simple how your body was designed.

LB [/quote]

This is great, and I love sprinting in nature; unfortunately, in a few weeks I’m going to move to a megapolis with very few opportunities to sprint, walk or jump on grass. In fact, everything is covered in ice and snow for a third of the year :slight_smile: I believe there’s a tiny park nearby which is fine for certain things, but I can’t do much there. However, there is a lesson to be learned here; at the very least, I’m going to do exercises on a carpet.

I wonder if there’s an alternative, perhaps in the form of some corrective or cushioning shoe, that could make up for working out on hard surfaces? That’d be my best option, but then, my present trainers offer excellent cushioning, and that hasn’t helped me much. Guess I just answered myself!

the foam roller helps for the lower body, but if you read the articles, the tennis ball is even better for the upper body and bottom of the foot :slight_smile:
Tennis ball against the wall is also awesome for the glutes and hips, TFL etc
All problems start from the foot, so start rolling out the foot arch with a tennis ball or golf ball, if the tennis ball isn’t doing much. I also use a hard 21x3 inch cardboard roll, since the foam roller eventually doesn’t do much when you get looser. A PVC pipe does the job too.

And I also use small Mini BBalls pumped up tight. I have one the size of a volleyball that works great on the VMO and adductor area. The small size works better there, foam rollers tend to get in the way. Applies enough pressure to bring tears to my eyes!

Anyway you will find trigger points all over your body. Once they go away, you will be so loose, it’s not funny! And feel stronger too! The moderate weights at one stage started to feel scary heavy on my back, on squats. I think the CNS was shutting down the muscles because everything was so tight, scar tissue filled and jammed up. Now it feels good.

My upper body got a whole lot stronger and more stable after I started the tissue work. No surprise, because ART does the same kind of thing, but better, and people regain and improve strength.

I’m approaching 40 now :smiley:

also foam rolling will work the crap out of your core and upper body support muscles like the serratus anterior :slight_smile:
I was so sore in spinal erectors and ribcage msucles at one stage I had to take pain killers to sleep…