Kids in MMA - Positive or Negative?

ZeusNathan · July 31, 2008, 5:42am

[quote]Sifu wrote:
ZeusNathan wrote:
i dont think mma for kids is anymore dangerous than pee wee football. they limit punches to below the collar bone and are always under supervision.

the “experts” like the very ugly and naive dan doyle will tell ya that it is child abuse, its despicable, etc etc

but yea, fuck him

Did you watch the video that went with that piece? Those kids were hitting to the head. One of the kids was using his face like a catchers mitt. Besides the cumulative trauma caused by hitting to the body takes a toll on internal organs.

Mixed martial arts is not everything it is hyped up to be. MMA is the flavor of the month and it has been quite popular, but there are much better fighting strategies that can be taught to kids. ie In karate we use a technique called “evasion”. Evasion is far superior to the MMA strategy of grin and bear it, of just standing there and letting a trained martial artist wail away on your body.

In professional fighting there is a factor known as “ring age”. Ring age is the accumulated damage from getting beat on in the ring. Putting kids into MMA is a good way for them to collect so much ring age that they will be having problems by the time they are in their twenties.

Mixed Martial arts should be something that is done to take a trained martial artists experience to another level. With kids it just isn’t neccessary to beat on them like that, when they don’t have a fully developed skill set. Striking or grappling arts are something that you can spend several years developing as individual arts before you really need to combine them and then start going all out.

Then there is the issue of needing to keep parents in check which is a huge problem in all martial arts. In MMA I can see that really getting out of hand.[/quote]

first, let me say that your view is exceptional in the fact that all parents must do what is right for their kids.
on the other hand, whats so bad about young kids in mma? the striking? slamming?
let me steal frank shamrock’s words and bring up football and wrestling. kids put on helmets and step on a field where they might get hit head on with a kid nearly twice his size… because we all know that puberty doesnt arrive at the same juncture. and let me add that in football, you are not taught how to fall properly, and even when you do, there is a risk of your foot getting caught in the grass and someone landing on your knee which would most likely tear up your acl and/or mcl your patella miniscus etc etc. these injuries live with you forever.

i am not downplaying football. injuries happen in every sport, even badminton.

what about kids in boxing? no one has ever said shit about it, and if they did, it never reached a level where politics got involved.

wrestling. these kids get slammed just the same, if not more than kids in mma.

anyways, to make this short my main point is that mma is a sport also. and if you practice it with proper training and supervision, your risk of injury is just as same as in any other sport.

and that ring age thing… alexander karelin started wrestling when he was about 10 years old, maybe younger. he was well into his 30’s dominating world class athletes. and those athletes as well have probably started very young. fedor started doing sambo and other grappling at a very young age also. look at him now. injury free, famous, healthy, and undisputed.

and if you think mma is just a flavor of the month, you need to do some more reading. or watch tv. or talk to someone.

ZeusNathan · July 31, 2008, 5:43am

kids should be allowed to practice mma at 5 years old. competition should be limited to kids 12 and up. with more strict rules of course. and then full contact at 18

Fiction · July 31, 2008, 2:05pm

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
first, let me say that your view is exceptional in the fact that all parents must do what is right for their kids.
on the other hand, whats so bad about young kids in mma? the striking? slamming?
let me steal frank shamrock’s words and bring up football and wrestling. kids put on helmets and step on a field where they might get hit head on with a kid nearly twice his size… because we all know that puberty doesnt arrive at the same juncture. and let me add that in football, you are not taught how to fall properly, and even when you do, there is a risk of your foot getting caught in the grass and someone landing on your knee which would most likely tear up your acl and/or mcl your patella miniscus etc etc. these injuries live with you forever.

i am not downplaying football. injuries happen in every sport, even badminton.

what about kids in boxing? no one has ever said shit about it, and if they did, it never reached a level where politics got involved.

wrestling. these kids get slammed just the same, if not more than kids in mma.

anyways, to make this short my main point is that mma is a sport also. and if you practice it with proper training and supervision, your risk of injury is just as same as in any other sport.

and that ring age thing… alexander karelin started wrestling when he was about 10 years old, maybe younger. he was well into his 30’s dominating world class athletes. and those athletes as well have probably started very young. fedor started doing sambo and other grappling at a very young age also. look at him now. injury free, famous, healthy, and undisputed.

and if you think mma is just a flavor of the month, you need to do some more reading. or watch tv. or talk to someone.

[/quote]

Football is a fucking retarded sport. The injuries in that sport are absurd. I don’t think I will let my kid do football. My HS wrestling coach used to ask his better wrestlers not to play football because of the number that get injured in the fall right before wrestling season.

Wrestling does not have many injuries and there are no slams allowed at the high school level.

nothingclever · August 2, 2008, 10:59pm

I want my kids getting slammed, raped, beheaded and mutilated beyond recognition.

Who the fuck wants kids around?

Sifu · August 3, 2008, 3:30am

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
Sifu wrote:
ZeusNathan wrote:
i dont think mma for kids is anymore dangerous than pee wee football. they limit punches to below the collar bone and are always under supervision.

the “experts” like the very ugly and naive dan doyle will tell ya that it is child abuse, its despicable, etc etc

but yea, fuck him

Did you watch the video that went with that piece? Those kids were hitting to the head. One of the kids was using his face like a catchers mitt. Besides the cumulative trauma caused by hitting to the body takes a toll on internal organs.

Mixed martial arts is not everything it is hyped up to be. MMA is the flavor of the month and it has been quite popular, but there are much better fighting strategies that can be taught to kids. ie In karate we use a technique called “evasion”. Evasion is far superior to the MMA strategy of grin and bear it, of just standing there and letting a trained martial artist wail away on your body.

In professional fighting there is a factor known as “ring age”. Ring age is the accumulated damage from getting beat on in the ring. Putting kids into MMA is a good way for them to collect so much ring age that they will be having problems by the time they are in their twenties.

Mixed Martial arts should be something that is done to take a trained martial artists experience to another level. With kids it just isn’t neccessary to beat on them like that, when they don’t have a fully developed skill set. Striking or grappling arts are something that you can spend several years developing as individual arts before you really need to combine them and then start going all out.

Then there is the issue of needing to keep parents in check which is a huge problem in all martial arts. In MMA I can see that really getting out of hand.

first, let me say that your view is exceptional in the fact that all parents must do what is right for their kids.
on the other hand, whats so bad about young kids in mma? the striking? slamming?
let me steal frank shamrock’s words and bring up football and wrestling. kids put on helmets and step on a field where they might get hit head on with a kid nearly twice his size… because we all know that puberty doesnt arrive at the same juncture. and let me add that in football, you are not taught how to fall properly, and even when you do, there is a risk of your foot getting caught in the grass and someone landing on your knee which would most likely tear up your acl and/or mcl your patella miniscus etc etc. these injuries live with you forever. [/quote]

That is a ridiculous rationalisation. Just because kids can get crippled with football doesn’t make it okay to cripple them with martial arts. I know a lot of grown men who are limping around on limbs they damaged years or even decades ago in high school football. Besides the amount of time in a football game that is spent actually getting hit is a fraction of the time.

Have you ever seen Frank Shamrock fight? The guy is a meathead who doesn’t give a fuck about getting hit. I wouldn’t want him teaching one of my kids.

Let me add that just because you have been taught how to something properly it doesn’t mean you are actually going to do it when it counts the most in a fight. In fighting you can make one mistake and be seriously damaged. I know people who have been seriously injured doing demos, where the idea was not to hurt someone.

This is why it is bad to have kids fighting full contact, because one mistake can leave them damaged for life at a time when they really don’t need to be doing it. It’s huge risks for no payoff.

The striking can do damage. Beating on heavy bags can do damage to growing bones. In children the ends of their bones have a structure called the growth plate, damage that growth plate and you damage their growth. Dumps can do serious damage. You can cripple or kill someone with a dump.

[quote]

i am not downplaying football. injuries happen in every sport, even badminton. [/quote]

But you are seriously down playing martial arts by comparing them to sports. Martial arts is not a sport. Martial means military. These military arts are meant to kill. We may tone them down so we can make a sport out of them, but these arts originally were meant to kill. They were not developed to be sports. They were not meant to be sports. They were meant for the deadly serious business of killing. Too many lay people are not respecting what these arts are or what they are capable of.

[quote]

what about kids in boxing? no one has ever said shit about it, and if they did, it never reached a level where politics got involved. [/quote]

It really depends on who is doing the teaching. In general boxers are not taught to just stand there and take a beating. But even with boxing you have to be careful with what the kids are getting into and how soon. Boxing is a narrowly focused art with boxing there are a lot less variables that have to be learned and watched out for.

[quote]

wrestling. these kids get slammed just the same, if not more than kids in mma. [/quote]

No they don’t. In restling you don’t get slammed on your head then receive a flurry of follow up blows. Nor do you recieve blows to the head then dumped. Wrestling doesn’t involve a lot of joint locking which can damage developing joints.

The only reason why a person would be able to tapout of a joint lock is because you are being nice. If you apply a joint lock right you are going to destroy the joint before your opponent even has a chance to tap.

One last thing about Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu. These are individual arts. As such one could easily spend several years learning the techniques, theory, principles and training in them before they get good. Traditionally in the Orient it was expected that one would spend at least five years studying Karate to earn a black belt.

If a child is not good at both the ground fighting and the stand up they really don’t need to be spending a lot of time doing MMA. [quote]

anyways, to make this short my main point is that mma is a sport also. and if you practice it with proper training and supervision, your risk of injury is just as same as in any other sport. [/quote]

Martial arts is not a sport. MMA is a sport which is derived from maiming and killing arts. As such it needs to be handled with care.

[quote]

and that ring age thing… alexander karelin started wrestling when he was about 10 years old, maybe younger. he was well into his 30’s dominating world class athletes. and those athletes as well have probably started very young. fedor started doing sambo and other grappling at a very young age also. look at him now. injury free, famous, healthy, and undisputed. [/quote]

Have you watched Karelin fight? He might be a great wrestler but he is pathetic if he can’t get ahold of you. He eats shots like they are candy. Besides he hasn’t been eating shots in MMA since he was ten.

Yes Fedor did Sambo at a young age. It is a physical grappling art, but he wasn’t taking a pounding like he has in Pride. Most importantly the man is what we call talented. You can’t teach talent. A good teacher can help develop talent but they can’t teach it. That is why Fedor is undisputed and rich. So get real. It is not every kid who has a dream who is going to be a Fedor.

There is a hell of a lot of competition and very little room at the top. A kid is going to have more chances of winning American Idol than becoming a world champion fighter.

How do you know Fedor doesn’t have injuries? Have you seen all the people he has fought? Of course he has injuries. To do full contact martial arts you have to learn to live with pain. The thing I found works best is denial I tell myself “it didn’t hurt me” even when it does. All those fighters have injuries, pain and scars.

And how long have you been studying martial arts? Have you been studying long enough to remember the Ninja craze of the Eighties? I can remember how a lot of lay idiots were going around saying “Those Ninjas are something else”. “Do you do Ninjitsu”?

I have grown to enjoy watching MMA matches but I don’t believe everything I read in the press or see on tv. Dana White is not the worlds foremost martial arts expert but he is a good salesman. Don’t believe the hype. Yes his fighters are tough and a few of them have good skills, but it isn’t the pinnacle of martial arts, any more than crappy Xience is the pinnacle of supplements. So get real.

Vash · August 3, 2008, 2:48pm

[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Sifu wrote: Headgear doesn’t do a damn thing to protect your brain.

This is absolute nonsense. This issue has been studied extensively. Just do some basic searching and you’ll realize that, as usual, your “TMA logic” leads you to false conclusions.[/quote]

Um . . . what? It has indeed been studied extensively. Primary effects of “headgear,” helmets, etc, are thus:

Reduction in risk of cuts and abrasions
Reduction in risk of skeletal damage vis a vi, facial, cranial, and mandibular bones
Reduction in risk of cosmetic damage to cartilaginous structures of the face and head (nose, ears)

. . .

Yeah. I can tell that helps with direct and indirect trauma which can result in rapid acceleration/deceleration of the skull which is the primary cause of brain injury in contact activities.

We, the ignorant masses, thank you ten fold for your contributions not only to bodybuilding, but sport, martial art, general skill acquisition, and the ability to make love to a beautiful woman.

Sifu · August 3, 2008, 5:49pm

Headgear is not some kind of magic panacea. I’ve knocked people out with head gear on. I know plenty enough people who can blow through headgear like it isn’t even there. It doesn’t do much. I’ve even seen people knocked out with bogu gear on. It certainly doesn’t make it safe to take repeated shots to the head.

The brain is like jello and it is free floating inside the skull. The way a knockout occurs is the skull accelerates so fast that the brain cannot move in unison with it and the skull crashes into the brain.

This why slipping a punch by pulling the head back just before you are hit can prevent getting knocked out. Because it gets the skull and brain moving in unison so there is less of a difference in acceleration between the two when the blow lands.

Head gear limits perifferal vision which makes it difficult to see blows that are coming in from the side like hook punches. These are the blows which cause rotational acceleration which is the most damaging to the brain.

Lets also not forget that headgear is being suggested as something that can make it perfectly safe for a child to spend years being repeatedly beat around the head.

Another thing that many martial artists don’t appreciate either is the body is not something you can just beat on. I know people who have permanent internal organ damage from getting hit in the body.

Another thing that people need to be realistic about is this. There are millions of people practicing martial arts. Only a handful of them are ever going to make a career out of it. The UFC has five weight classes, which means five champions and five get to be the top contenders. The combined top ten of each class is fifty people.

All it takes is ONE injury, not two, not three, but ONE and a fighters career can be over. A career as a champion fighter is just not going to be in the cards for most people.

Another thing that needs to be understood is this. MMA is sport martial arts. It is not the same as self defense martial arts. The whole idea of sport is you are giving the other guy a sporting chance to beat you. In self defense you don’t care about being a good sport you only care about defending yourself. In self defense you don’t rely upon the other guy being a good sport either. In MMA there is a lot of reliance upon the other guy being a good sport.

Hold_Up · August 4, 2008, 12:29pm

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ZeusNathan · August 5, 2008, 7:51pm

[quote]
That is a ridiculous rationalisation. Just because kids can get crippled with football doesn’t make it okay to cripple them with martial arts. I know a lot of grown men who are limping around on limbs they damaged years or even decades ago in high school football. Besides the amount of time in a football game that is spent actually getting hit is a fraction of the time. [/quote]

there’s golfers with bad hips
wrestlers with bad backs
bowlers with carpal
weightlifters with hernias
moms with bad backs
injuries happen

[quote]
Have you ever seen Frank Shamrock fight? The guy is a meathead who doesn’t give a fuck about getting hit. I wouldn’t want him teaching one of my kids. [/quote]

name one champion or elite fighter who cares about getting hit.
but i digress. frank is a legend, a pioneer, and an innovator. he is one of the very first icons of this new sport called mma.
if you want anyone teaching your kids, it would be frank shamrock.

[quote]
Let me add that just because you have been taught how to something properly it doesn’t mean you are actually going to do it when it counts the most in a fight. In fighting you can make one mistake and be seriously damaged. I know people who have been seriously injured doing demos, where the idea was not to hurt someone. [/quote]

and thats not your responsibility. if you really care about children’s well being, sell all your belongings and sponser hundreds of the starving kids in africa and around the world. in the words of ron paul, stop policing the world.

[quote]
This is why it is bad to have kids fighting full contact, because one mistake can leave them damaged for life at a time when they really don’t need to be doing it. It’s huge risks for no payoff. [/quote]

again, injuries can happen, in ANY sport. refer back to the first paragraph.
and no payoff? oscar de le hoya has been boxing since he was 9, in the ring. he started practicing even before that. right now he owns a lucrative promotional company, an outstanding and accomplished boxer, a recording artist, etc etc.

[quote]
The striking can do damage. Beating on heavy bags can do damage to growing bones. In children the ends of their bones have a structure called the growth plate, damage that growth plate and you damage their growth. Dumps can do serious damage. You can cripple or kill someone with a dump. [/quote]

i have tons of friends who’ve boxed and wrestled since 5 - 8 and most of them grew above 5’10. where the hell do you get this shit??!? what about kyokushin. limb and bone strengthening. repeatedly kneeing, punching, elbowing, and headbutting rocks and wood.

martial arts is not meant for killing you damn fool. guns and samurai swords are meant for killing, hence have u ever heard of gunfoo??? didnt think so. tae kwon do. developed as a defensive protocol against the communists. aikido, similar entity. kung fu, buddhists needed to learn how to defend. kyokushin, same.
you dont even know about the art that you practice.

[quote]
what about kids in boxing? no one has ever said shit about it, and if they did, it never reached a level where politics got involved. -ZN

It really depends on who is doing the teaching. In general boxers are not taught to just stand there and take a beating. But even with boxing you have to be careful with what the kids are getting into and how soon. Boxing is a narrowly focused art with boxing there are a lot less variables that have to be learned and watched out for. [/quote]

so you’re for boxing but not mma… and supposedly only boxing teaches you how to avoid getting hit… lol

[quote]
wrestling. these kids get slammed just the same, if not more than kids in mma.

No they don’t. In restling you don’t get slammed on your head then receive a flurry of follow up blows. Nor do you recieve blows to the head then dumped. Wrestling doesn’t involve a lot of joint locking which can damage developing joints. [/quote]

and you would say that because you have no wrestling experience. and if u do, i guarantee you were a sorry ass wrestler.

-power half nelson
-cross face cradle
-bow and arrow
-switch from bottom
-sweep single
-arm bar (not the same as mma)
-gable bar

just a short list of moves one can use to pin, takedown, or inflict pain or even injure your opponent. i cracked a kids ribs his first day of practice while doing a crossface cradle, bring his head to the knee… you wrestlers will know what i mean.

[quote]
The only reason why a person would be able to tapout of a joint lock is because you are being nice. If you apply a joint lock right you are going to destroy the joint before your opponent even has a chance to tap. [/quote]

wow

[quote]
One last thing about Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu. These are individual arts. As such one could easily spend several years learning the techniques, theory, principles and training in them before they get good. Traditionally in the Orient it was expected that one would spend at least five years studying Karate to earn a black belt.

If a child is not good at both the ground fighting and the stand up they really don’t need to be spending a lot of time doing MMA. [/quote]

and that kid should just find something he’s good at in under 2 days. got it. oh and YOU ARE TOTALLY CONTRADICTING YOURSELF.

[quote]
and that ring age thing… alexander karelin started wrestling when he was about 10 years old, maybe younger. he was well into his 30’s dominating world class athletes. and those athletes as well have probably started very young. fedor started doing sambo and other grappling at a very young age also. look at him now. injury free, famous, healthy, and undisputed. -ZN

Have you watched Karelin fight? He might be a great wrestler but he is pathetic if he can’t get ahold of you. He eats shots like they are candy. Besides he hasn’t been eating shots in MMA since he was ten. [/quote]

alexander karelin has never fought an mma bout, nor has he done any type of competition including striking. your credibility has jus fallin off the map.

nope, they didnt start sambo until their teens. they started off with judo and naturally progressed from there. and no, fedor never really took a pounding from anyone besides, nog, cro cop, and fujita. everyone else he jus ran through like a fuckin mack truck.

im starting to regret even trying to refute your statements. its so bad.

[quote]
There is a hell of a lot of competition and very little room at the top. A kid is going to have more chances of winning American Idol than becoming a world champion fighter. [/quote]

SO PARENTS… SEND YOUR KIDS TO SINGING SCHOOL INSTEAD OF A GYM!!!

[quote]
How do you know Fedor doesn’t have injuries? Have you seen all the people he has fought? Of course he has injuries. To do full contact martial arts you have to learn to live with pain. The thing I found works best is denial I tell myself “it didn’t hurt me” even when it does. All those fighters have injuries, pain and scars. [/quote]

fedor has never had a serious injury up until he fought tim sylvia and fractured a bone in his hand. but seriously, how can you bitch about scars and pain when you do kyokushin. that martial art is the epitome of pain and scars.

[quote]
And how long have you been studying martial arts? Have you been studying long enough to remember the Ninja craze of the Eighties? I can remember how a lot of lay idiots were going around saying “Those Ninjas are something else”. “Do you do Ninjitsu”? [/quote]

i practiced kawasakism, hondaism, the art of eating, tae kwon do, street fighting, bullying, and etc since i was like 8 and shit. im so not awesome.

[quote]
I have grown to enjoy watching MMA matches but I don’t believe everything I read in the press or see on tv. Dana White is not the worlds foremost martial arts expert but he is a good salesman. Don’t believe the hype. Yes his fighters are tough and a few of them have good skills, but it isn’t the pinnacle of martial arts, any more than crappy Xience is the pinnacle of supplements. So get real. [/quote]

XIENCE DOESNT EVEN SPONSER UFC ANYMORE DIPSHIT

AND WTF, I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE KIDS… WHAT ABOUT THE KIDSSS!!!

Zap_Branigan · August 5, 2008, 4:48pm

Martial arts are certainly for killing and crippling. Kind of the idea of war.

Sifu · August 6, 2008, 3:27am

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:

That is a ridiculous rationalisation. Just because kids can get crippled with football doesn’t make it okay to cripple them with martial arts. I know a lot of grown men who are limping around on limbs they damaged years or even decades ago in high school football. Besides the amount of time in a football game that is spent actually getting hit is a fraction of the time.

there’s golfers with bad hips
wrestlers with bad backs
bowlers with carpal
weightlifters with hernias
moms with bad backs
injuries happen [/quote]

Again with the ridiculous rationalisations. With the possible exception of wrestling none of those activities you listed involves getting in a ring with someone who is intentionally trying to hurt you. [quote]

Have you ever seen Frank Shamrock fight? The guy is a meathead who doesn’t give a fuck about getting hit. I wouldn’t want him teaching one of my kids.

name one champion or elite fighter who cares about getting hit.
but i digress. frank is a legend, a pioneer, and an innovator. he is one of the very first icons of this new sport called mma.
if you want anyone teaching your kids, it would be frank shamrock. [/quote]

Lyoto Machida. Frank did well in MMA, but I would not teach a kid to fight the way he fights, he eats up too much abuse.

Children are not elite fighters. If you train them to fight like most of the elite fighters do, by the time they become adults they will be so damaged they won’t make it as elite fighters. [quote]

Let me add that just because you have been taught how to something properly it doesn’t mean you are actually going to do it when it counts the most in a fight. In fighting you can make one mistake and be seriously damaged. I know people who have been seriously injured doing demos, where the idea was not to hurt someone.

and thats not your responsibility. if you really care about children’s well being, sell all your belongings and sponser hundreds of the starving kids in africa and around the world. in the words of ron paul, stop policing the world. [/quote]

A teacher is responsible for what happens in their school and parents are responsible for their kids.

Full contact fighting is very unforgiving, I know quite a few people who made one little slip up and ended up in a hospital. My Osteopath has made more money off of my studying karate than my teacher.

[quote]
This is why it is bad to have kids fighting full contact, because one mistake can leave them damaged for life at a time when they really don’t need to be doing it. It’s huge risks for no payoff.

again, injuries can happen, in ANY sport. refer back to the first paragraph. [/quote]

There is a huge difference in the kinds of injuries that can happen in sports and fighting. Usually in sports the injuries are the result of unintentional accidents. In fighting most of the injuries are the intentional result of beating the hell out of someone. Then there are the accidents. There is no comparison.

[quote]
and no payoff? oscar de le hoya has been boxing since he was 9, in the ring. he started practicing even before that. right now he owns a lucrative promotional company, an outstanding and accomplished boxer, a recording artist, etc etc. [/quote]

The payoff I was refferring to was producing a better fighter. I wasn’t even refferring to the money which is only there for a very select few.

Oscar De La Hoya’ grandfather and father were boxers. His career was very carefully and intelligently handled. ODLH professional career started out as a super featherweight, then moved up to lightweight, then light welterweight, then welterweight, then super welterweight, then light middleweight, then middleweight. Every time he moved up a weight class and took the title in that class he gained experience.

His handlers didn’t just throw him to the wolves and get him tore up. They very carefully managed his career so he would not get uneccessarily injured. His whole career has been handled with intelligence and discipline. That is why he is where he is at today.

[quote]
The striking can do damage. Beating on heavy bags can do damage to growing bones. In children the ends of their bones have a structure called the growth plate, damage that growth plate and you damage their growth. Dumps can do serious damage. You can cripple or kill someone with a dump.

i have tons of friends who’ve boxed and wrestled since 5 - 8 and most of them grew above 5’10. where the hell do you get this shit??!? what about kyokushin. limb and bone strengthening. repeatedly kneeing, punching, elbowing, and headbutting rocks and wood. [/quote]

How tall you grow is dictated by genetics. The growth plate on the end of the bone is pratically a soft tissue it is not hardened bone and it usually forms part of a joint. It is not something you want to damage.

That bone hardening and nerve deadening is not healthy and it has to be done very carefully. I really would not recommend it for kids and it really isn’t needed for adults.

[quote]
i am not downplaying football. injuries happen in every sport, even badminton. -ZN

But you are seriously down playing martial arts by comparing them to sports. Martial arts is not a sport. Martial means military. These military arts are meant to kill. We may tone them down so we can make a sport out of them, but these arts originally were meant to kill. They were not developed to be sports. They were not meant to be sports. They were meant for the deadly serious business of killing. Too many lay people are not respecting what these arts are or what they are capable of.

martial arts is not meant for killing you damn fool. guns and samurai swords are meant for killing, hence have u ever heard of gunfoo??? didnt think so. tae kwon do. developed as a defensive protocol against the communists. aikido, similar entity. kung fu, buddhists needed to learn how to defend. kyokushin, same.
you dont even know about the art that you practice. [/quote]

You are one clueless idiot. The Okinawans who developed Karate did not own guns and they were not allowed to own knives. They developed Karate as a form of self defense. Karate is not a game and the Okinawans were not playing around. Karate is what they used to go to war.

[quote]
what about kids in boxing? no one has ever said shit about it, and if they did, it never reached a level where politics got involved. -ZN

It really depends on who is doing the teaching. In general boxers are not taught to just stand there and take a beating. But even with boxing you have to be careful with what the kids are getting into and how soon. Boxing is a narrowly focused art with boxing there are a lot less variables that have to be learned and watched out for.

so you’re for boxing but not mma… and supposedly only boxing teaches you how to avoid getting hit… lol [/quote]

I didn’t say only boxing teaches evasion. In MMA evasion is highly unusual. Most MMA fighters will just stand there like an idiot and get hit. A lot of the fighters are wrestlers who learned a little about stand up fighting so they can stay in a fight long enough to drag the other guy to the ground. That is why they take so much abuse in the stand up.

[quote]
wrestling. these kids get slammed just the same, if not more than kids in mma.

No they don’t. In restling you don’t get slammed on your head then receive a flurry of follow up blows. Nor do you recieve blows to the head then dumped. Wrestling doesn’t involve a lot of joint locking which can damage developing joints.

and you would say that because you have no wrestling experience. and if u do, i guarantee you were a sorry ass wrestler.

-power half nelson
-cross face cradle
-bow and arrow
-switch from bottom
-sweep single
-arm bar (not the same as mma)
-gable bar [/quote]

just a short list of moves one can use to pin, takedown, or inflict pain or even injure your opponent. i cracked a kids ribs his first day of practice while doing a crossface cradle, bring his head to the knee… you wrestlers will know what i mean. [/quote]

Generally they are not the same kinds of locks, wrestling is a sport where you are not trying to cripple the other guy. Besides in MMA a lot of very useful joint locks are banned because it would be too easy to injure someone with them.

[quote]
The only reason why a person would be able to tapout of a joint lock is because you are being nice. If you apply a joint lock right you are going to destroy the joint before your opponent even has a chance to tap.

wow

One last thing about Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu. These are individual arts. As such one could easily spend several years learning the techniques, theory, principles and training in them before they get good. Traditionally in the Orient it was expected that one would spend at least five years studying Karate to earn a black belt.

If a child is not good at both the ground fighting and the stand up they really don’t need to be spending a lot of time doing MMA.

and that kid should just find something he’s good at in under 2 days. got it. oh and YOU ARE TOTALLY CONTRADICTING YOURSELF. [/quote]

Why don’t you reread what I wrote moron. If a kid isn’t skilled at both stand up and ground fighting there is little point in getting them injured by rushing them into fighting full contact.

For all the stupid shit you have come up with you still have not made a rational case as to why kids need to be rushed into full contact. Full contact fighting is damaging even crippling. There is no benefit to getting a fighter injured before they are matured.

[quote]
and that ring age thing… alexander karelin started wrestling when he was about 10 years old, maybe younger. he was well into his 30’s dominating world class athletes. and those athletes as well have probably started very young. fedor started doing sambo and other grappling at a very young age also. look at him now. injury free, famous, healthy, and undisputed. -ZN

Have you watched Karelin fight? He might be a great wrestler but he is pathetic if he can’t get ahold of you. He eats shots like they are candy. Besides he hasn’t been eating shots in MMA since he was ten.

alexander karelin has never fought an mma bout, nor has he done any type of competition including striking. your credibility has jus fallin off the map. [/quote]

If he has never fought in MMA why did you offer him up as an example of someone in MMA? I would say if anyone is contradicting themselves it is you.

I based my comments on his performance in MMA on these videos of him fighting. I say you are the one who has shot through their credibility.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1009078311483133148&ei=vd2YSMvwE4jkrQL89IXrDA&q=alexander+karelin&vt=lf&hl=en

[quote]
Yes Fedor did Sambo at a young age. It is a physical grappling art, but he wasn’t taking a pounding like he has in Pride. Most importantly the man is what we call talented. You can’t teach talent. A good teacher can help develop talent but they can’t teach it. That is why Fedor is undisputed and rich. So get real. It is not every kid who has a dream who is going to be a Fedor.

nope, they didnt start sambo until their teens. they started off with judo and naturally progressed from there. and no, fedor never really took a pounding from anyone besides, nog, cro cop, and fujita. everyone else he jus ran through like a fuckin mack truck.

im starting to regret even trying to refute your statements. its so bad. [/quote]

Fedor is one of my favorite fighters but I am not a fanboy. Besides you are the one who stated that Fedor started Sambo at a very young age. Dumbass.

Just because he has been winning it doesn’t mean he hasn’t taken his shots. He’s avoided taking a really bad beating because of his skills and he has been winning. But he still gets beat on.

[quote]
There is a hell of a lot of competition and very little room at the top. A kid is going to have more chances of winning American Idol than becoming a world champion fighter.

SO PARENTS… SEND YOUR KIDS TO SINGING SCHOOL INSTEAD OF A GYM!!! [/quote]

That wasn’t my point. But most kids would be better served with music lessons.

[quote]
How do you know Fedor doesn’t have injuries? Have you seen all the people he has fought? Of course he has injuries. To do full contact martial arts you have to learn to live with pain. The thing I found works best is denial I tell myself “it didn’t hurt me” even when it does. All those fighters have injuries, pain and scars.

fedor has never had a serious injury up until he fought tim sylvia and fractured a bone in his hand. but seriously, how can you bitch about scars and pain when you do kyokushin. that martial art is the epitome of pain and scars. [/quote]

That’s probably why I don’t do Kyokushin. I practice Isshinryu. Admittedly there is not much difference in the pain department and I do have scars. When I was twenty three my Osteopath was looking at some of my x-rays and said I look very old for my age.

All the injuries I got when I was young is how I know what I am talking about. I’m just glad I wasn’t a black belt back when my teacher was practicing knife fighting with real knives.

And how long have you been studying martial arts? Have you been studying long enough to remember the Ninja craze of the Eighties? I can remember how a lot of lay idiots were going around saying “Those Ninjas are something else”. “Do you do Ninjitsu”?

i practiced kawasakism, hondaism, the art of eating, tae kwon do, street fighting, bullying, and etc since i was like 8 and shit. im so not awesome.

I have grown to enjoy watching MMA matches but I don’t believe everything I read in the press or see on tv. Dana White is not the worlds foremost martial arts expert but he is a good salesman. Don’t believe the hype. Yes his fighters are tough and a few of them have good skills, but it isn’t the pinnacle of martial arts, any more than crappy Xience is the pinnacle of supplements. So get real.

XIENCE DOESNT EVEN SPONSER UFC ANYMORE DIPSHIT

AND WTF, I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE KIDS… WHAT ABOUT THE KIDSSS!!!

My point was there is a lot of salesmanship going on with the UFC and a lot of people who don’t know much are buying into it.

blazindave · August 5, 2008, 11:36pm

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:

martial arts is not meant for killing you damn fool. guns and samurai swords are meant for killing, hence have u ever heard of gunfoo??? didnt think so. tae kwon do. developed as a defensive protocol against the communists. aikido, similar entity. kung fu, buddhists needed to learn how to defend. kyokushin, same.
you dont even know about the art that you practice.

[/quote]

Yes but defensive in the sense that you could kill or maim your opponent.
I doubt that shaolin kung fu was “invented” to block punches and kicks.
All martial arts have a history in violence. A martial art that does not evolve due to violence is not a true martial art. Ir’s a sport. Can you argue that archery is not a form of combat? Today it’s used only to hunt and play games (who has better aim, etc) but the purpose of it was to kill.
Now a days there is no need for it because of guns and such.
However the original point of a fighting system was to kill.
Martial arts WERE made for killing.

ZeusNathan · August 6, 2008, 5:48am

[quote]Sifu wrote:

Again with the ridiculous rationalisations. With the possible exception of wrestling none of those activities you listed involves getting in a ring with someone who is intentionally trying to hurt you. [/quote]

whens the last time u heard of an mma fighter suffer from a serious injury… anyone ever permanently injured? nah
you fail again

you see more injuries in soccer football and even baseball

i already know the one fight that you saw frank in. frank vs bas rutten. and that is the only time he let himself get pummeled. and it was bas rutten he was fighting. and please give me the source where machida claims that he minds getting hit.

[quote]

A teacher is responsible for what happens in their school and parents are responsible for their kids.

Full contact fighting is very unforgiving, I know quite a few people who made one little slip up and ended up in a hospital. My Osteopath has made more money off of my studying karate than my teacher.[/quote]

naw really, i thought full contact didnt feel like anything

The payoff I was refferring to was producing a better fighter. I wasn’t even refferring to the money which is only there for a very select few.

Oscar De La Hoya’ grandfather and father were boxers. His career was very carefully and intelligently handled. ODLH professional career started out as a super featherweight, then moved up to lightweight, then light welterweight, then welterweight, then super welterweight, then light middleweight, then middleweight. Every time he moved up a weight class and took the title in that class he gained experience.

His handlers didn’t just throw him to the wolves and get him tore up. They very carefully managed his career so he would not get uneccessarily injured. His whole career has been handled with intelligence and discipline. That is why he is where he is at today.

it REALLY bothers me when you try to make shit up. de la hoya was indeed fed to the wolves. his dad made him train for over 5 hours a day, everyday after school. oscar wasnt allowed to play basketball. he was put up against much older and heavier kids.
his LIFE was boxing.

again you blatantly contradict yourself. you practice it, but you claim you dont need it. you say it stunts your growth, but now its dictated by genetics. which one is it?

re read what i wrote, and then what you wrote. you are just repeating my words. SELF DEFENSE.

that is why wrestlers are the most successful fighters in virtually every mma org. you just keep digging that hole guy.

[quote]
wrestling. these kids get slammed just the same, if not more than kids in mma.

No they don’t. In restling you don’t get slammed on your head then receive a flurry of follow up blows. Nor do you recieve blows to the head then dumped. Wrestling doesn’t involve a lot of joint locking which can damage developing joints.

and you would say that because you have no wrestling experience. and if u do, i guarantee you were a sorry ass wrestler.

-power half nelson
-cross face cradle
-bow and arrow
-switch from bottom
-sweep single
-arm bar (not the same as mma)
-gable bar

just a short list of moves one can use to pin, takedown, or inflict pain or even injure your opponent. i cracked a kids ribs his first day of practice while doing a crossface cradle, bring his head to the knee… you wrestlers will know what i mean.

Generally they are not the same kinds of locks, wrestling is a sport where you are not trying to cripple the other guy. Besides in MMA a lot of very useful joint locks are banned because it would be too easy to injure someone with them.[/quote]

and you say this with no grappling experience, nor are you familiar with any of the moves ive mentioned.

a power half is when you are on top and place your forearm or elbow on the opponents neck. from there you proceed to hook the other arm and crank it so that the arm on one side, is forced to the other ear.

bow and arrow. your head digs into the opponents ribs and spine as you forcefully try to converge his neck to the knee.

a switch. from bottom position you hip heist out locking the opponents arm, much like a kimura without a grip, and lean into the joint causing the elbow to hyperextend and bringing the guys hips and shoulders down.

please quote where i say that kids should jump right into full contact sparring. you do that for me, and ill hand you a brownie.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

jesus man, you suck really bad.

those are pro wrestling matches… meaning that they, are… fixed.

WOW…

just WOW

so you like fedor but you downplay kids who start training in ways that he has.

im sorry man, you fail, real bad.

[quote]
There is a hell of a lot of competition and very little room at the top. A kid is going to have more chances of winning American Idol than becoming a world champion fighter.

SO PARENTS… SEND YOUR KIDS TO SINGING SCHOOL INSTEAD OF A GYM!!!

That wasn’t my point. But most kids would be better served with music lessons. [/quote]

(speechless)

And how long have you been studying martial arts? Have you been studying long enough to remember the Ninja craze of the Eighties? I can remember how a lot of lay idiots were going around saying “Those Ninjas are something else”. “Do you do Ninjitsu”?

i practiced kawasakism, hondaism, the art of eating, tae kwon do, street fighting, bullying, and etc since i was like 8 and shit. im so not awesome.

I have grown to enjoy watching MMA matches but I don’t believe everything I read in the press or see on tv. Dana White is not the worlds foremost martial arts expert but he is a good salesman. Don’t believe the hype. Yes his fighters are tough and a few of them have good skills, but it isn’t the pinnacle of martial arts, any more than crappy Xience is the pinnacle of supplements. So get real.

XIENCE DOESNT EVEN SPONSER UFC ANYMORE DIPSHIT

AND WTF, I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE KIDS… WHAT ABOUT THE KIDSSS!!!

My point was there is a lot of salesmanship going on with the UFC and a lot of people who don’t know much are buying into it. [/quote]

so you like fedor, but you hate mma…

lets stop this dude. it was funny at first but you just cant win. i feel embarrassed for you actually.

Zap_Branigan · August 6, 2008, 8:09am

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
Sifu wrote:

Again with the ridiculous rationalisations. With the possible exception of wrestling none of those activities you listed involves getting in a ring with someone who is intentionally trying to hurt you.

whens the last time u heard of an mma fighter suffer from a serious injury… anyone ever permanently injured? nah
you fail again

you see more injuries in soccer football and even baseball

…

[/quote]

Almost every kid in my neighborhood plays or has played soccer and baseball. None of them do MMA.

Sifu · August 6, 2008, 7:40pm

[quote]ZeusNathan wrote:
Sifu wrote:

Again with the ridiculous rationalisations. With the possible exception of wrestling none of those activities you listed involves getting in a ring with someone who is intentionally trying to hurt you.

whens the last time u heard of an mma fighter suffer from a serious injury… anyone ever permanently injured? nah
you fail again

you see more injuries in soccer football and even baseball
[/quote]

How old are you, punk?

I’ve probably been studying martial arts longer than you have been alive. I don’t need to tune into UFC or mmafanboy.com to know the kinds of injuries that occur in martial arts.

[quote]

Lyoto Machida. Frank did well in MMA, but I would not teach a kid to fight the way he fights, he eats up too much abuse.

i already know the one fight that you saw frank in. frank vs bas rutten. and that is the only time he let himself get pummeled. and it was bas rutten he was fighting. and please give me the source where machida claims that he minds getting hit. [/quote]

I have seen a few of Franks fights. He doesn’t move well.

Watch Machida’s fight with Tito Ortiz sometime. Dana White was the one who commented that Machida is so unusual with his fighting style because he doesn’t stand there and get hit.

Evasion is a very important part of martial arts, yet most socalled mixed martial artists don’t do it. It might impress lay idiots like you to see two guys go toe to toe and just wail away at each other, but it’s not an intelligent way to fight and it’s something that will get you killed out on the street.

Probably because your only experience with it is watching it on TV.

[quote]

The payoff I was refferring to was producing a better fighter. I wasn’t even refferring to the money which is only there for a very select few.

Oscar De La Hoya’ grandfather and father were boxers. His career was very carefully and intelligently handled. ODLH professional career started out as a super featherweight, then moved up to lightweight, then light welterweight, then welterweight, then super welterweight, then light middleweight, then middleweight. Every time he moved up a weight class and took the title in that class he gained experience.

His handlers didn’t just throw him to the wolves and get him tore up. They very carefully managed his career so he would not get uneccessarily injured. His whole career has been handled with intelligence and discipline. That is why he is where he is at today.

it REALLY bothers me when you try to make shit up. de la hoya was indeed fed to the wolves. his dad made him train for over 5 hours a day, everyday after school. oscar wasnt allowed to play basketball. he was put up against much older and heavier kids.
his LIFE was boxing. [/quote]

Training five hours a day isn’t getting thrown to the wolves. Look at his professional career he started out as a super featherweight and worked his way up to middleweight.

No I am not contradicting myself. Lay off the drugs dumbass and maybe you will be able to follow a sentence. I don’t do that shit to myself it’s not neccessary and it’s unhealthy.

[quote]

martial arts is not meant for killing you damn fool. guns and samurai swords are meant for killing, hence have u ever heard of gunfoo??? didnt think so. tae kwon do. developed as a defensive protocol against the communists. aikido, similar entity. kung fu, buddhists needed to learn how to defend. kyokushin, same.
you dont even know about the art that you practice.

You are one clueless idiot. The Okinawans who developed Karate did not own guns and they were not allowed to own knives. They developed Karate as a form of self defense. Karate is not a game and the Okinawans were not playing around. Karate is what they used to go to war.

re read what i wrote, and then what you wrote. you are just repeating my words. SELF DEFENSE. [/quote]

Yes Self Defense. Back in the day it was no thing to maim or kill someone who attacked you.

[quote]

I didn’t say only boxing teaches evasion. In MMA evasion is highly unusual. Most MMA fighters will just stand there like an idiot and get hit. A lot of the fighters are wrestlers who learned a little about stand up fighting so they can stay in a fight long enough to drag the other guy to the ground. That is why they take so much abuse in the stand up.

that is why wrestlers are the most successful fighters in virtually every mma org. you just keep digging that hole guy. [/quote]

MMA rules make it safe for wrestlers to compete. There are plenty of fighters who didn’t come from wrestling who are dominant in MMA.

[quote]

wrestling. these kids get slammed just the same, if not more than kids in mma.

No they don’t. In restling you don’t get slammed on your head then receive a flurry of follow up blows. Nor do you recieve blows to the head then dumped. Wrestling doesn’t involve a lot of joint locking which can damage developing joints.

and you would say that because you have no wrestling experience. and if u do, i guarantee you were a sorry ass wrestler.

-power half nelson
-cross face cradle
-bow and arrow
-switch from bottom
-sweep single
-arm bar (not the same as mma)
-gable bar

just a short list of moves one can use to pin, takedown, or inflict pain or even injure your opponent. i cracked a kids ribs his first day of practice while doing a crossface cradle, bring his head to the knee… you wrestlers will know what i mean.

Generally they are not the same kinds of locks, wrestling is a sport where you are not trying to cripple the other guy. Besides in MMA a lot of very useful joint locks are banned because it would be too easy to injure someone with them.

and you say this with no grappling experience, nor are you familiar with any of the moves ive mentioned. [/quote]

Actually I have studied Chin Na. I just don’t study wrestling. I am sure I could throw a lot of terms out that you would not know what I am talking about, even if you actually knew the move I was describing. So why don’t you try harder to be a punk.

[quote]

a power half is when you are on top and place your forearm or elbow on the opponents neck. from there you proceed to hook the other arm and crank it so that the arm on one side, is forced to the other ear.

bow and arrow. your head digs into the opponents ribs and spine as you forcefully try to converge his neck to the knee.

a switch. from bottom position you hip heist out locking the opponents arm, much like a kimura without a grip, and lean into the joint causing the elbow to hyperextend and bringing the guys hips and shoulders down.

For all the stupid shit you have come up with you still have not made a rational case as to why kids need to be rushed into full contact. Full contact fighting is damaging even crippling. There is no benefit to getting a fighter injured before they are matured.

please quote where i say that kids should jump right into full contact sparring. you do that for me, and ill hand you a brownie. [/quote]

You are the one who thinks kids should be getting into MMA.

[quote]

alexander karelin has never fought an mma bout, nor has he done any type of competition including striking. your credibility has jus fallin off the map.

If he has never fought in MMA why did you offer him up as an example of someone in MMA? I would say if anyone is contradicting themselves it is you.

I based my comments on his performance in MMA on these videos of him fighting. I say you are the one who has shot through their credibility.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1009078311483133148&ei=vd2YSMvwE4jkrQL89IXrDA&q=alexander+karelin&vt=lf&hl=en

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

jesus man, you suck really bad.

those are pro wrestling matches… meaning that they, are… fixed.

WOW…
just WOW [/quote]

If he is a professional wrestler who has never fought in MMA and has only ever competeed in fixed matches why did YOU bring him into this discussion?

You brought him into this punk and now you are saying he doesn’t have any relevance to this discussion. Wow are you an immature fucking asshole.

Fedor is one of my favorite fighters but I am not a fanboy. Besides you are the one who stated that Fedor started Sambo at a very young age. Dumbass.

Just because he has been winning it doesn’t mean he hasn’t taken his shots. He’s avoided taking a really bad beating because of his skills and he has been winning. But he still gets beat on.

so you like fedor but you downplay kids who start training in ways that he has.

im sorry man, you fail, real bad.

There is a hell of a lot of competition and very little room at the top. A kid is going to have more chances of winning American Idol than becoming a world champion fighter.

SO PARENTS… SEND YOUR KIDS TO SINGING SCHOOL INSTEAD OF A GYM!!!

That wasn’t my point. But most kids would be better served with music lessons.

(speechless)

How do you know Fedor doesn’t have injuries? Have you seen all the people he has fought? Of course he has injuries. To do full contact martial arts you have to learn to live with pain. The thing I found works best is denial I tell myself “it didn’t hurt me” even when it does. All those fighters have injuries, pain and scars.

And how long have you been studying martial arts? Have you been studying long enough to remember the Ninja craze of the Eighties? I can remember how a lot of lay idiots were going around saying “Those Ninjas are something else”. “Do you do Ninjitsu”?

i practiced kawasakism, hondaism, the art of eating, tae kwon do, street fighting, bullying, and etc since i was like 8 and shit. im so not awesome.

I have grown to enjoy watching MMA matches but I don’t believe everything I read in the press or see on tv. Dana White is not the worlds foremost martial arts expert but he is a good salesman. Don’t believe the hype. Yes his fighters are tough and a few of them have good skills, but it isn’t the pinnacle of martial arts, any more than crappy Xience is the pinnacle of supplements. So get real.

XIENCE DOESNT EVEN SPONSER UFC ANYMORE DIPSHIT

AND WTF, I THOUGHT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT THE KIDS… WHAT ABOUT THE KIDSSS!!!

My point was there is a lot of salesmanship going on with the UFC and a lot of people who don’t know much are buying into it.

so you like fedor, but you hate mma…

lets stop this dude. it was funny at first but you just cant win. i feel embarrassed for you actually.

I’m done with punk.

Sifu · August 7, 2008, 12:55am

My Karate teachers has the patience of a saint. He’s really good with kids. He taught me well. He used to stick me with the kids class. It was character building and a good learning experience.

Plus when I worked as a bouncer I had to learn to deal with people who were not too responsive without losing my patience, otherwise I would have been fighting all night long.

Steel_Nation · August 11, 2008, 6:46pm

I think certain aspects of MMA could be good for kids. Not full-contact, but strikes below the shoulders while standing and no strikes on the ground. This would amount to a lot of wrestling, BJJ, maybe some judo, and kickboxing minus head strikes. I think the sport, with those guidelines, is much safer for kids than football or even baseball.

One other thing that has to be considered when you’re looking at the risk of injury is the relative strength of the kids. I don’t think they would be capable of producing enough force to injure each other (or themselves) with strikes, aside from a few bruises.

I am a lot more concerned with the child obesity epidemic than I am with the miniscule chance of injury in this case. Kids need more activity, and if this happens to be one that they will pursue with passion and interest, then it should be encouraged.

AZMojo · August 12, 2008, 6:13pm

Among the many distubing things in that video, I’m suprised nobody has mentioned that this yo-yo has little boys punching little girls in the face. What’s THAT teaching then?

Also, what’s up with kids using 4-6oz. MMA gloves to spar with, ON THEIR SECOND DAY?

WOW!!