Kickboxing

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
1

Hey all,

Before I joined the Navy I spent about 6-8 months training fairly frequently in Kickboxing and Brazillian Jui Jitzu. Since I decided to choose a field in the Navy that EXTREMELY limits my chances to work out, my participation in all activities has diminished. Lately I’ve found ways to bring the level of particiation back up by making my own little home gym. SO…

When I took lessons in Kickboxing, I never really worked w/ the bag at all; there were always bodies around to hold thai pads or spar with. My neighbor sold me his heavy bag stand and 100 lb. heavy bag (canvas), and I was hoping to find some pointers on here.

I’ve already gathered from Patricia and many others to DEFINITELY invest in a set of bag gloves. When I kick the bag w/ my shins, it is VERY VERY solid, and subsequently hurts with any sort of force/repetition. The bag doesn’t look like it has the packing material sag down too far or anything. Is it possible that I have to recondition my shins to such abuse once again? Also, how do I keep it from swinging w/ the kicks? I’ve picked up from others to try to circle the bag when I punch it, should I do this when kicking too? There is a big post at the back of the stand that makes it impossible for me to do anything much more than a 120o arc around the bag… And it doesn’t have any chains or anything at the bottom that I could affix it to something at the bottom…

Sorry for the long complicated question on something so simple…

Kyle

2

Hey There-

I have trained in Muay Thai about as long as you have, and have worked with the bag.
As for the hardness of the bag, this is actually a good thing. It will condition the shin to withstand inpact. I mean, if it hurts a lot to kick a canvas bag, how do you plan to connect your shin bone with someone else’s?

As for the bag swinging, try kicking the bag rythmically as it swings back toward you. On the second kick it should be pretty much stationary. When you kick try to get the to ridge of the shin bone to make contact.

When you punch, just don’t worry about it. An opponent won’t stand still, so why should the bag?
Hope that helps.

-Fireplug

3

Few Ideas,

Buy good bag gloves AND learn to wrap your hands. Damaging your hands is not a good idea. Ringside and Title Boxing have good stuff.

As far as shin conditioning goes, I havent ever found a shortcut. Dont try and do anything crazy like kicking solid objects or abusing your shins with sticks, bottles etc.(People do some crazy things). Just kick the bag or pads. If the bag is really solid, start off lighter…50% or so and be consistant. The goal is to decondition the pain receptors, nothing else…your shins are already plenty hard. Just keep at it and work up gradually to harder intensity. It also may help to kick the bag regularly throughout the day if its in your home gym…say 10 kicks each leg every time you pass it. With time, you’ll be able to smash the bag full power with little or no pain.

If the bag moves around too much for you, get a good bungee cord from home depot and duct tape it to the bottom. You will have to duct tape the shit out of it so it holds and it will look ugly but it works. Then hook the bungee to a weight plate or other heavy object. Ringside and Title sell sand bags made specifically for this if you want to spend the money. They also have metal rings that you can bolt to the floor to clip the bungee to. Those work awesome, but you might not be able to bolt something to your floor…I don’t know your living circumstances.

Good luck

4

Hey Fireplug and JD,

Thanks for the advice… I’ve set up the bag in my ‘home gym room’, but I’m still having some issues. I am going relatively light on it, as my shins hurt like hell if I give it a really solid kick. I kick it pretty hard for the first 2 or 3 1-minute rounds so that I’ll eventually get used to that stress on my shins.

The new problems are: 1) The top of the bag seems to give piss poor resistance when I punch it at the top in comparison to when I kick it at the bottom. Is this normal? I know that some have advised to not go heavy all the time on the punches and throw more of strategic punches to get form down, but I don’t go heavy all the time. I go heavy on the punches only part of the time. I think it’s only a 100 lb. bag (maybe 80?). and 2) After throwing only a handful (maybe 15) roundhouses to it, my shins are developing a ‘roadrash’ type wound from striking the canvas… Will my shins get used to this in time, or will I have giant scars and calluses on my shins?

I was looking into getting either a leather or a pleather kickboxing 6’ bag like they had at my gym to aid me in the problems mentioned above, but I want some input from the more expirienced first. The kickboxing bags from Title and TKO that I’ve looked at weigh 100 and 125 lbs. respectively. What do you guys think?

Kyle

5

Kyle,

Ill try to answer your questions in turn.

I never really used a canvas bag for muay thai, always leather or vinyl. Not really sure if your skin would callous to the point where you dont get the mat burn type of abrasions on your shin but I would imagine they would.

The top of the bag is always going to be softer than the bottom because of gravity. The packing material settles toward the bottom and compacts. If you want to use the bag more for boxing, hang it so the bottom is even with your waist. That way you’ll be punching the meatier center part, instead of the extreme top near the swivel which tends to become really soft and not offer a good “feel”.

A good Muay Thai bag will solve all of these problems I think. Honestly, I would go with Ringside, their bag is pretty good quality and not any more expensive than the others out there. Ringside also puts a thin layer of foam between the packing material and the outer shell. This would alleviate the stress on your shins somewhat, but you’ll still get a good conditioning effect when you start blasting the bag.

Best of luck

6

Thanks JD,

I think I’m going to go with the Ringside bag, it’s just my neighbor traded me the bag stand for a 300 lb. olympic set, and he had the bag so I figured ‘why not’… but this shit is unusually painful.

What techniques do you use when attacking the bag? Do you just do some jab/cross/hook/uppercut/roundhouse/knee/elbow combo of some sort? Do you sometimes just go all out? Do you sometimes focus on form only (with use of a mirror)? Like I said, I’ve never had to rely solely on the aid of a bag in order to train, so this is a first for me.

Kyle

7

Kyle,

 I have been training Muay Thai for >3 years now.  You seem very enthusiastic about it and want to develop.  However, bear in mind that Thai Boxing isn't just about how hard you can kick/punch an object that does neither back at you.  You need to think about technique, strategy, etc.  With that said, it also sounds like you don't have much time to join a good Muay Thai facility and get trained, therefore you have to resort to just "training" on a bag.  
 First of all, your bag sounds like a POS.  =]  Given all the problems you have had with it, it really would be worth it if you invest in a new bag.  Might I suggest something >100 lbs?  Maybe one that is 200 lbs?  Or if you can afford it and accommodate it, get a full length and a half length bag.  You can dedicate the half length one for punching.  And for gawd's sake get a leather one. 
 Yes, kicking is a bitch, but why are you killing your shins right from the get-go?  My advice, take a few rounds to work on your technique, to land at the right angle whilst extending your hips.  Work on getting that strong pivot, that jump step, getting your arm out and the other blocking your face; work on the recovery etc.  In short, go easy for the first several rounds.  You will still condition your shin but you will be able to keep going for longer.  THEN towards the end, go hard to finish it up.  (Think of it this way, if you were to run 3 miles, would you sprint the first 400 yards or the last 400 yards?)

 Some exercises you can do include: 2(3) min rounds of kicking, both legs, teep kicks, double/triple kicks (focus on speed); knees, thrust knees, clenching side knees; punches of all sorts and different combinations, fast jab with a hard right, 2 jabs with a roll to the right and a dig into the kidney, etc.; elbows of all sorts; and then put everything together.  Vary the intensity, also work some rounds where you are barely hitting the bag and instead are focused ONLY on speed.  Work on interval rounds where you do 10 seconds of light fast punches and then 10 seconds of HARD all out; vary the time interval.  
 Again, remember that working on a bag will only take you so far.

Hope that helps.

8

Hey Man,

Thanks for the help. I know the bag is a piece, but I kinda bought it from the neighbor that traded me the stand. I spend $80… should I just pitch it? I was looking at the Ringside Thai Heavy Bag. It says it’s over 100 lbs. and topgrain cowhide. Whatdaya think? Here is a link if you wanna look at it: http://www.ringside.com/store/prodinfo.asp?number=THB&variation=&aitem=78&mitem=111 .

I did have a few questions about your recommendations. What are Teep Kicks? For knees, is that just bringing the knee straight up? I think I’ve only done thrust knees where I brought the knee up and gave it a nice strong hip thrust outward and kinda leaned back. I’m assuming clenching side knees are where I get close and clench the bag and bring my knee up at the side, then slam it inward? When you say '2 quick jabs then roll to the right and dig into the kidney, are you talking about 2 quick taps and then “rolling” to the right then PUNCHING the kidney?

I applogize about the basic quesitons, but its been a while since I took kickboxing (>2 years) and the kickboxing I took was very Americanized. I now remember my private instructor always making me go fast and technical for the first part of the lesson and then all out at the end; thanks for the reminder. Also, reguarding properly extending the hip and turning the ankle inward for a nice powerful hip kick (not snap kick, damn it :wink: ), will this promote flexibility? Flexibility has ALWAYS been my week point, and I should improve it. Is this “active stretching”? Should I stretch before this?

Reguarding the inability to train at a gym, what do you suggest I do? I am attempting to use kickboxing to get back into past times that I really enjoy, but I work over 55 hour per week (on rotating shift work) and attend school for about 16 credit hours per semester (still have homework, mind you). So I guess right now the only useful work I can do is bag work… after I graduate in Fall 2005 I may buy a set of Thai pads and pair up w/ a partner for a little more interactive pad beating. I would spar, but I’m in the Navy and it’s difficult to find someone that actually knows what they’re doing… Everyone’s the expert! Eventually I will join a gym again, though.

To date, I’ve jumped from a decent 12% bf to a whopping 22%. Will training on the bag help me drop fat? I remember that when I trained Kickboxing and BJJ, I never had to cardio. The winter months of upstate NY are coming, and it’s HELLA cold. If I could substitute this for some of my cardio sessions (around 2 or 3 per week), that would be sweet. Mike Mahler put out a High Octane Cardio article out a while back where he recommended waylaying the bag for about a minute, then jumping straight to a K-Bell/D-Bell exercises, and repeating for like 10 cycles… How would I ‘go easy’ on my shins in this respect? Should I just stick to punching it for this style of cardio?

Thanks for all the help man,

Kyle

[quote]IronHell wrote:
Kyle,

 I have been training Muay Thai for >3 years now.  You seem very enthusiastic about it and want to develop.  However, bear in mind that Thai Boxing isn't just about how hard you can kick/punch an object that does neither back at you.  You need to think about technique, strategy, etc.  With that said, it also sounds like you don't have much time to join a good Muay Thai facility and get trained, therefore you have to resort to just "training" on a bag.  
 First of all, your bag sounds like a POS.  =]  Given all the problems you have had with it, it really would be worth it if you invest in a new bag.  Might I suggest something >100 lbs?  Maybe one that is 200 lbs?  Or if you can afford it and accommodate it, get a full length and a half length bag.  You can dedicate the half length one for punching.  And for gawd's sake get a leather one. 
 Yes, kicking is a bitch, but why are you killing your shins right from the get-go?  My advice, take a few rounds to work on your technique, to land at the right angle whilst extending your hips.  Work on getting that strong pivot, that jump step, getting your arm out and the other blocking your face; work on the recovery etc.  In short, go easy for the first several rounds.  You will still condition your shin but you will be able to keep going for longer.  THEN towards the end, go hard to finish it up.  (Think of it this way, if you were to run 3 miles, would you sprint the first 400 yards or the last 400 yards?)

 Some exercises you can do include: 2(3) min rounds of kicking, both legs, teep kicks, double/triple kicks (focus on speed); knees, thrust knees, clenching side knees; punches of all sorts and different combinations, fast jab with a hard right, 2 jabs with a roll to the right and a dig into the kidney, etc.; elbows of all sorts; and then put everything together.  Vary the intensity, also work some rounds where you are barely hitting the bag and instead are focused ONLY on speed.  Work on interval rounds where you do 10 seconds of light fast punches and then 10 seconds of HARD all out; vary the time interval.  
 Again, remember that working on a bag will only take you so far.

Hope that helps.
[/quote]

9

In regards to your question about cardio, there’s a great article by Mike Mahler on his site, I don’t know if you can find it here, on what he calls High Octane Cardio. He discusses using a bag in combination with brief rest periods and strength work to get a great cardio/conditioning workout for fighters.

10

Two things bro:

  1. I own that exact Ringside bag and it rocks. Definitely worth the money.

BUT

  1. before you drop the cash on a whole new bag there’s one thing I’d suggest before you get rid of it. Try taking out what it is currently filled with and replace it; “unstuff” it basically. And then refill it with much softer material. This may or may not address the chafing you get from the canvas material, but if it works you’ll save $$$. BTW the bags used in Thailand are filled with rags and are very soft, from what I hear.
11

Kyle,

 You really should define what your goals are when you talk about "kickboxing" (I cringe when I see this word since kickboxing and Thai boxing are so different... kickboxing doesn't work on the knees and elbows as much, they don't do leg checks, and they kick with their feet instead of their shins; I also see images of lil' ladies young and old doing Tae-Bo style BS and calling it kickboxing.)  K, enuff of the tirade.  You should prioritize.  You seem to want to do it all, you want to get good at your technique, you want to condition your shins, you want to get a good cardio workout in, you want to lose fat, on and on.  What are your goals and what gets the priority?

If I were you, since you can’t bet into a dojo and train properly, maybe you can get a book (I think there’s a popular one just called Muay Thai) and/or a video that shows you the technique and go with that. Because realize that if you practice with bad technique and get use to it, once you get into a dojo, it’s gonna take a heck of a lot to UNTRAIN your bad habits (believe me, bad habits die hard and they can also kill you in fights :wink: Like not keeping your hands up for example…) So dedicate portions of your workout to different aspects of what you want to get out of the exercise.

Like I said, in the beginning, after a proper warm up (jump rope, stretch, shadow box) start light on the bag for several rounds. Working strictly technique. Bring a full body length mirror down and place it on the wall behind the bag or wherever so you can see yourself doing your stuff to observe your technique. You want cardio? Try going all out, I mean non-stop hare punches, kicks, what have you on the bag for 2 minutes. You will burn. Rest a minute, do it again. You will burn some more. Rest a minute, now do FULL speed non-stop light moves and I mean FULL speed. You will burn some more. I do not know anything about mixing bag work with lifting during the same session (I keep them separate) so I cannot comment there. Now what were your questions? =]

12

Heh, try selling it to someone else :wink:

Teep kicks (I think that’s the spelling) are where you bring your foot up and thrust your hip forward to push your opponent back and then reverse the motion, bring your foot back before setting it down. Yeah, straight knees are like teep kicks, bring yer knee up and drive with the hip. Kneeing while clenching is similar to what you describe, except now it’s from the side and you strike with the inside of the knee. Yes, DIG = punch, that was just an example of the many different combinations you can pull. Also, practice ending all of your combinations with a kick, so jab-right kick, jab-jab-right cross-left kick, left uppercut, right cross, left kick. (Notice that your kick is always the opposite side of the last punch, there are exceptions of course such as sometimes it’s okay to do a right cross followed by a right kick…)

Yes kick with your hips, not your legs. Practice this: stand with your side against a wall, now take the leg that’s closer to the wall and take a step back with that leg (so you are in a fighting stance). Now, position your bag if you can or find a partner with a kick shield and kick as hard as you can with your back leg. Because of the wall, you cannot swing your leg and this will teach you to kick through your hips. When you are kicking, think of it as swinging a bat, you swing a bat with your body and your arms follow. Or think of it as throwing a football, golfing, etc.

Yes always stretch, that’s key, while kicking may help passively with your flexibility, you will also be more likely to pull something if you do not warm up/stretch out properly beforehand. There is no substitute for stretching if you want to be flexible.

Now… help me out, how do I do the “quote” thing here? :wink:

13

Kyle,

Lot of good advice being given out here.

Let me add this as far as training routines go…

First, the book fighting strategies of Muay Thai by Pedro Villabos is excellent…go to amazon and its like $20 bucks.

2nd…get this:

http://sherdog.bigstep.com/item.jhtml;$sessionid$RKF2RNIAAAKCNTZENUFZPQWPERWRJPX0?UCIDs=894902|1224210&PRID=1077841

Bas Ruttens workout CD’s are an incredible training tool. Basically, Bas calls out combos in 2 and 3 minute rounds. Theres a boxing CD, a Muay Thai CD, a MMA CD(throws in sprawls to the Muay Thai combos) and an all around workout CD which is mainly bodyweight exercises. There is also a small book and a DVD which demonstrates all the combos and explains what he is calling out.

Pretty fun when your training alone and its also very tough to keep up with Bas.
Heavy Duty cardio required to be going hard on the bag for 10 3 minute rounds, especially at the pace he calls. Will also smooth out your combos.

Other than that, there is no substitute for a trainer/training partners.

Good luck.

14

[quote]JD430 wrote:
2nd…get this:

http://sherdog.bigstep.com/item.jhtml;$sessionid$RKF2RNIAAAKCNTZENUFZPQWPERWRJPX0?UCIDs=894902|1224210&PRID=1077841

Bas Ruttens workout CD’s are an incredible training tool. Basically, Bas calls out combos in 2 and 3 minute rounds. Theres a boxing CD, a Muay Thai CD, a MMA CD(throws in sprawls to the Muay Thai combos) and an all around workout CD which is mainly bodyweight exercises. There is also a small book and a DVD which demonstrates all the combos and explains what he is calling out.

Pretty fun when your training alone and its also very tough to keep up with Bas.

Heavy Duty cardio required to be going hard on the bag for 10 3 minute rounds, especially at the pace he calls. Will also smooth out your combos.

Other than that, there is no substitute for a trainer/training partners.

Good luck.[/quote]

I have Bas’s workout at it f-in ROCKS!!

I have some of his stuff in mp3 format :wink:

15

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all of your help. With all of this information I surely have a great idea as to where I should start in my training again.

BTW, Don’t worry, Ironhell, I know what you mean by fitness boxing. My Kickboxing was more like an americanized Thai Boxing… Our “moves”, if you will, consisted of Jab, Cross, Hooks, uppercuts, and a basic elbow for the punches and low to mid roundhouses, foot jab (Teep Kicks?), and a planted side kick for the kicks. My instructor always emphisized hitting with the shin like a bat w/ the roundhouse and always open up your hips to get the most powerful kick. His recommendation was to point the ankle of the planted foot toward the target… I guess this just opened up the hips more.

I am interested, though, in finding out more about clinching, various elbows, various knees, and other pure Muay Thai techniques that got lost in americanized Kickboxing… I’m sure those are in the books and tapes.

Kyle