T Nation

Ketogenesis part 2

Good day!

  1. Will whey-supplementation (some 20 grams) during workouts to avoid catabolism, halt fat-burning to such an extent that the little-muscle preservation one get from it is not really worth it, when getting ripped and not focusing on getting big?

  2. Since the body’s ATP energy-production is (I guess) pretty much shut down due to lack of carbs while in ketogenesis, will supplementation with creatine and/or ribose have any benefit?

  3. T-Dawg on it, is it any use in loading up on creatine and all that, in the months when I am building mass, if I am just loosing it all while in ketogenesis anyway?

  4. What about testosterone? Since muscle-growth is going to be limited anyhow while on a ketogenesis-diet, does it make any sense or benefit to supplement with T-boosters like “Tribex” and/or “ZMA” while on a ketogenesis-diet? (If I am not particularly building any muscles anyhow, why care about maximum T-levels? Besides, with all that fat and cholesterol, won’t T-levels be quite high anyway?) Does high-testosterone levels offer any particular fat-burning prospects?

  5. To relieve myself from the inevitable carb-cravings, is it ok to drink SUGAR-FREE soft-drinks (that however contains aspartame other calorie-free sugar-substitutes) while on ketogenesis-diet? And what about SUGAR-FREE chewing-gum?

Also, I have heard that the sparkling carbonised water in soft-drinks ruins either fat-burning prospects, or it ruins protein-metabolism, I don’t quite remember which. Is there any truth in this?

I thank you for your time and I hope this doesn’t cause too much trouble to answer.

With best regards,
Von Nordstrom

Diet sodas are fine for me. They’re the only real thing that give me some sanity and social standing whilst on a ketogenic diet (standing around drinking a can of diet coke looks somewhat normal!)

I can say all I took was a decent multi-vitamin and a carb-free protein powder. Personally I don’t think it matters about eating every two hours as your insulin levels are way down anyway so you’ve got little fluctuations and cravings. Creatine might be over-kill as my understanding is that it requires carbs to enter the muscle cells.

But… saying all that, I pretty much did a good old fashioned Dan Duchaine BodyOpus diet for about 10 weeks and got very good results.

You need to read Lyle McDonald’s (sp?) book The Ketogenic Diet. It is the best single source of referenced material on the subject. I loaned my copy out but will take a shot at the answers I remember. Whey is not the best protein to consume, except right after training. Don’t remember what he said 'bout creatine but I’ve not read anything about it reducing the effectiveness of a ketogenic diet. In fact it would fit in nicely with the Targeted Ketogenic Diet described in the book (carbs consumed before and/or after intense exercise) so you could mix it with simple sugars. Don’t remember too much about T levels on the diet, but with the level of saturated fat consumed it probably won’t decrease. One thing to remember, there is nothing “magical” about being in the state of ketosis-carb restriction doesn’t need to drop below 30 grams/day for the diet to be effective-lipolysis will still be enhanced as long as calories are adequately low. After trying all of the variations in the book Targeted, Cyclic (carb loading on weekends), and Standard (Atkins like-always low carb) I have come to enjoy the T-dawg diet on this website the most. It has evolved into a hybrid of a Targeted and Cyclic low-carb diet that contains enough carbs that you can actually get some (not 2 much) muscle growth on. I think that this diet is optimal for the majority of bodybuilders. Dr. Mauro DiPasquali ended up recommending a very simliar diet in his low-carb book The Metabolic Diet (which evolved from the popular Anabolic Diet). And as for the aspartame containing stuff, McDonald stated that the phenylalanine and/or the citric acid contained in these foods/beverages could interrupt ketosis in some. I always do better on low-carb diets when I limit myself to one such drink a day. If you really intend to get serious about low carb stuff, you need this book. It contains a lot of other good info, just about everything you would want to know.

Your bodies ATP Energy production would not be shut down only produced from lipid metabolism instead, if your body didnt produce any ATP you would go into rigor mortis due to your muscles wouldn’t be able to uncontract. You will not lose all the benefits of creatine supplememtation while dieting, only the water retention part, yet the added strength during workouts and protein synthesis aid in hypertrophy of the myofibrils which will remain after you stop taking it but remain training.

Its been proven you don’t need carbs to get creatine into muscle so creatine is fine on low carb diet and ribose will work good also because you only need 3 grams ribose pre WO and that won’t effect ketogensis. Actually, whey is highly glucogenic and you could have a bigger “carb effect” by the body turning whey into carbs via glucogensis. Whey isn’t the protein of choice in keto diets. Beef or eggs is much better choice. And T shouldn’t be suppressed by keto diet - look at the Anabolic diet - its a low carb, high fat diet and it raises T levels as what the body needs to produce T is lots of good fats not carbs. There should not be a reason that you cann’t gain muscle and lose fat on the keto diet if done right. Eat lots of beef and eggs and supplement with lots of good fats like Flax, Olive oil and fish oil. With the good fats, tribex, etc will work. And lift HEAVY low rep to gain muscle on keto diet - not high rep which will burn fat but not add strength. Use cardio for the fat burning.