T Nation

Keto Support Group

T-Playaz
with all the questions on ketogenic dieting (i.e., SKD, CKD, TKD, and coming off them) I figured maybe we should start a keto support group where everyone can discuss particular aspects of keto diets. Since a few of us have had great experience in experimenting with them, perhaps we can help. Not to mention I love to hear new ideas, supps to use, etc. etc.
As I have mentioned before, the big kicker is coming off of them right, and carbing up right. In addition, perhaps we could through out the theory of using keto for lean gain. Some, including myself, have noticed results with it. Is insulin anabolic or just anticatabolic?..Perhaps keto is the answer. Food for thought.
Later
Vain
Keto guru

I just finished up my diet (keto of course), and I’m on the first two weeks of Growth Surge Phase I. Anyway, I have a lot of experience with keto so I would be more than happy to help if anyone has any questions.

I took my ab skinfold from 10.5 mm to 8 mm in just 4 days of ketosis. Strange thing it was plateued at 10.5 mm for some time…and then suddenly dropped 2.5mm in just 4 days!
NOW i seem to have plateued at 8 mm though…=P Still kinda weird that I lost that much fat in such short amount of time and then just stuck. Whats my next move, if im looking to go down to 5 mm? Any suggestions y ´all?

Can someone give me an idea what is the difference between SKD, CKD, etc? Does this mean iso caloric or hypocaloric? Beside, what is the meaning of those two things, iso and hypo? I’ve been meaning to ask but have not. Just some definition help here, not avaliable in FAQ.

I’m ending my third week, started to get the DOMS bad, along with low intensity cardio at the beginning of the week on monday. 2nd session of cardio on wednesday was a bitch. opting for high protein than fat, although much have told me that the opposite is better.

I got to run out for now, but quickly, SKD means standard ketogenic diet (hypocaloric, no carb up) whereas CKD stands for Cyclical ketogenic diet (hypocaloric with one day of primiarly carb loading at twice diet calories)…both versions are hypocaloric (any diet for fat loss is of course) but with the CKD you carb up once, thus refilling muscle glycogen and to do so, you go over mntc caloris (but it must be structured)

as for the skinfold, its probably subcuteanous water affecting it, as the ketones have a very diuretic effect…you don’t lose that much fat in that amonut of time…focus on the calorie balance.
ltr. vain

I have also done keto diets many times. As I have mentioned before, I have the best success with CKD’s if I carb up only once every two weeks. Currently I am Training HST style while on a CKD and it’s working better than any other training protocol I have used while dieting. I have actually gained a little strength while dropping 24lbs in 5 1/2 weeks and I don’t appear to have lost any muscle mass. Usually I have lost some lbm by this point. I’ll keep posting my results as long as this keto support thread lasts.

I also have had great success with keto diets. If anyone has questions or needs advice I’d be more than happy to share my experiences and tips.

what are some examples of keto menus?

Breakfast: 2Cups Papetti Egg Whites (Sometimes Just one) with slice real cheese (any kind) and possibly a tablespoon of coconut oil
Lunch: maybe a can of tuna, 2Tbsp of natural PB, EAS carb control bar, or keto-pro shake.
Dinner: really any meat (around 8-12oz) slice of cheese, tbsp of real mayo, 1cup stir-fry.
prior to bed: Met-Rx APM 60, EAS Bar
not traditional 3:1, but highly ketogenic for me
Its just one example, maybe I should post others on my site.
later vain

I’m not the most original on keto plans, but I’ll list a few of my personal faves. 4-5 slices melted string cheese, raw almonds (need another source of protein with it though) or macadamia nuts, 5 tbsp. heavy whipping cream w. 1.5 scoops Low-carb Grow or favorite pro powder (from Lyle McD), chicken w. melted string cheese and very small amt. of light spaghetti sauce (add appropriate fat source), and one of my favorite snacks…sugar-free Jello w. sm. amt. of light whipping cream. I’m sure there are MANY more things you can do.

Started 4-13-02 @ 170 lbs. 4-27-02 @ 161 lbs. hoping to be at 159 lbs on 5-4-02. My goal is 150 lbs. by June 1. Does the 2 lbs rule apply to keto diets? I hear different things from everybody, more grams fat than protein and visa versa. What is everyone’s opinion that? What works for you? My first week I strictly followed about 1800 kcal, 150 g fat and 100 g protein, lost about 6-7 lbs. I have strayed from that though, and am opting for getting protein requirements - at least 140 grams, and filling the rest in with fat. I can’t say which works better for me yet, this being my first time. This week I started cardio 3x week.

To all the Keto Vets:

I am 33 and have done Keto diets for several years (about 7) off and on when I needed to drop some fat fast. This past year for the very first time I am having problems dropping body fat and weight while on a Keto diet. I have not changed anything from my previous keto diets - could my body eventully adapt somehow to not respond to fat loss in ketosis? Very very strange. Also, is taking ephedrine and caefine bad while on a keto diet? Atkins says yes and I believe Duchanine said no? One thing I found that is great for no carb meals is a product called Ojai that is made with canola oil and mixed with different herbs (great stuff and zero carbs). thanks guys

I definitely would consume more than 100 g. protein daily. I’d say initially keep it fairly close to 1 g/lb the first couple of weeks, and you can gradually go a bit lower if desired; however, 100 g. is too low for your bw. The first week you will most likely lose more than 2 lbs with the water loss and all, but after that you will/should lose it just like any normal diet, provided you are consistent with carb-ups. I figure my cals, then use about 20 g. carbs, .9-1 g. protein/lb, then get the rest from fat; however there are some people such as Pavel Tsatsouline that recommend a higher protein and lower fat intake. While this may work for some, I think it is going to be more difficult to establish ketosis, which I strive to do although some don’t believe it is necessary. Basically no matter how much info/advice I or someone else gives you, you’ll have to do a fair amount of experimenting to tailor the diet to your needs. It took me 4-5 times of keto to completely determine what the best method was for me in terms of carb-ups, fat/pro ratios, meal frequency, etc. Hope that helps.

bump

I agree with Monty Ritchie. Learn as much as you can about the keto diets first, then you have to experiment to see what works best for you. I do a CKD where I carb up on the weekends and get back into ketosis on the weekdays. So my keto meals are strictly fat with 30% protein because I have to get into ketosis as soon as possible. I get knocked out of it easily or have trouble getting into it with too much protein or even a little bit of carbs like from condiments or nuts. If I stayed in ketosis longer I could probably be looser with the carbs. I also start off using flaxseed oil and extra virgin olive oil as my fats till I hit ketosis, then I loosen up a bit and eat the good stuff like bacon because I don’t think your really absorbing it once your into ketosis(I believe it’s used for energy in the form of ketones or excreted through your urine). Also take non soluble fiber for your plumbing, practice your carb up and you should do fine. One last thing watch your calories. If they’re too high you won’t lose wieght. You won’t gain any either because the excess like I said is excreted.

by the way, that nelson montana article in MM was brutal…guy doesn’t know his science whatsoever and it characterizes that magazine perfectly: A joke.
later vain

Tomorrow, 5/4/02, ends my third week. Every weekend so far I haven’t done a practical “carb-up”, you know the 24 hr. treatment, I’ve just binged on carbs, but combined with protein and very minimal fat. The first weekend I ate around 300-400 grams, the second weekend I ate around 150-200 grams, all over a 1-2 day period. I plan on staying on this diet until I reach 8-10%. Would anybody recommend that I continue to consume carbs every weekend, or go every two weeks?

How do you know when you are “in ketosis”?

The scale says im up a pound from last week. However, I feel like I cut down this week. Anyway, this week was third week using an EC stack and I noticed that I was feeling its effects. Is this normal?