I am in my second week of Rob Faigin’s NHE Eating Plan. I finshed a one-week low carb (<30g/day) phase last Saturday, and had two refeed meals Sunday afternoon. I am at 195 lbs. and 13%BF. My current observations are: 1) I don’t have my lower abdomen carb bloat that I tend to wrestle with during conventional eating, 2) there is some constipation even though I eat a lot of salad, 3) I have been much more sore after leg workouts than when I was using Surge, and 4) I am a bit more smooth right now than I had been when I ate a few more carbs. It seems I need to be more conscious of total calorie count to prvent the smoothness. Faigin advocates no calorie counting and eating <50g protein and moderate fat each meal, every 2-4 hours. I am also wondering if I need to use glutamine/BCAAs before/during/after leg workouts to reduce soreness. And as far as the constipation, I don’t find psyllium and other fiber products help much. My bowels just feel more sluggish. Any suggestions or ideas for me to consider as I continue? Per Faigin, I will have another couple of refeed meals Thursday afternoon, then again Sunday, then Thursday… He also advocates <20g protein and low fat with starchy carbs for refeeds. He says the protein plus carbs can cause digestive distress, and the emphasis on refeeds is to consume carbs. Tampa Terry, I know you have read this book. It was your positive comments that got me to order his book and give it a try. Thanks for any assistance.
Ironic
ketones are mildly diureitc, so I am not sure…you say you have less lower ab bloat, but then you say you are somewhat smooth?
Which one is it?
Your plan sounds good although at your current bf% level, i might suggest fewer refeeds/CHO loads
Vain
Thanks for the reply vain. Even at current BF levels and slightly higher, I can see a 4-pack. I carry most of my BF on my hips and legs. I can’t see as much definition right now. And I have some degree of IBS, so proper digestion and elimination are a challenge and concern for me when choosing eating plans. I tend to easily get a distended lower belly when carbs are higher. Lower carbs and smaller meals seems to help this problem. I hope that makes sense.
Hi, there, ironic! Re the fiber, I take a heaping TABLEspoon in a glass of Crystal Light. From there, I drink another glass of water. Try those proportions and see what kind of results you get. If that somehow doesn’t do the job for you, I’d do the same thing 12 hours later; i.e., twice a day. At a certain point, your bowels won’t have a choice but to cooperate. Promise! (grin)
You touched on one of the things where Faigin and I travel different paths; i.e., I count calories and keep a food log. That’s your choice to make, of course, but Faigin’s book is for the average person, and he says so. I have goals that are probably a little more extreme than the average person. My goal is 10-12% BF. The lower you go, the tighter your diet needs to be.
My memory from Lyle MacDonald’s treatise is that glutamine can keep you out of ketosis. Nonetheless, I’ve heard good things about BCAAs and L-glutamine being LBM protective when taken before and during a workout. I’d be inclined to experiement. If you do, please report back your results.
Re workouts while cutting (i.e., doing low carbs while hypocaloric), I noticed a big difference in improved energy levels and less soreness when I switched to a 5x5 strength program from a hypertrophy program. It’s difficult if not impossible to build muscle when you’re hypocaloric. Repairing muscle is very calorically expensive. So if you’re hypocaloric and doing the type of program that really tears down muscle, you’re going to have more Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS). Myself, I’ll save the hypertrophy type programs for when I’m bulking.
Just wanted to give a shout out to all who requested the guide…its going fairly well although i am still integrating the part on leptin which I have researched for some time and have much personal data on…
Just ask Brent Nelson about the data!!
Its cold as balls up here in Central New York, but i did sprints anyway.
Vain
On the dl
Just another thought.
as outlined in the guide and as I have said before, MCT’s are often overlooked when on a keto diet…i did whole tablespoons (properly measured) of coconut oil…
As tampa astutely pointed out, when on a keto diet or any cut diet for that matter, there are levels upon which one can be on…I think Tampa might be like myself…I track every damn nutrient there is including the caloric value of equal packets and gum…its all databased…ask Brent Nelson
but, if you are going to be serious, there ain’t no game playin.
Giddy up
Vain
Thanks TT. I will give the fiber another go. Sometimes it seems too much fiber causes as much problems as too little. I seem to be a tad delicate when it comes to that. I’ll start slow with an extra 2t daily and work my way up. I have been doing a modest workout going heavy for 5 intense reps per set for most sets. Workouts go an hour every M/W/F. I also get some interval cardio in 3 days a week, some rope work and some sprint work. I will also keep a log of my food intake as well. At 195 and 13%BF, I plan to eat 280g protein, 105h fat and 28g carbs on non-refeed days. I will divide that into 6-7 meals. I may give the BCAAs a shot if this soreness continues. Soreness plays havoc with my cardio. Does anyone have an idea for brand and website of a decent BCAA product to try? I’ve heard of Ice and Glutacene. Kilosports also has powdered BCAAs at 1000g for $100, but I was hoping for a less expensive trial run. Thanks for the help. Anybody else want to join in the conversation?
Dr.DiPasquale says that you should stay away from MCT’s because it will prevent you from using stored fat for energy. Only long chain triglycerides should be used to prevent this from happening. You will use the MCT’s much like you would glucose.
To Ironic, I’ve been meaning to purchase NHE but I was curious what Faigin suggests for a mass building phase as opposed to cutting. Can you give the main details, please?
Vain: I’ve been following this thread and haven’t had the time to post, so I thought now that I had the time, I’d pop in and toss in my two cents.
Vain has written a very good, all-encompassing keto-guide. To be short, I was amazed at the amount of data and ideas present in this paper/article.
I’d been on a low-carb approach for awhile and reading this helped me understand some of the things happening with my fat-loss, both good and bad.
I integrated some of the ideas (not all, because I am still of the mind tha tyou need the post-workout carbs, but I’m doing some more research on that), and saw some additional fat loss in my trouble areas.
One of the parts that I especially liked was his research on refeeding (as anyone who has talked to me knows I am very interested in). I had been going on the approach that I needed to do my carb up at certain times, as opposed to when my body told me to.
OK, I don’t know how much sense this post made, but what can you do? Anyway, Vain, I was thinking, you should split that paper/article up into a three part article for T-Mag. I think it would make for some good reading.
Loop,
now there’s an example where my protocol takes a twist from Bodyopus…MCT’s do act like glucose and they do NOT prevent you from using stored fat, as long as your calorie balance is negative…they promote and maintain ketosis, and spare LBM more than LCT or carbs. I am not quite sure what Di’Pasquale was thinking on that one…
Brent,
Thanks for the props man, now my ego got a well needed boost…anyway, I like your idea on the three part series. Perhaps I should present my nutritional tracker along with it, but I have worked so long and hard on that to just give it away…I still also want the article to get a little more scientific, particularly on the aspect of refeeds. I address this peripherally in my write-up although allusions are made. I think some of the early writers like D’Pasquale (sp?) and even McDonald laid great foundations, but I think they weren’t as obsessive and compulsive as some of us. You can gurantee that I have looked into what I have penned. I get real fired up when I see that MCT’s don’t allow one to lose fat…its just nonsense if you really look at it…Small things I am a proponent of.
I believe that when we do things, we should know what we do…and that is why i like this forum so much, people want to known the science behind it all, not just put this and that and have a great physique…
Thanks man.
Vain
Ironic, IBS, as I’m sure you know, is a disease that responds favorably to a high-fiber diet. However, the type of fiber often used in both research and clinical practice has been wheat bran. As wheat is among the most commonly mplicated foods in malabsorptive and allergic conditions, the use of wheat bran is usally not indicated in individuals with symptoms of IBS since food allergy is a significant causative factor in this condition. The most effective fiber supplements are the water-soluble forms. Consider trying something like guar gum.
Loopfit, NHE has a “General Population” version of the diet and a BB version of the diet. You would like the BB version, as its stated purpose is to put on muscle while minimizing the fat gain that is typical with a bulking cycle. The thing is you’re already doing EXACTLY what Faigin suggests. I’ve got an extensive library, but it’s still about the best $30 I ever spent on a diet/nutrition book.
On a personal level I have to admit that I was excited to see that you’re experimenting with a low-carb, above-maintenance bulking cycle. My intentions are to do the same as I am highly carb intolerant. Heck, some people are allergic to milk or wheat. At times I’m just tempted to tell people that I’m allergic to carbs. (grin)
Of course keto dieting brings up back to the question:
can you put on muscle while maintaining or even losing fat?
I doubt it.
There is however, recent evidence that significant amounts of ketone bodies are excreted in urine…the data previously had been mixed, and quite frankly, still is. In addition, high levels of ketones can cause an insulin release…
these two “loose truths” put together offer some credence that the “golden pair” could possibly be achieved simultaneously, although there is a paucity of real-world data on this
Vain
Updated keto guide with discussion on leptin, refeeds, and estrogen fat is now available as beta release.
Vain
Where’d ya’ll go?
the pound or what?
LOL
Vain
I know Heb and a few other old timers have stuff to say here.
Vain
Do the keto’ers here do long periods of low calories (sub maintenance) as well as low carbs? I with the folks who have posted in other threads, I’ve got a lot to lose. Seems like most writers stick with 2 lbs as being the absolute max to lose a week, and I’d like to be able to do that for a sustained period of time, without it all rebounding back on me.
Vain…been away from the PC but just got your new keto manual…haven’t really had been able to give it the time it deserves but appears you’ve put a lot of time and research along with experience into it…looks to be a good read…and anybody interested in fine tuning their keto diet should contact Vain at his web page…keto and hot-rox should rock…later…Heb
Well it has been over a week now since I posted my intro on this thread. At the beginning I weighed in at 102.6kg, my weight on day 7 was 97.6kg, then after my 2nd reefed day (I am doing 3 days keto, 1 refeed) my weight went back up to 100kg, now this morning after one days keto I am back down to 98kg. The pattern that seems to be emerging with the weight loss followed by the weight gain again with the reefed, and boy do I pack it on that day, will see me lose around 2kg or maybe a little more a week. I may have to cut the cals a little on the reefed day, I will just wait and see what develops.
My cal intake is about 1000cals on the keto days, jumping to about 3500-4000 on the refeed. My macronutrient percentages would be approx 55% carbs15% fat and the rest protein.
It is too early yet to quantify how greatly my strength levels have been effected, as when starting this diet my program had plateaued, and so I was switching my set rep scheme. I will know at the end of this week when I repeat my program what the results are, whether I have lost, gained, or just remained static.
Aside from that the only thing that I will be changing is buying a fibre supplement. By the time day 3 rolls around and all the glycogen is depleted from my body, going to the can is an experience that to put it mildly is not an experience I would been keen to repeat.
From a psychological standpoint so far I have found this diet much easier, 3 days seems just the right amount, I wake up on the 4th hungry for carbs and ready to eat. Mentally I feel more alert this way, then I did when on my last diet when I went totally keto, and feel a lot stronger too. Though the litmus test for this will come when I revisit the iron this week, lol.
Firstly where do you get Lyle Macs book and when was it published?
Secondly What do you guys think of muscle milk by cyto sport. It has a lot of MCTs and it only has 12 carbs per 2 scoops.
Thirdly are any of you guys big? You say you don’t eat post workout carbs, well maybe you should. Isn’t the whole point of weight training to BUILD muscle and not just maintain. Not to be a dick, just wanted to see what and why you guys go no carbs on the PW?