T Nation

Keto Support Group V.2

T-Monstaz.
Last Spring I began a keto support group that generated a lot of interest. I wanted to start a little early this year and include some new ideas surrounding my new diet approach, the advanced cyclical ketogenic diet (modified BodyOpus). This diet approach deals with leptin refeeds, training, non-training, and supplement usage. It also incorporates important information concerning the psychological ramifications of serious “severe” cut dieting. I welcome feedback on any aspect of keto dieting, and if folks are interested, I will outlay my approach which has allowed me to get very lean.
Vain68

Perfect timing bud. I am in on this. I have been cutting for nearly 2 weeks using T-dawg 2.0 and it has been going ok. I am doing one more week and then the real fun begins!! I am going to drop carbds to almost nil not counting PWO and drop calories drastically low and use mag 10. I have been doing three weeks of OVT and I am completing week four this week. After this I will do 2 weeks of NB3 while doing MAg-10 and 4 days of HIIT sprinting at 6 in the morning in frigid -20 to -25 canadian winter weather. After this I will be going back to T-dawg 2.o if needed and finishing up 4 more weeks of OVT phase 2. Not sure if this is the kind of info you were looking for but I am definetly in for the support.
:slight_smile: Groove

I would like to see your program Vain, always interested in new or different ideas

Glad to see some initial interest
I have written my program in word and will post or welcome e-mails and I will attach. [E-mail exchange not allowed on forum - MOD]

But as for the forum:
the Advanced Cyclical is much more comprehensive:
First, its got different strateiges based on starting body fat levels.
This will determine the frequence and intensity of carb-ups, which are basically the same as refeeds.

Also I would like to firmly state that IMO, post-workout carbs are unnecessary…I find they do NOT affect loss of LBM in anyway…I think people are “psychologically scared” from loss of pump than anything else. I advocate a much more longer period of time in ketosis or shall we say, mild ketosis, esp. if starting bf is much higher.

I also have what I consider to be the supplements of choice, and of course, there aren’t many, go figure.

Good quality protein
Maybe an ECA stack (although I find that you really don’t need one)
Fish Oil
Diuretics
ALA
Yohimbe w/Saw P.

I would state that usage and dosages of these are of particular importance to.
I find that decreasing ALA actually helps, as its insulin sensitizing effects are not Necessarily site specific.

Well got to run, but lets keep this bad boy going

Vain

Vain, I may choose to lurk, but this is going to be one interesting thread. Now, I’ve got to go pull out my BO book and look up Duchaine’s approach. Can’t remember if it’s very much different from Lyle MacDonal’s Cyclical Ketogenic Diet (CKD).

Would you be willing to post numbers for us? Your maintenance calories, BF% starting, daily carb intake in grams and the amount of carbs you take in on a refeed.

I understand why you’re using the Yohimbe, but my understanding of Saw Palmetto is that it is for prostrate health. I guess you’re using it to impact ketogenic dieting on a hormonal level?

I just wanted to second something you said: When I finally converted to ultra-low carbs (<30g/day) I stopped taking my PWO drink. I have not experienced a loss of LBM. In fact, lately BW has been staying roughly the the same (or should I say going down more slowly) but I am continuing to see improvements in body composition and BF numbers.

Looking forward to a great thread and further discussion.

Been on a CKD for about 6 weeks now. So far down a about 18lbs. of water and fat. Haven’t taken any caliper readings yet but I doubt I’ve lost any muscle as I’ve been using MAG-10 throughout. Will finish in about 12 days when I leave for my cruise to Aruba! Yesterday was my last refeed and will go straigt Keto until I leave for my trip.

My calories have been around 1500 a day. Have been using 6 grams EPA/DHA, Mag-10 t2pro and MD6 throughout. The fat has just melted off. I’m at 5’8 and 161lbs. right now not sure of BF% but I can clearly see my abs. I’d been bulking for about 6 months before I started to cut. It’s amazing how much better I feel when I’m lean and cut.

Dude, i am totally interested, i loved Bodyopus. By the way what do you guys think of steroid use while on the diet to help prevent LBM loss from the cortisol rise?

Tampa
I’ll start with numbers…my diet calories are usually around 2000…i sometimes will dip into the 1800 range with advanced cardio, but then hunger pangs usually get intense…I am pretty lean now (~7%)and I wanted to state (as per another responder) that I feel much better lean, …I am at the point where I have bulked and its great being big, but I think the true mark of dedication is leaness only b/c you have to tweek so many factors and battle teh good fight against nature.

The reason for Saw:
There is some evidence to suggest it antagonizes the A-1 receptors which are another subtype variation of the A-2’s…in addition, it may fight against the effects of estrogenic substrates which may be partly to blame for trouble fat areas on men.

Again, I hope all enjoy…I have a detailed guide of my numbers etc., but it would be too lengthy to post here. I will be happy to address any aspect of the protocol.

Oh and by the way, this approach is very similar to Lyle’s approach…its just a major modification with new evidence…longer time periods in ketosis (maybe not at 30g) followed by “uncontrolled” Cho refeeds (i’ll explain)…The refeed is no good unless you have been severely dieting and are already at fairly low levels of body fat. The classic Minnesota experiments show that BMR does not go down appreciably until later in semi-starvation phases.

Oh, so much I could write now but I have to work.
anyway, I am looking forward to discussion
Vain

I’d love to see your program, Vain68. I’m trying to cut without androgens, so I need all the information I can get.

I will be keeping an eye on this one as well. I cannot speak for others, but personally I find that post-workout carbs are not necessary. I’ve been w/o them for a long time while on less than 50 g/day, and I have suffered no losses in performance or lean body mass. I should point out that I do use a large amount of glutamine to replace the carbs along w. my whey protein post-workout, and I do consume BCAA/glutamine before and during workouts. Smart fat intake is high as well…I shoot for 10 g./meal from fish, Udo’s, CLA, flax and olive.

I too have gone extended periods without refeeds on a couple different occasions and did fine, but the last time I did this I was using Surge post-workout and daily carbs were between 70-100 g/day. I would personally rather go without them. It’s strange how I could literally go months without any appreciable amount of carbs, but I simply cannot seem to control my refeeds. It’s something chemical going on with me as I will literally eat myself into an insulin-induced coma. This very thing happened to me over the weekend.

Teddy
just noticed your reply on the pound and you stating that you can’t control your refeeds…I might suggest that if that is the case then your refeeds are PERFECT.
That is the sign that they are necessary…during a refeed you should not be worried about control, just make sure the refeed is good clean stuff (i.e., low fat, HIGH GI)…your physique will seemingly be ruined after uncontrolled refeeds and its VERY*** psychologically hard to accept…battle this, return to your semi-starvation cut diet for 3-4 days and I guran-damn-tee you’ll end up with LESS** subcutaeous and a lower bffat
Pizzeace

vain

I agree that PWO carbs are not needed on a CKD. I find no difference when I use PWO carbs in terms of lbm preservation, but it does slow down my fat loss. In addition, PWO carbs just make me crave more carbs and screws with my energy levels, It’s much easier to avoid them altogether. As for refeeds, I do them more for psychological reasons than anything else. I start out with refeeds every second sunday and as I get closer to my goal, I cheat every sunday afternoon. I actually feel much better when I live this way all the time. I just finished 8 weeks of massive style eating to bulk up. I hate the feeling of being bloated and full all the time. I’m actually really happy to be keto dieting again, it’s no sacrifice at all for me.

I’m in a little different situation than most of you. I’m doing the Anabolic Diet from Dr, DiPasquale, but I’m presently using it to gain weight. I don’t bother to count calories, I just eat as much as I want with no added carbs other than those found in minute amounts in certain nuts, cheeses, romaine lettuce, cream etc. To give you an example of what I mean, I’m going through an entire 1L bottle of olive oil per week, one bottle of fish oils, 1/2 bottle of flax oil, a few pounds of cheese, all of my protein is coming from whole eggs, red meat and salmon. I make my protein shakes using cream as a base. I do make sure to get about 2xbodyweight/protein per day. On weekends, eat all the carbs I can get my hands on including junk food. I make sure I’m putting on about 2lbs.per week and not much more. I’m getting my BF measured at the University next week, and as long as my BF stays below 12% or so, I’ll keep bulking at this rate. I don’t want to go too high with the BF because I’ll end up losing too much lean mass when I want to lean out, according to Dr. DiPasquale. I have no problem eating enough calories during the week, which I heard most people have a problem with when trying to gain on a Keto diet.

To Magnus, I would always get bloated when I bulked using carbs such as Massive Eating but with the Anabolic Diet I eat all the fat and protein I want. I feel satisfied without that bloated, get-me-to-couch feeling.

Quantam.
I have detailed this in a keto guide.
I hope to publish this on T-mag but in the mean time…go to www.geocities.com/mrvain68
Get my email and email me
I’ll send you a copy
Vain

An interesting thread and timely too.
I have just started my second keto diet, in fact this is my second day.
On my first I went from 120kg at 6 foot, to 83kg in a 3 month period. I was in ketosis all this time, and towards the end cut my cals ridiculously low to compensate for my ever shrinking metabolism.
As you would expect with such a drastic weight loss, I also lost a tone of muscle along with the fat.
I had 18 inch arms at the beginning and 14 inch arms at the end when I finished in Nov 02. My dumbbell bench had dropped from 48kg 5RM to 22kg 5RM.
I should point out I am steroid free.
It is only now that my strength levels are back where they once were. Though my arms are now only 16 inch even though my poundages are the same as my pre-diet.
My weight was as of yesterday 102.6kg.
My plan this time was to try and minimise the muscle loss I experienced last time, and play around with the number of days I ate protein only followed by a carbup day.
To start I will go 3 days on, 1 off.
My cals on the on days will range between 1500 ? 2000. On the off day 3500 ? 4000.
I havn’t been keeping a record but now I will, so that I can post the figures to the thread.
I also own Lyles book, and shall be re-reading it again to brush up.
That?s all for now, but if the thread is still around in a week, I shall post my cal/ protein, carb, fat/ and weight loss stats.

Skin
Trying using MCT’s in moderate quanties as well as avoiding cutting calories too low…if anything up the cardio a tad…I have lost minimal muscle due to keto (type) dieting…keep in mind some of your girth may be due to water loss inside (and outside) the muscle.
Peace
Vain

To Loopfitt: Ya, I’ll probably try the anablolic diet next time I start a mass gaining period. I think I would function much better on it than massive eating.

Vain,
if your going hardcore keto, meaning no surge post-workout, then how much, if any, cardio do you perform a week and when?

I would imagine if I cut my pwo carbs that I also could and probably should drop a good amount of my running and HIIT.

Pooh
Yeah, my cardio is somwhat moderate…not intense…I’ll usually do 20mins sessions…some more running regular (moderate jog) or i’ll do mixed sprints for twenty…i will usually do this at least 4 out of the 7 days of the week
too much cardio on an empty stomach is a recipe for not only LBM loss, but hunger pangs and resultant binges.
Vain