Keto, SKD and TKD with Powerlifting

That’s a very good question. I have no idea why the leucine levels are higher, I’m not an expert by any stretch

It’s important to note that they were found to be higher in people who were fat adapted, not guys in a clinical study who were put on keto so I’d be less inclined to think that it came from catabolism but anything is possible.

I suspect you might be right with your suggestion of synthesis being lower, but then again leucine is the ‘signal switch’ for protein synthesis to occur so you’d assume higher blood levels would make someone more anabolic.

Maybe fat adapted athletes would potentially be more anabolic and there’s another unkown catabolic mechanism at play counteracting it… of course we can only talk shit and speculate. Maybe it’s gluconeogenesis tearing down an otherwise more anabolic metabolism - who knows

If I had to guess I would say that I could be 10kg (22lb) heavier if I chose do carbs correctly and train the same way. Half of that would be water though, and I’ve found that the older I get the less fond I am of holding any :wink:

I was gonna back out of this dialogue, but I wanted to clarify that the 100mi western states ultra marathon IS IN ITSELF the world event for the sport of ultra running. other events that are longer or more extreme are consider exhibition events or publicity stunts like Badwater. for the prestige of the title of the top ultra runner in the world, one MUST win Western States. races all over the world qualify someone to be able to compete in WS100mi, not the other way around.

The Ketogenic Diet is misunderstood.

There a plethora of misinformation that continues to be spread on it.

madhatmat provided a great research article that was just published on it.

Here’s some additional information…

Energy Systems

The body has three Energy Systems.

  1. Phosphagen System: This system involves primarily Strength and Power Sports in which movements last around 10 seconds but no longer than 30 seconds. (Powerlifting, Olympic Lifting, Sprints, Shott Putt, etc.)

ATP is the primary fuel source, not Glucose. Athletes in these sport function just as well on a Ketogenic Diet as the Traditional Western Diet.

  1. Glycolytic System: This system involve fair high intensity, for moderate periods (Basketball,Soccer, etc).

Glucose is the primary fuel for these sports. Fairly high carbohydrate intake is needed.

  1. Oxidative System: Endurance sports that involve fairly low intensity levels for extended period of time compose this group. (5k, 10k, Marathon Runner, etc)

The primary source of fuel for Endurance Sports is fat. High carbohydrates diets are not necessary for this group.

Thus, there is only one group that really needs a high carbohydrate diet, Glycolytic Athletes.

Chris’ Post

  1. The Keto Diet works find for Phosphagen and Oxidative Athletes, once adaptation occurs.

  2. Yes, cutting out any macro group decreases calories, body weight.

  3. You can lose weight on any diet that restricts calories. The infamous “Twinkie Diet” proved that point. A nutritionist at a college, eating Twinkies and other garbage lost 27 lbs by decreasing his calorie intake.

  4. You can gain weight on a Keto Diet by primarily increasing fat intake and slightly increasing protein intake. I did just that.

  5. A Keto Diet dose not decrease strength or energy, once adaptation occurs.

  6. Chalk makes a good point, “…Most people don’t use more than 40g carbs during even the most ball busting workout…”

You be amazed at the amount of glucose you Don’t use in training, especially for sports like Powerlifting.

  1. Research and empirical data have demonstrated that Ketogenic Diets work for Phosphagen and Oxidative Energy athletes.

The key to understanding the Ketogenic Diet require examining the research and practical experience.

I am on a Ketogenic Diet due to a Metabolic Condition. I am a Powerlifter. There was an initial learning curve where my lift decreased. Once I gain some personal experience with the Keto Diet, my lifts went back up.

I enjoy the Ketogenic Diet. However, I do not recommend it due to how restrictive it is. That because the majority of individuals don’t have the dedication to maintain it.

What I do recommend is…

Intermittent Fasting

Intermittent Fasting elicits many of the same effects as the Ketogenic Diet.

  1. Fasting for 12 hour plus, puts you into Ketosis.

  2. “Metabolic Flexibility”: Fasting enable the body to become more efficient at using fat/ketones and glucose.

  3. Skipping A Meal: The beauty of Intermittent Fasting is how easy it is. No food prep. No calories to count. Just skip let’s say breakfast, then eat as you normally do.

Kenny Croxdale

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I suppose most of the other points are debatable, but this one right here is enough to make me never want to try keto and not recommend it for anyone. You can lose weight on a diet that includes carbs and will have minimal effects on strength, in fact you could potentially get stronger while cutting although the odds are kind of against you. So if you can expect significantly lower levels of strength and energy, the question is WHY? Why keto? And if you decide to stay on keto long enough to adapt and even bulk and get stronger, why would you choose not to eat carbs? It just doesn’t make sense to me. Just because it can be done and you might eventually have results similar to someone on a regular diet doesn’t mean that it’s a good idea.

You’re right about being able to get damn close to as cut with a small amount of carbs. From a physique and strength standpoint starting keto can be a frustrating experience. The reasons I love it when dialed in are:

No extreme hunger issues
Much clearer thinking and sense of well being (this is my biggest perceived benefit TBH)
I prefer the food choices
Bloodwork goes from woeful to stellar
Drier overall look

Getting back to what we were discussing earlier about mechanisms, keto can be some trippy shit. When adapted for a long period and eating with family at Xmas etc, the binge actually flattens me out the next day severely. You’d think throwing a bunch of carbs might give a nice pump once depleted, but it’s the opposite (for me). I know digestive enzymes down regulate, but that doesn’t explain losing the ‘keto pump’ which occurs once you get it all happening.

Another forum member was recently talking about how fats and carbs affect muscle fullness and I want to pick his brain a bit because it’s something that I’ve been experiencing with different types of (keto) food.

cheers

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For me it’s just really hard mentally to cut on a regular diet. Keto has been the most successful to fat loss in my life so far. As to another why, just because I’m curious and I like experimenting.

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[quote=“chris_ottawa, post:44, topic:230655”]
I suppose most of the other points are debatable, but this one right here is enough to make me never want to try keto and not recommend it for anyone. [/quote]

Lack of Knowledge

Chris, your replies indicate two things.

  1. You have not invested enough research time into the Ketogenic Diet.

  2. You have no practical “Real World” experience with Ketogenic Diets.

Essentially, your coaching a sport that you’ve never played or know much about.

It is impossible for you to understand much about Ketogenic Diets for those two reasons.

Losing Weight

  1. Individual that maintain a fairly intense, well written training program, lose body fat as well as some muscle mass.

Research indicates that individual in this categories weight loss is approximately 75 - 80% body fat and 20 - 25% muscle mass.

The decrease in muscle mass produces a decrease in strength. That is why there are Weight Classes in certain sports.

  1. Overweight individual new to an exercise program can and do increase muscle mass while decreasing body fat.

[/quote]So if you can expect significantly lower levels of strength and energy, the question is [/quote]

NO Decrease In Strength

Research has demonstrated there is NO decrease in strength on the Ketogenic Diet, once adaptation occurs.

Thus your statement about strength loss is incorrect.

Chalk provide you with a list of some of the reason for a Ketogenic Diet.

You’d need to interview each individual to obtain the reason why each individuals chose Keto.

I provide mine. Chalk provide his.

It doesn’t make sense to you due to your lack of knowledge. Until that occurs, it will never make sense to you.

The only person that can help this make sense to you at this point is you, by doing some homework.

Based on your replies, investing research time and trying something like this isn’t something you are interested in doing.

Kenny Croxdale

CKD

Bodyopus (as Chalk mentioned) and The Anabolic Diet go into CKD. I have both books.
They provide the same protocol.

The Anabolic Diet
file:///C:/Users/Admin/Downloads/Anabolic%20Diet%20(1).pdf

Click on the link above for a free copy of The Anabolic Diet.

Dr Jake Wilson’s Research

Wilson’s research (University of Tampa Human Performance Lab) found that the CDK is not optimal. Wilson’s research found the following.

  1. Two days of carbohydrate loading took you out of ketosis. It then took around 4 days to get back into ketosis.

Thus, if you carbohydrate load on Saturday and Sunday, you won’t get back into ketosis until Thursday or Friday. You end up with spending one to two days a week in ketosis.

  1. Wilson found body fat increased with CKD.

The Effects of Ketogenic Dieting on Body Composition, Strength, Power, and Hormonal Profiles in Resistance Training Males.

madhatmat provide the research abstract on this. I have the complete article.

A couple of interesting note on this are…

  1. Strength was maintained and/or increased on the Ketogenic Diet.

  2. Once Keto Adaptation occurred, body hydration levels were restored to normal.

Now here is the really interesting part the research…

Carbohydrate Loading

Prior to testing, the athletes carbohydrate loaded the week before the test.

  1. This produced Super-Hydration.

There is a ying/yang effect with hydration.

A decrease in hydration decrease performance.

An increase in hydration increases performance.

These are my finding based on research and personal experience with myself and in coaching other.

Super-Hydration Examples:

a) Creatine: One of the reason it is so effective is “Cell Voluminization”; muscle cells are Super-Hydrated.

b) Steroids: Super-Hydration is one of the characteristics of two anabolic steriods, Dianabol and Anadrol.

c) Carbohydrate Loading: Essentially, Carbohydrate Loading produces Super-Hydration; similar to the other two methods.

  1. Wilson research demonstrated week of Carbohydrate Loading produced an increase in body fat and MUSCLE.

Those were two of the reasons the Keto Diet Group preformed well on the test.

Wilson Research Recommendations

Individuals coming off a Ketogenic Diet, returning to a Traditional Western Diet or higher Carbohydrate Diet need to ease into it. This minimizes body fat gain.

Re-Entry Protocol

  1. “1g/kg carbohydrate for 2 days”

  2. t"hen 2g/kg carbohydrate for the next 2 days"

  3. “Finally 3g/kg carbohydrate for the last 2 days”

Kenny Croxdale

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Perhaps, but is strength development and hypertrophy negatively affected by keto? Most likely. And you still haven’t explained why you would want to stay on keto once you are done cutting. What’s wrong with carbs?

That’s the one thing we agree on so far. I strongly recommend against anyone that is concerned with strength and muscle mass using a keto diet. If fat loss is the main objective then it’s a somewhat reasonable approach, but not the best either.

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If your main concern at the moment is losing body fat then what you are doing is not totally unreasonable, but powerlifting is basically on the back burner for now. I guess you can be the guinea pig, let us know how it goes.

What kind of progress have you made on keto? What is your best meet total and at what body weight?

[quote=“chris_ottawa, post:49, topic:230655”]
Perhaps, but is strength development and hypertrophy negatively affected by keto? [/quote]

As I have stated, Strength is NOT negatively affected by the Keto Diet, providing you correctly follow it. Research and empirical data have demonstrated that.

That statement indicates you are guessing and don’t know. This takes us back to your lack of knowledge. Guessing = Not knowing.

I provide you with why I am on the Keto Diet. Chalk provide you with some reasons.

There nothing wrong with the right carbohydrates.

Yes, I realize that you have chose not to learn.

Why would anyone chose to talk about something that no knowledge or personal experience with?

Kenny Croxdale

[quote=“chris_ottawa, post:51, topic:230655”]
What kind of progress have you made on keto? What is your best meet total and at what body weight?[/quote]

Squat: 255 kg/562 lbs

Bench Press: 175 kg/375 lbs

Deadlift: 280 kg/617 lbs

Body Weight: 208 lbs

You can find them posted online.

Degree in Exercise Science

Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist, NSCA. (High School, College and Pro Strength Coaches usually have this Certification).

Former International Powerlifting Referee

Advisory Board: New Mexico Strength and Conditioning Association.

Promoter/Director: Albuquerque Strength and Conditioning Clinic, 2012 to Present.

Former Technical Powerlifting Rules, Chair.

Author of four strength training articles for Powerlifting USA.

Commercial Fitness Equipment Sale Rep.

Kenny Croxdale

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KennyCrox, what are your thoughts on the CKD protocol such as the one found on Reddit.com/r/ketogains? Their carb loading protocol indicates 4.5 grams of carbs for carb loading period for about a 24-36 hour period along with lots of what they call “depletion” workouts. This is coming from Lyle McDonald’s protocol originally I think. I’m on my first week of doing this after about 6 weeks of strict keto. I am attempting to see how mmake body reacts to the carbs in terms of body composition and endurance/strength in my workouts. Here is what I do now, training and diet, I rotate every 6 weeks from deficit in calories to excess in calories, basicall cut to bulk.

Sunday- rest
Monday - powerlifting, squat day
Tuesday - Brazilian jiu jitsu ~1-1.5 hours
Wednesday - powerlifting, bench day
Thursday ~ BJJ
Friday - powerlifting, deadlift day
Saturday - BJJ

Friday around noon through Wednesday evening standard keto
Wednesday evening to Thursday evening - consume about 400-600 carbs along with plenty of protein and small amount of fat.
Thursday to Friday around noon fast.

I track what I eat closely so I ensure enough calories to recover from all my activity and also make sure I sleep enough. I have a job where I sit most of the day so that helps recovery but sucks for hip flexibility.

I know this is a lot and the BJJ doesn’t help with muscle gain, but works wonders for fat loss and trunk stability. It has actually helped all my lifts since starting it.

Meet total at ~190 lbs was 340/220/450 so 1010lbs, never said I was that strong. 1.78x, 1.15x, and 2.31x body weight for my lifts.

About two months later in he gym I was about 190 and did 370/235/460 so 1065 and I was in a heavy cycle of lifting. 1.94x, 1.23x, and 2.42x body weight so some good gains here. This was on a standard higher carb diet. Basically maintaining calories.

After 6 weeks of keto, also in another heavy cycle now, my weight is 177 with about a 4% body fat loss(tested using calipers) last lifts were 340/225/440 so 1005lbs. 1.92x, 1.27x, 2.48x. So relative to my body weight I have actually made significant gains. I hadn’t even thought this through so much. But this looks like a good argument for keto. In my situation though I am only 2.5 years into powerlifting so I am still a beginner in my eyes. That may have an effect on my totals relative to body weight.

As a powerlifter, you need carbs. Keto sucks ass and it has been proven significantly to be bullshit. Fuck what Lyle McDonald says. I’ve come to the conclusion as a former keto/ckd dieter that it just doesnt work.
That being said, I will use carbs, but not a ton.
I friggin love my Fruity Pebbles and I could care less about being stupidly chiseled at 3% fat. I’ve been there and it sucks.

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Can you expand on why it didn’t work for you? What was your goal and protocol with skd or CKD?

I had a bodybuilding show in 2012. I was lean, but as lean as I wanted to be. The following contest, I did a steady stream of carbs as my source of energy. I looked way better and for some reason, wasnt as sore training 6 days a week. Now that I am retired from powerlifting and attempted the same thing a while back, it was a very dumb thing to do in my case. I had no energy and was lethargic, regardless of whether I was in ketosis or not. I just felt like complete shit. As soon as I started carbs back in, my entire outlook was better.

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ok cool

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Do you have any data to suggest that gains in strength and hypertrophy are not negatively affected by keto? “Science and Principles of Strength Training” by Mike Israetel, James Hoffmann, and Chad Wesley Smith mentions that a diet with insufficient carbs will have a negative effect on recovery, both because glycogen levels will be low and low blood sugar affects CNS function. That’s why I say “Most likely”, because there is evidence to support my position and none that I am aware of to support yours.

Because it’s obviously bullshit. Do I have to smoke crystal meth and crack before I can tell my kids not to? Or what about self-mutilation, I hear that’s popular these days.

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