WSTRAINER: I just wanted to let everybody in on my diet results and throw in some ideas that relate to ketogenic diets and working out. On January 2nd, 2002, I weighed 267 pounds with a 44 inch waist and 17.5 inch arms. On March 8th, 2002, I weighed 214 pounds with a 37 inch waist and 17 inch arms. How you ask? Easy! When people do a Ketogenic diet they usually do it in a cyclic fashion, meaning 5 days no carbs, 2 days carbs. If done in this manner, we assume you will hit ketosis on Tuesday sometime, do a depletion workout Friday afternoon and gorg on carbs for 2 days. I find that it is not economical to spend time and money on reaching Ketosis for a period of 2-3 days. I say once you have hit Ketosis stay there for at least 2 weeks straight. The more time in Ketosis obviously the more fat you will lose. Only have carb up days when absolutely necessary. This is exactly what I have been doing since Jan 2/02 and it has helped me lose 53 pounds. A common mistake people make is to consume too much protein, which is counter-productive as the body can easily convert it to an energy source. On this diet fat is your best friend.
As far as training goes, I only worked out when I felt like it, if I felt worn out I wouldn’t train. Aerobics are definately out. Since our muscles are composed of more fast twitched fibres then slow twitched fibres we need to concentrate on loading enough tension to the high threshold muscle fibres. Due to our low carb diet, strength will be impaired because the type 2 fibres need glucose and glucogen as an ATP substance. One of the biggest complaints about this diet is that people lose alot of muscle, probably because they do alot of aerobics or high rep sets that don’t put enough tension on the type 2 fibres. So the type 2 fibres probably atrophy. A better way would be to use lower reps higher weight sets, however better than that would be to use pure eccentrics. Eccentrics have been shown to stimulate the type 2 fibres before the type 1, not following the size principle. For eccentrics use a weight that is approx. 110% of 1RM, as opposed to using a really heavy weight approx. 120-130% 1RM. Your brain shuts down most of the muscle response, probably because of a signal of immenent muscle injury. Also explosive isometrics(see SUPERTRAINING). This can also help activate type 2 fibres preferentially. The last tip concerns the use of an electrical muscular stimulation machine. People use this during inactivity to prevent muscle loss and strength, so why not use it why we are dieting? Anyways summer is coming up and I hope my tips help you achieve your goals.
Also,creatine should definetely be a part of a keto diet.Some say its a waste without the carbs,but while dieting ill take anything that will give me an advantage.For inatance,it causes cell swelling, which makes us more stronger and helps us burn more calories.Im sure we dont have to review the benefits of creatine,but just because theres a few studies that show it works better with carbs doesnt mean it doesnt work without carbs.
First of all, thanks for the info. Real life results are always nice to hear about and learn from. Ideas from your experience seem to mirror some of my recent thoughts on training while on ketogenic diet. I also would recommend creatine supplementation to support heavy low volume weight lifting. Since glycogen is depleted, higher volume sets (5+ reps are not optimal). It is better to stay within the bounds of the creatine-phosphate system. As for no cardio, I agree that it does nothing to train the muscles or make you stronger, but it keeps insulin sensitiviy up and it helps you burn a ton of calories. My only recommendation for cardio on a ketogenic diet would be to stay below lactate/anaerobic threshold and focus on moderate intensity work.
Unbelievable post…I echo everything you said. Carb up is not at all necessary as i have found, nor does it have any real benefit…during a diet, we want to cut, not worry about anabolism…we can save that for lean gain. I do not believe strength is that impaired, as I have maintained my maximal lifts during this time. I also believe that the fat spills out faster in keto. I use the now discontinued line of met-rx products while on keto, and find they work fabulously. A long missed secret to this diet, is fat, and more specifically MCT fat. People overlook this and are scared of fat…they don’t seem to see its caloric balance and not macronutrient ratio when cutting…plus, i do believe keto can spare some lean mass, as it seems to shut the body out of continual bouts of glucogenesis as carbs are introduced and then out. Plus ketones are sedative and keep hunger at bay.
I think keto’s are generally misunderstood, but i realize they don’t work for everyone. I am convinced of the utility of HMB and aminos on this diet, and believe strenght training should be maintened…i also believe that by training hard core on this diet, and lift hard (intensity not volume) you prime yourself for an anabolic burst once you resume refeeding. Of course, you must keep a hypocaloric balance while on keto, and also get your body fat down as low as you are comfortable with, until you think or can see/smell/feel that muscle is the primary source of nutrient making up the energy deficit.
We should start a keto forum for all those that use it, and are true believers in it to get shredded, while sparing lean mass (and by shredded, i mean fat, not just water)
forgive me all would-be flamers; but this question really needs to be asked. i’ve searched this site up and down and never found a definitive answer to the question “what is a ketogenic diet?” people here throw around that term very nonchalantly, but for newbies like myself its a bit confusing. i searched the www and found a bunch of stuff, but as its been since i first found tmag, id prefer the tmag definition.
I too have used HMb successfully during a keto diet(4 grms a day),but not during this cycle.THis time i decided to use Finasol,20 mg d-bol a day and winstrol for the first 30 days,Ill repeat this cycle again except for 60days of winstrol around the middle of March.
First great job WSTrainer, very good results. Now about the carb up. If you are wrking infrequently w/o cardio then a carb up is probably not as neccsary, however, ifsticking to a regimented routine a carb up of some sort is neccesary. It does not ahve to be 48 hrs,it can be 36. It can be every 3rd 4th or 7th day.It could be one meal even of 50-70 grams cho(thats more extreme). the reasons behind this are taht the increased carb intake increases muscle glycogen for energy and also helps with insulin sensetivity a bit. Also it can help neural function. Most importantly perhaps it help stimulate leptin a powerful hormone involved in fat loss. One more benefit is the stimulation of beta -3 antagonists or brown adipose tissue(thermogenic fat tissue) This actually helps keep fat loss rolling or stimulates more to be burned…So don’t rule out your carbs totally…Mike
Three kinds of ketogenic diet:
Atkins - Low carb (under 50 g) per day for a long period of time. 12*bodyweight for calories, Protein = 1 gram/lb of bw, Fat calories are the remaining.
CKD (Cyclic Ketogenic Diet) - AKA Body Opus, Anabolic Diet, Same as above but once a week for 24-48 hours you carb up. 16*bw 70% carbs, 20% protein, 10% fat
TKD (Targeted Ketogenic Diet) - More similar to Atkins style because there is no refeed days, but you take in more carbs (less than 100 g) around workout time.
Do a google search.
I, like most other people thinking about or engaging in this diet, appreciate your anecdotal evidence.
For those that have not attempted this diet, if you look back at product reviews in Tmag you will see that Lyle McDonald’s “The Ketogenic Diet” got very good marks from Brock Strasser, no less. Tmag and Lyle aren’t quite close, so that’s quite impressive.
I personally don’t have a problem refeeding for 36 hours following 5.5 days low carb (about 3 in ketosis). Based on my interpretation of the latest research it is quite necessary to refeed that often. A) Because the body will start to become insulin resistant after a longer period without large insulin releases, leading to the rebound effect when returning a normal carb diet. B) Leptin.
What type of post workout nutrition did you use? I have shared these thoughts for some time(with the exception of the idea about cardio) but I don’t tolerate keto diets very well so I didn’t engage in them. But I need to drop some weight and I’d like to give this idea a go. Thanks for the help.
Regarding the different kind of keto diets, Natural Hormonal Enhancement should be mentioned. (See book with the same title by Rob Faigin). This diet is low carbohydrate, (below 20 grams), rotated with high carb meals twice a week. Low carb for three days ending with two high carb meals then low carb for four days ending with two high carb meals. The low carb meals cause release of testosterone while the high carb meals cause the release of HGH. Since the high carb meals only occurr twice during the week, a person stays in ketosis.
As far as I knew the amount of leptin expressed by adipocytes is primarily correlated with the lipid content of the cells…as such, I would be interested to see where you learned that CHO might affect the leptin response. I guess one indirect way would be that the insulin of a CHO load would stimulate some fat storage, thereby potentiating a greater release of leptin, but wouldn’t that be working backwards?
I am interested man…let me know
I am glad you got good results WSTrainer but there are two things I would like to point out. For starters I do agree that a low carb diet does work best for weight loss. Now my problems. For starters next time you tell someone of such great results please add the fact that you use d-bol and other substances that aid in retaining muscle. I think that was some key advice you left out in your first post. Second of all as far as the training goes I have to disagree with the high weight low rep training while on a diet like that. The reason is I think I read a while ago that you should not train with heavy weights and low reps because being on a low carb diet depletes your body of water/fluids. I think I recall the person saying that fluid around joints are also depleted, leaving individuals more likely to injure themselves. I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS TRUE. Just something I think I read and am trying to recall. I would like to here some feedback from some of the t-mag staff or true experts. Anyways I am really glad to here of your success keep up the good work and please keep us informed of upcoming results.
I left out the “supplement” side out because the post was getting rather long.But as a side note to why i decided to juice it.In Jan 99,I started a keto diet weighing 257 with a 45" waist and 18.5"arms,by May 1st,I weighed 188 with a 33"waist and 15"arms.During this diet cycle i only used yohimbe half way thru ,no ephedrine,juice.As you can amaging i lost a lot of size and strength,people i grew up with thought i was on crack.Anyways ive manage to stay pretty lean around the 220 mark,but in May of 2001,i lost my job as a strength coach at the university of toronto,and had a wedding planned for Aug 2001,so basically from May to Sept i can swear i got drunk and partied ever day.This is why i gained 40+pounds.Since i had to train people for money i had to lose fat as fast as possible.Ive done this diet with and without juice,believe me i would never do it without again.
sorry all, ive just (sorta) educated myself on this. my (hopefully last) question is this: as a newbie to this whole scene, i always thought fat was bad, very very bad. now according to this diet, i should consume roughly 200g fat daily?? trace carbs, body weight protein? won’t this simply make someone fatter? sorry about the confusion, im slow
I think 2 weeks in ketosis is fine if you have a ton of lard to lose. But if you are trying to get from 8% to 5% then you need to take things a little more slowly and carefully or else you will lose quite a bit of muscle in the process.
I dont recall seeing too many people with 5-8%bodyfat,I train people all day I should know.It would be interesting to see what others in the forum think is the average %b.f for most serious people training in the gym.As far as only training heavy on a diet goes,i dont beleive this either.We know that there is a “maximal effort method”“submaximal effort method"and a"dynamic effort method”.SO we have three different training strategies that are available depending on our goals and how we feel.I think the most important goal as far as dieting goes is too retain as much muscle as possible.
Did you use Surge at all during this time?
Hey Vain…sorry I do not have the reference right now, I saw it in a muscle media(I know I know) article and checked it out. I will at least try and see if I could get you the month of the issue w that reference in it. I have also read some articles elsewhere…but I do not ahve references. Not every article I ahve seen has been about CHO though, you are right. I have seen 1 or 2 that talk about soley increasing K cals. Doing thsi through carbs make more sense for some of the othr reasons I listed above.It would be best to keep fat intake low on those days though, to avoid fat storage from the insulin spike. It would also be easier to eat above maintainance kcals from CHO due to fats effect on saiety levels . Aldo an extreme increase in protein would probably be converted over to glucose anyway. Sorry, not the scientific refrences you wanted…but I hope it made some sense…I will look for those refrences for you…Mike
wstrainer - I live out in the GTA and was wondering which campus you are at???
But anyway, since you obviously know your shit I wanted some advice on some things. My stats: 21 yrs old, 5*9 220lbs., BF 20-23%. ASSUME that my idea of nutrition is shit, i know nothing and eat pizza, burgers and junk all day (this is just an assumption, I actually know a good chunk of T-MAG info) How much Protein (name types of food) Fat (fish oil, flax in the form of pills) and carbs should i consume daily??? I’m guessing my lean mass is about 180 lbs so how many calories should i be getting if i want to lose 10-15% BF? you can reach me through hotmail… teddybeartank and you know the rest. Thanks to all of you who can help me shed some unwanted FAT