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Keto Diet Questions


#1

I've been doing a ketogenic diet now (for fat loss) for 7 weeks and I've lost about 12 lbs, down from 200 to 188 lbs. Based on the mirror, I'm close to the 10 % mark.

My progress has stalled and this is my first time on the keto diet, so I have some questions for those T-Nation members who have done the keto diet with success.

1) What type of dietary progressions do you use on the keto diet, once progress has stalled? lower calories? no refeeds?

2) When progress stalls, do you prescribe going with a carb cycling approach or another dietary regiment?

3) Is it suggested to do low intensity or high intensity cardio during the keto diet?

4) What is the prescribed course of dietary action, once you finish up the keto diet? And can you expect to gain fat once you start re-introducing carbs into your diet?

Thanks


#2

1) Depending on your calories currently and the amount of exercise I would first look to create a larger deficit. This can by eating less, doing more or both. As a side note, I personally found that a weekly refeed kept my metabolism burning with no fatloss speed bumps.

2) When progress stalls on a keto, I would see above. Again, for me, a refeed at least weekly is optimal. This is why I now favor diets with some sort of daily or at least weekly cycle to them. Like carb cycling or CKDs.

3) It is recommended to do low intensity cardio while on a keto diet. I stick to low intensity myself, but I wouldn't be shocked if high intensity cardio wasn't as catabolic as people make it seem.

4) I've personally came off of long duration keto'ing twice. Both times I kept my calories the same, but substituted some of the fats for carbs. Never had a problem. As long as your calories are the same, you shouldn't add any fat. You may however, retian some water and the scale will climb because of the glycogen/water your body is now holding. Not a problem, its not fat.


#3

Have a cheat day. :slightly_smiling:


#4

elusive,

I know you are an expert in respect to the keto diet and re-feeds.

I'm naturally an endo-meso, I've been fat my entire life. But I pack on muscle easily. but gain alot of fat in the process.

I've been doing LI cardio before this keto diet, I actually did a low carb diet (50 g or less) earlier. I primarily did cardio 2X a day (for 40-60 min.), once in the morning and once in post workout, in the forms of incline walking & cross country trainer & biking... lifted heavy.

I have found low intensity cardio is not helping at this point, where I'm at 189 lbs, originally being 225 lbs. when I first started dieting.

Now I do heavy lifting, with 2 lactic acid training sessions and I do less low intensity, and some high intensity in the form of sprinting or swimming.

This has helped get me down to 189 lbs, but I'm still not now at 10 %, as all the rows of my abs aren't totally fully visible. I feel another 10 lbs, will put me at 8-10% bf.

Let me ask you

1) Do you still suggest low intensity cardio for me? If so, what types of cardio do you suggest.. walking, cross country, biking, running?

2) Do you still suggest a re-feed? We are two different body types, I know you are more ecto-meso and do well with carbs.

3) Do you suggest I try another dietary approach (carb cycling, etc.) to get rid of the rest of this fat?

4) Any other suggestions to help this stall, other than keeping my cals low... I don't want to do this.. because as it is... I'm lacking cals.

Thanks.


#5

I wouldn't call myself an expert just yet lol.. but heres my opinion on the matter.

1) I always depend on low intensity cardio, no matter how I'm dieting. I find that it helps me because it helps create a larger caloric deficit and I honestly enjoy it. I put my ipod on and zone out. I enjoy that time to myself to listen to music and think. However, like I said before I don't necessarily believe that high intensity cardio is all that bad. Weight lifting is high intensity. Just know that you may be putting your muscle tissue at increased risk (being that anytime you're in a caloric deficit its already in risk). I play basketball while dieting without problems.

2) Yes, I do recommend some sort of refeed or higher calorie day. I don't think body type matters here, plus me being an ecto-meso (as you put it) should be in lesser need of a refeed metabolically than you, a endo-meso. However, I've found that I do need them in order to move things along smoothly. I would start with a safe number and add to it every time. Even if you screw up, its only ONE day. If you stuffed your face all day and binged, you'd most likely only add a pound a fat, if even.

3) I would suggest that you stick to this diet if you feel its the easiest for you to adhere to. I know how you feel. When you don't see immediate results or stall, you start to second guess your decisions. You may have to incorporate refeeds, eat less daily or both. Of course, if you're convinced this isn't the diet for you, theres always other diets.

4) Refeed. Take a whole day off and enjoy yourself. You are going to gain weight, retain water and look bloated. If this is what you decide, understand that its part of the plan and get back on track the next day. It will help your metabolism alot. I wouldn't do this if you feel that it would be hard to resist breaking your diet the following day.


#6

Just finished my re-feed, ate entire large cheese pizza (ordered out) and then later ate 6 Dunkin' Donuts. I barfed after both eating times.

I found the keto diet, eating 0 to 30 grams carbs, with food sources coming from fish, tuna, cheeses, chicken, turkey, eggs, and cottage cheese to be effective for fat loss. I can stay on the diet for a long time, psyciologically, because I get no cravings at all, but my performance starts to decrease while training. I feel the re-feed is necessary, but my body cannot really handle it well, after the extremes of the keto, and the digusting taste/feeling of junk food in my body.

Also doing high intensity training, other than lifting, is essentially impossible. I'm depleted by hard lifting sessions, not enough to sprint, row, or swim.

I'm an athlete by background (wrestler, swimmer, and gymnast), so my plan is now to go low carb, since I've done keto for first 6 months (225 to 200 lbs) and then now for (200 lbs to 189 lbs @ 13 % bf) 8 weeks. I want to get down to 180 lbs @ 10 % bf and start training again.

elusive and others,

1) If I include green veggies and veggies as tomatoes, mushrooms, etc. (no starchy veggie) as my main carb sources during low carb, will it be as effective as ketogenic diet? Should I count the carbs in veggies?

2) Should my training change (lifting aside) if I'm adding more carbs into my diet?

Thanks.


#7

1) You're diet should be just as effective as long as your overall calories were the same as when you were keto'ing. As effective with the cravings? Thats personal, I'm not sure. If you are counting the veggies (meaning you're having veggies as the significant carb source in your diet), then yes, count the carbs.

2) Keep your training the same. You mentioned that you do heavy lifting, thats good. Personally, as I have more carbs in my diet I like to increase the volume of my workout sessions. However, with the amount of carbs you'll be ingesting through non starchy veggies (not that much, you shouldn't worry about any of that.

The refeed you did should have definitly helped you with any metabolism slow down, but personally I've found that I don't get that "feel like shit" feeling if I keep my refeed low fat and high carb. For me, it stokes the metabolism the same as long as the calories were similar.


#8

Thanks, elusive, surprsingly I haven't lost any muscle mass, but I have still a layer of fat on my abs, that needs to come off. I will emphasize the heavy lifting and lactic acid training with increased volume.

carbs should be pretty much green vegs, only... suggest a re-feed?

Add little low intensity post workout and add some energy systems work...


#9

You might try a 24-hour carb up on a Saturday or something, kinda similar methodology to the AD and other cyclic Ketogenic diets. It will help your metabolism and thyroid, etc if you've been on it for a while.

If you decide you are going to, try and do some sort of super-compensation to take advantage of the post-workout insulin spike with a recovery shake before and after or something along those lines.


#10

I'd dial back on the refeed meals if they're making you barf. Not only is it gross, but you're not digesting all the carbs then.

Maybe try making the carbup extra clean (oats, etc) or super-dirty (dixie cups full of sugar)?


#11

binging=cheat meals, not refeeds, they're completely different.

you should be refeeding in a keto every 7 days after the break in. If your going to cheat and mix carbs/fats like in pizza, do it every 10.

repeat what elusive said.

and when you scale down calories in a keto, its best to just add more steady state because of how ketones dont convert back.

if your time cramped and cant, you always reduce fats only, protein stays the same, carbs are still trace veggies/dairy. obviously you dont cut fats until your out of keto and running on protein. but you should never be getting calories that low. get out of keto, stay at maintenance for a few weeks, then cycle back into keto.


#12

Had a re-feed this weekend.. pizza, india food buffet, ice cream, and pastries... gained about 6 lbs.

How do you tell whether or not the weight is glycogen, water, and/or fat? The problem with re-feeds with me is gaining weight and thus my assumption that I'm gaining fat.

How much should I expect to gain in water and glycogen weight if I refeed again?


#13

I've gained 22lbs once. As I wrote the first time about refeeds. You're going to retain water and look bloated. Understand this and don't stress it. You'll expell most of it in two days.

As a side note, if you really can't stand that bloated look for a day, salt all your foods throughout the week. Let your body adjust to the higher salt intake then when you have your refeed (which is usually high in sodium) you will not bloat as much.


#14

I've stopped the keto diet at 190 lbs. I'm going to take the next four weeks, to re-set my metabolism before I attempt another keto diet to get down to 180 % @ 8-10% bf.

Right now I'm just eating fruits and veggies. I'm training similarily e.g. lifting protocol, etc., just with more high intensity cardio e.g. swimming.

I've gained about +5 lbs, 195 lbs now. Should I expect this glycogen, water, and fiber?

I really just don't want to gain any fat again.

Thanks.


#15

Yes, that's most likely weight that comes with refilling your glycogen stores, and the water that accompanies it.