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Keto Diet or Carb Cycling?

so im staying 200 g protein and 120 fat and and adjusts is only for my carbs ?
so now instead of 100 g carbs a day i go for 150 for 6 weeks ? if i ddidnt chage me or move scale up i add more?another 50 g more right?
is it ok im having high fat and upping my carbs ?
a note>> every time i have a so bad wanted cheat meal scale goes up 2 kilo the it goes back to normal 79 like cheating meal doesnt effect me any more

That’s a really good sign. Means your body is already at least partly accustomed to being lean.

Pretty much. It’s not a huge increase in calories. I’d probably just make sure the extra carbs are eaten with protein and not fat.

Pretty much. Hopefully you’ll see added weight without losing leanness. That’s the aim, after all. You won’t add muscle without adding weight, and any muscle gain will come with water weight etc as well. So ideally in six weeks you’d be somewhere around 80-82 kg but not look much different at all, probably just fuller. Then you add more carbs and repeat.

You might end up dropping your fats a bit, and you may not. That’s up to you. I know I feel kind of off if my fats go above 90 grams, and I generally feel best when there between 55 and 75 grams, but then I do better with carbs above 250 grams. You might be the opposite, and find you work best in that 100-150 grams of fat margin with relatively low carbs. You’ll have to experiment, although TBH what you’ve managed with low carbs suggests to me you may do better with higher fat/lower carb so it’s probably a matter of finding your minimum effective amount of carbs to gain lean mass.

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maybe littile stronger too… working on primer muscle right now by ben… means i try to have better muscle mind conect before i load it… aka fixing my forms…kinda working cuz i finally know how to feel my pecs benching …

u just saying im better at insulin sensitivity ? …":smiley:

Thanks for the tag @MarkKO! Lot of info here, I’ll do my best to hit everything.

@rymo51 - If I understand correctly, it sounds like you are trying to raise your carbs, and stay lean while doing so? If I’m off, please let me know.

OK, seems like a good place and it’s working for you. Way to take control!

So, if this is our starting point:
-Keep in mind the most important factor in affecting your body composition and adipose fat gain will be total caloric intake. That being said, we don’t want to go from 50g carbs to 300g in one week.

Keep in mind when you go low carb, you will most definitely lose scale weight quickly, most of it will be glycogen, water and food weight. When you eat carbs, you crate muscle glycogen, which has weight as it is mostly water. So, while you may see the scale move quickly, keep in mind the majority of that initial scale weight loss is water, not fat.

@MarkKO did a good job with his recommendations! Here are some additional thoughts:

-If you want to do your best at staying lean while adding more carbs, you should keep protein steady, and adjust your fat intake conversely with your carb intake. For example, on your training days, if you add an additional 50g carbs let’s say, that’s 200 cals (4 cals per g of carbs.) Fat has 9cals per g. So, 200/9 = ~22. SO, if you add 50g carbs, subtract 22g fat, and your total daily cals will remain the same.

You could start by adding 50g carbs to your training days for the first week. Then, the next week, maybe add another 25-30 on training days, and 30-50 on non training days. Again, adjust your fats so your overall cals are the same. This will ensure you will NOT gain excess fat. You PROBABLY WILL go up in scale weight, which will be WATER weight because you’re taking in more carbs and creating more glycogen. As time passes, you can continue upping carbs and adjusting your fats.

Ultimately, a good breakdown is protein at 1g per pound of bodyweight, fats at 20-25% of total cals, and fill the rest with carbs. To give yourself the best chance of staying lean, keep low/no sugar (fruits are ok) and clean carbs, except for post workout, when you have room for higher GI carbs like rice, potato, etc.

Again, you are seeing the scale go up because you’re cheating and the body isn’t used to the carbs, so you’re holding extra water. Then, the body regulates, loses the water, and you’re back to baseline. The laws of thermodynamics do not cease to anyone, so yes, cheating affects you the same way it would anyone else. The difference is probably that since you are typically low carbing it, you’re maintaining good insulin sensitivity for your cheats. As you continue to raise carbs, you’ll want to make sure they’re coming from food sources you enjoy so you’ll feel the need to cheat less. Nothing wrong with a dirty meal every now and then, but if you get too frequent you’ll lose your conditioning.

-NO. High fat + high carbs = getting fat. If you’re raising carbs, fat should be lowered. Again, ultimately TOTAL CALS are the thing. So, if you keep protein and fats where they are AND raise carbs, you’re adding more total cals and risking getting fatter.

Aside from only focusing on scale weight, make sure you’re taking consistent progress pictures from the same place, same lighting, at the same time of day if you can. You may find as you add more carbs slowly and methodically, you’ll actually get tighter because the muscles will fill with glycogen and be pushed up more against the skin, you’ll have better pumps and performance in the gym, and consequently gain more muscle. The key to upping your carbs and not getting fat will be to just do some simple math, adjust your fats accordingly, and be very consistent and strict.

Is it possible to add carbs, add total cals, gain muscle without getting fat? Yes. Is it easy? Depends on the person. If you have the discipline to do it right, every day, then no doubt you will be able to make it happen!

Please feel free to tag me anytime with any more questions :slight_smile:

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hey sir… thanks for the time u took to type that reply… my big goal is to be lean and extra big and trying to work on that… heard of mi40?

You’re welcome!

For sure, I’m a big fan of B-Pak and have incorporated a lot of his info into my training. Great stuff. Will definitely get you big if you know how to train and establish a great MMC. The leanness factor and your conditioning will stem from your diet, so it’s important and essential to understand that you need to approach your nutrition with the same level of consistency, execution and detail as your training.

@robstein thanks heaps for chiming in. @rymo51 robstein covered pretty much everything I think. So, yes, your insulin sensitivity is most probably better.

TL;DR if carbs go up, fats go down. Keep doing what you’ve been doing and make small adjustments to see how they work.

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Misconception

You don’t “Eventually:” need carbohydrates. That is one of those misconceptions that continues to be promoted.

Research shows that individuals on a Ketogenic Diet can increase muscle mass and and athletes in certain sports perform just as well, sometime better.

Based on my personal experience Ketogenic Diet personal experience, I’ve found that to be true. Due to a metabolic condition, I was place on a Ketogenic Diet a year and a half ago.

Initially, it took me a few weeks to adjust to the Ketogenic Diet. My energy and training suffered. However, once “Keto Adapted” my energy level and lifts are back.

With that said, there are certain type of sports need carbohydrates (glucose) while certain type of sport don’t really need carbohydrates; they fucntion just as well and sometimes better on a Kegogenic Diet.

The sport’s energy system is the determinate factor. With that in mind, let’s look at the…

Athlete’s Energy System

Phosphagen Energy System: Sports that involve short duration burst of energy (Limit Strength, Power and Speed) utilize Adenosine Triphosphate; glucose is not needed.

A Ketogenic Diet works for this group.

Sports Examples: Powerlifting, Olympic Weight Lifting, Track Field Events, Gymnastics, etc.

Glycolytic Energy System: Sports that require moderate intensity for sustained periods of time are glucose (carbohydrate) dependent…

Sports Examples: Basketball, Soccer, etc.

Oxidative Energy System: Endurance Sports primarily utilize ketones (body fat). The Ketogenic Diet for this group is more effective than the Traditional Western (High Carbohdrate) Diet.

Sports Examples: Distance Runner and Bikers.

Carbohydrate Cycling Is Ineffective

Research by Dr Jake Wilson (University of Tampa, Human Performance Lab) found that “Carb Cycling” was counter productive.

Individual who “Carb Loaded” increased body fat.

“The Effects of Ketogenic Dieting on Body Composition, Strength, Power, and Hormonal Profiles in Resistance Training Males” Source: Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research.

Wilson’s research determined greater muscle mass was gained on the Ketogenic Diet vs the Traditional Western “High Carb” Diet.

Wilson’s found that body fat decreased more so on the Ketogenic Diet compared to the Traditional Western Diet.

When “Carb Loading” was reintroduced to those on the Kegogenic Diet, weight gain was predominately fat mass.

Wilson also found after a two day “Carb Load” it took an individual 4 - 5 days for the body to get back into burning ketones (body fat) vs glucose (carbohydrates) for energy.

The Difficulty of The Ketogenic Diet

I like and do well on the Ketogenic Diet. However, I don’t recommend it due to the fact that is so restrictive and demanding.

The harder you make something, the harder it is to follow for the majority of individuals.

What I do recommend is…

Intermittent Fasting

Intermittent Fasting shares some of the same common, beneficial of the Ketogenic Diet and is easier: Increases Insulin Sensitivity, Increases Fat Burning (via elevated epinephrine/nor-epinephrine), increases Metabolic Flexibility.

Individuals on high carbohydrate diet are dependent on glucose at all times; their body’s are inefficient at breaking down body fat into ketones (burning body fat).

With Intermittent Fasting, the body learn to shift between burning ketones and glucose, dependent on the activity demands.

Also, what I like about Intermittent Fasting is it simplicity. No time is needed to prepare food and take it with you.

You simply skip a meal every once in a while; which is something everyone at has done at one time.

Kenny Croxdale

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thats why im dong a primer week by ben… then gonna do hes plans too. i have most of it so yes… done ertut plan before… loved it

thats the plan…

working on it… sucks for side delt so working on how to fix it before i start doing real work for it

was thinking of that but for later not now … need to gain some mass first… wont be cutting my whole life

Intermittent Fasting

Intermittent Fasting is usually a means of decreasing body fat, losing weight.

However, Intermittent Fasting can be used to increase body weight. More on that in a minute.

Calories Count

Gaining or losing body weight, mass centers around either increasing or decreasing you caloric intake.

Any diet that decreases caloric intake will decrease body fat.

One of the best example of that is…

The Twinkie Diet
http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/11/08/twinkie.diet.professor/index.html

Mark Haub, a professor of human nutrition at Kansas State University, went on the “Twinkie Diet” (cookies, cake,…junk food) to demonstrate to his student that calories are the primary determinate of weight gain or weight loss.

Haub lost 27 lbs on the “Twinkie Diet” by consuming fewer calories. Ironically, his lipid blood profile (Cholesterol Reading) improved while eating junk.

It appears that one of the main derivatives of improving you health (Blood Profile) is to decrease you body fat percentage/fat mass.

My Personal Experience

I lost 17 lbs in 37 days after being diagnosed with a metabolic condition. My weight loss average about half a pound a day, .46 lbs per day.

My diet was a combination of the Ketogenic Diet and Intermittent Fasting.

My weight loss was primarily driven by a dramatic decrease in calorie intake via Intermittent Fasting.

My aggressive diet was more of a knee jerk reaction to my metabolic diagnosis driven emotion rather than logic.

However, It was a great learning experience.

Gaining Weight On A Ketogenic Diet

The 17 lbs weight loss was more than I wanted. So, I decided to gain some weight back.

The Ketogenic Diet restricts carbohydrates to 50 gram or less per day and restricts protein intake to approximately 25% of your caloric intake.

Thus, the only alternative to increasing caloric intake was via higher fat consumption, which I did by adding and mixing more fat into my diet: Cream, Liquid Coconut Oil, Medium Chain Triglycerides, etc.

Increasing my fat calorie intake allowed to regain about 12 lbs.

Gaining Weight with Intermittent Fasting

An Intermittent Fasting program that is written and followed that revolves consuming a surplus of calories will increase mass.

Dr John Berardi

Berardi’s a Sports Nutritionist (PhD Nutrition), Bodybuilder and Track Sprinter. Some of Berardi’s research revolves about how to manipulate Intermittent Fasting as a means of decreasing body fat or increasing muscle mass.

Bigger, Smaller, Bigger Intermittent Fasting Program
http://www.biggersmallerbigger.com/

The article above goes into how Berardi wrote an Intermittent Fasting Program with the focus on decreasing body fat/mass and then increasing lean mass,

The Take Home Message

Calories are the primary factor in losing or gaining weight, regardless of the Diet.

Kenny Croxdale

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@KennyCrox @robstein @MarkKO @dt79 guys i need u to see this…


thas all i eat beside post workout shake 26 g pro

I think I have to lower down my belly, to big;

good thinking

If that’s working, keep doing it. If you do add carbs, reduce fat to compensate. Simple.

I too did really well on keto. However, I tried to do endurance activities loaded up on nothing but fats and moderate protein, and it sucked big time. I did this for a few months. I was ski touring/mountaineering; moderate output for 4-8 hrs. I find that I have to eat carbs or I’m gassed pretty quickly. Now I set a 20 minute timer and consume carbs everytime it goes off. With that formula I am a machine. Just my experience.

its working for slow fat loss or weight scale to be exact

Quite. Which is why I suggested gradually adding more carbs and dialling back the fat as that should work better to add muscle. It’ll be tough adding muscle at 2200 calories per day at your bodyweight.

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if im not growing something has to change

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