Vegita, you feel that first one looked like a shoot? Franklin hardly has a fist cocked before Ken starts to fall. He basically hops off his feet and starts to drop backwards before Franklin launches his right (block by both of Ken’s hands) and then throws a left hook that misses completely. And why didn’t Ken finish him with that heel hook? It look like WWE with the two of them rolling on the mat trying to get it or reverse it.
From the video, the first slip definitly looked staged and if you look at the mount on the second one it was very insecure, if you look close you can see Ken’s leg in the middle of them which should have given him an easy escape. More than a little fishy if you ask me.
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
I’ve seen almost every ken shamrock fight, and I can not think of anytime when he’s ever thrown a high kick.
not to mention AGE!!! Have you ever seen randy couture throw a high kick? NO and they’re comparitive ages damn it(bad argument i kno lol)
It reaaaaalllly looks suspicious.[/quote]
I look at it as bad training. I think he tried to do to much in his training, and forgot to stick to what he does best. I don’t think the UFC is fixing fights. That seems less likely given the fact that they have achieved more popularity than ever before over the past 6 months.
I’m not expert, but the first slip looked more like he was going after the ankles and he just got caught with a punch. I really don’t think you can call the first one a slip.
The second one, he was going for a high-kick and slipped. Shamrock isn’t a kicker, so maybe he just screwed up the kick.
I can’t say anything about the mount - hell my own wife damn near choked me down, so I shouldn’t be Monday morning QBing Shamrock.
[quote]JD430 wrote:
Also, Shamrock’s leg locks are known to be very tight, and he had it sunk pretty deep. It did not look to me like he was trying to finish that heel hook very hard. [/quote]
Yeah, I agree on the heel hook. I figured the fight would be over…and the way ol’ boy didn’t even have to roll with it hardly at all was pretty surprising. I don’t recall perfectly, but it seemed almost like Rich stopped moving with it and almost started standing up right there. I’d need to watch it again tho’. I may be off base on that.
Not that I think the ‘fix’ was in, but you never know these days.
Matt
[quote]Lohryx5 wrote:
Franklin had just signed an 8-fight contract the day before and is being touted as the next poster-child for the UFC’s promotional campaign. Additionally, Spike TV only gave them five minutes for that last match and would have pulled the plug if they started to run overtime. [/quote]
Do you have a source for the 5 minute time limit statement, or is it just a rumor? A buddy of mine would like to read about it.
Matt
I’ll have to go back and find it. Some good info on fightsport.com including a bunch of debunked lies regarding Ken. Hard to say what’s 100 percent legit with posts by those on the “inside”. They obviously can’t go by their real names. But think about why the UFC’s success has been gaining. It’s all about the marketing. And this isn’t the only fight Ken has been accused of throwing/fixing (remember the Kimo fight?). Not sure whether Franklin was in on it though.
UFC’s been goofing with stuff since the mid-90’s. When it first came out, there were no rounds or time limits, and this benefited the grappler/BJJ guys big time. Their game was severely hindered with the implementation of short rounds. Remember how long Royce Gracie would hold on to a guy to submit him? Granted, the arguement could be that the UFC was trying to force fighters to become more rounded in their skills. But at the same time, do you think they really liked the fact that the Brazilians were whooping ass on an American broadcast show. The Gracies then tried to take their game to Japan on PRIDE FC after the UFC changes (but Sakuraba kicked all their asses).
Sorry, starting to ramble now.
I saw the fight too and was pretty disappointed. My wife who has never seen him fight thought it looked like he took a dive…
I think I remember hearing something about Ken having a bad knee, which knee would that be? In both “slips” its his left leg that initiated it.
Well, most “thrown” fights are particularly bothersome because the winner almost always has no idea the other guy is throwing it. If Ken did throw it, Franklin was likely not in on it. Think about it, if one guy doesn’t even know, you only have one guy who has to “sell it” to the audience.
-Food for thought : Ken Shamrock was a pro wrestler before becoming a NHB fighter
Also, UFC and MMA in general IS “professional wrestling”, except with striking.
I don’t mean WWE ’ rasslin, i mean it is men paid to wrestle and submit each other.
Are you starting to understand why wrestling became fixed???
Off of Ken’s own website, it was his left knee that he had his ACL fixed. He claimed he was 100% prior to the fight. But this was his last fight under UFC contract. Think about this. No more contract, no more money. Or how about, throw this fight and we’ll pay you big time. Maybe even a renewed contract or something. What better way to introduce the public to a new poster-child than to beat a “legend”?
No, Shamrock was in UFC 1, twelve years ago, and didn’t start doing the “tv wrestling” crap till later. And he never won a UFC tourney. He was a marketable American to pit against the Brazilian BJJ guys. Not to say he sucks, but he’s been in a lot of suspicious matches. He learned a lot of it during his “wrestling” days and even some during his Pancrase days.
Wrong. Shamrock was a pro wrestler before MMA. One of the reasons he got out was pressure from his wife to leave the biz after he got the sh#t kicked out of him by two assholes who wrestled as the Nasty Boys, who jumped him and caught him unawares.
It was only after that that he tried out for Pancrase.
Hey! The fight before that! Holy shit! What s fight; I was glued to that fight. Both of em’ are great fighters & 100% champions. I’m sure the dude that lost will also get a contract soon also. AND! What about the rematch? I can’t wait for that one! Damn, that’s gonna be great! I’m a huge fan now!
First of all Shamrocks famous “heel hook” is not all that great. Remember the Don Frye fight? He had him in a heel hook for maybe a minute or more. Looked like he was cranking it and was going to break Fryes ankle. Frye survived that move and won the fight. By the way I never saw Shamrock fight better than he did in that loss to Frye.
Shamrock was never a great fighter. Many people today who are not familiar with the UFC think he was one of the greats. In reality, while he was a pioneer, he was never one of the greats. Those who have been following UFC for a while remember some of his fights when he was supposedly in his “prime.”
His first fight with Royce Gracie he tapped out from a choke. When the ref stopped the fight he claimed he never tapped. When questioned by the ref and Royce he backed down and admitted that he tapped.
Second fight with Royce Gracie he said “I am not losing this no matter what.” He was right, in those days you had to tap the guy out or knock him out, if not it was a draw. Shamrock pumped himself up to about 240lbs. to Royce’s 178lb. He grabbed Royce and simply hung on and stalled for the entire match. There was no breaking the fighters up then. He didn’t lose, he got a draw.
Then there was his famous match against Dan Severon (he fought him more than once) where he refused to be aggressive and stalled for the entire fight. He didn’t lose, but what a piss poor showing!
Tito destroyed Shamrock with ease, but can’t come close to beating either Lidell or Couture. Does that say a little something about Kens future?
Shamrock is tough don’t get me wrong, but he was never one of the elite UFC fighters, as much as the current UFC management wants to tell you he is.
He simply lost to a better younger fighter the other night. I think if he’ smart he will reitre before he becomes a joke.
(Not that I would ever laugh at him to his face:)
Watching MMA from the start of the UFC, I’d say the Shamrock fight was definitely staged. Shamrock even mentioned “building a star” off himself. That’s a total pro wrestling thing to do. To be a legend you have to first beat a legend? Come on. Then again, there was always talk that the first few UFCs were rigged for the Gracies to win. Ken got beat by Royce in UFC 1, no? Makes you think that Ken’s entire career was a sham. World’s most dangerous man indeed.
In all seriousness though, the fight did look fixed, but shit happens. If you want to see real fighting, you have to watch Pride. Hands down, no contest, the best fighters in the world. Fedor, Crocop, Skauraba, Belfort, Nourgeria. You can’t fuck with these guys.
One more thing about the UFC broadcast. Rogan mentioned Shamrock’s fight with Fujita. That fight was a mess. Fujita is a brick wall with slanted eyes, and Shamrock’s punches had NO effect on him. Shamrock told his corner to throw in the towel because we was obvious afraid for his life and could do nothing to hurt the man. It was great, but hardly a testament to Shamrock’s punching power. Fujita is a japanese juggernaut, and he’s from Pride. Shamrock is a weather-beaten UFC guy. Everybody’s got their level.
BTW, Yes, Ken should retire.
I guess no one will know if the fights are fixed, unless a fighter speaks out. I’m surprised that Spike TV would actually cut the fight if it ran long. I know that they always let WWE show run 5 to 10 mins long. The UFC show was on right after and I had to wait at least 10 mins for damn WWE to be over. Well, I hope UFC don’t turn into a WWE. Like when they had the Tito, Randy, and Chuck drama a while back. Tito chickened out and Randy end up fighting Chuck and Randy fight Tito, and Tito fight Chuck, blah, blah, blah.
Sonny, you’re right about the wrestling thing, but I was speaking more of his unsanctioned underground street fights for cash before all of that.
For those who don’t know, Ken went through a couple wrestling schools in 1988 under the advice of his adoptive father, Bob Shamrock. Most people don’t know about his stint with South Atlantic Pro Wrestling afterwards. He was known as Wayne Shamrock and then “Mr. Wrestling” Vince Torelli.
Ken then went on to some Shoot Fighting with Japan’s UWF. It was here that fellow UWF stars Masakatsu Funaki and Minoru Suzuki asked Ken to help them start Pancrase.
Back to SAPW in 1991, then some Pancrase and numerous UFC fights. WWF from like 1997 to 1999 followed by NWA and a UPW anniversary show.
The incident with the Nasty Boys started at a nightclub in Charlotte, NC where they made some remarks to a the fiance of Ken’s friend who was there with them all. He convinced them to back off and went to their hotel later to talk to them about where it’s rumored that he was clubbed from behind and then beaten pretty bad. In fact, he was almost tossed over the balcony railing. He confronted them again some time later with Billy Gunn around, and the Nasty Boys wimped out of it.
As to the fall…
To me it looked like he made a classic mistake of someone who is not used to throwing kicks from the back leg, or a #2 kick. Kick was with his right leg and as he brought it it up and around, looked like he had his weight back on his heel, not on the ball of his foot, where it should have been.
I have seen many people in TKD take the same fall on that same kick, esp. when they’re not used to throwing it a lot, You get your weight over your heel, the floor or your foot is a little slick and BAM, gravity takes over. I’ve busted my ass before doing a reverse crescent kick, got on my heel and went flat on my back. Not fun.
Just my opinion on what happened. He did fold up after he hit the ground like he was in shock of the fall.