T Nation

Keeping Your Gains


#1

All:

I found this post and thought it would be worth while to post it here. Never talked to the authour but it made a lot of sense to me. It's a long read, but I think worth it, especially for newbies!

How to KEEP GAINS from steroids

This info I have gleaned from self-research, trial and error, from my endocrinologist, from SWALE and from training hundreds of clients over the years.

This is a longish post but many of you will greatly benefit from reading it so try to bare with my "blathering"

First of all I would like to stress that I and my endocrinologist do not believe one can keep gains above ones natural max, or that level of muscular development that can be held to without steroids. In other words, I think one will always shrink down to the size that can be held to with ones own T production.

In reality what usually happens is that many (not all) steroid users fall BELOW their natural max within months of discontinuing steroids for one or all of the following reasons...poor HPTA recovery and or lack of knowledge in regard to what makes up proper steroid free training.

If HPTA recovery is not fairly rapid and complete then obviously one risks dropping BELOW ones natural max in time. If one does not know how to train effectively without steroids then one will rapidly overtrain and drop below natural max in time, not to mention the strong possibility of injury, which also will hinder gainskeeping.

You can, however, makes gains well above your natural max while on steroids and then with prudent use of ancillaries, and proper natural training, hold to your natural max well into ones 50's and perhaps early 60's.

As an estimate of natural max...the average guy of average height( 5"9 or 10") and with average bone structure and genetically typical recuperative abilities (vast majority of men) can usually get to a lean 190-195 with a bench of 275-300, full squat of 375-400 and a deadlift of about 500 pounds without steroids.

ANCILLARIES.... HCG

Dare I say that HCG use is more important than SERMS (nolva or clomid) for good hpta recovery after a LONG cycle( 12 weeks or longer)
Personally I would use hcg during any cycle 8 weeks or longer...and if you are really paranoid and want the absolute most rapid hpta recovery then use it during any cycle for next to zero testicular shrinkage.

Now you will recover hpta without HCG, and fairly quickly if you truly have not suffered from much testicular atrophy, but not as rapidly as you could and that will cost you at least some gains.

HCG, human chorionic gonadotropin, is a hormone taken from placentas during
pregnancy. It mimics the action of LH from the pituitary and stimulates testosterone production in the testes.

It is important to the male bodybuilder in that proper use of this hormone PREVENTS testicular atrophy caused by HPTA shut down from steroid use.

If the testes are shut down they will shrink, it's as simple as that. The degree of shrinkage depends upon the length of time "on" androgens. Some guys literally see their testes atrophy down to raisin size.. NO SHIT.

Others see modest shrinkage and a few say they see NO shrinkage. In the latter this is BS and has to due with poor pre-cycle assessment of testicular size.... after all how many of us sit down before a cycle and really feel the true size of our balls.

NOTE: all steroids will shut you down 100% and at a very low dose, and that includes Primo and anavar for you skeptics. As little as 100mg a week of testosterone administered exogenously in the form of injections will shut you down in as little as a few weeks.

HPTA RECOVERY

The hormones that drive the HPT axis (LH and GnRH) recover full potential quite quickly post cycle. The hypothalamus rapidly senses a low androgen level and pumps out GnRH and this tells the pituitary to release LH for testicular stimulation of T production...trouble is if the nuts are small they simply cannot respond well to this stimulation.

The testes take a fair amount of time to "get going" after a long sleep and as a result T levels post cycle can be low for months (if greatly atrophied). This obviously results in a rapid loss of gains, not to mention physiological issues such as depression as well as physical issues like fatigue.

  • SO it is important for "optimal" gainskeeping to try to begin HPTA recovery with full or nearly full sized testes.

HOW TO USE HCG

It is best to prevent testicular atrophy in the first place rather than trying to bringing the boys back to size after they have already atrophied.
With this in mind prudent use of HCG is DURING a cycle.

HCG can be taken either IM or sub Q in the fat and yes you can mix it with your oils.

Take it at 500iu's every 3rd or 4th day while on cycle.

Some use it post cycle at higher doses after their testes have already shrunk. This method works but I do not believe that it is the best way to use HCG. In this method one injects a high dose of HCG right near the end of a cycle but before clomid.

The opening dose is often 3000iu's followed sometimes by another 3000 4 days latter and then 1500iu's every 4th or 5th day and then the last shot is usually only 1000iu's.... total time three weeks.

No use taking clomid or nolva with the HCG since HCG will suppress the hpta all by itself via the testosterone production it stimulates.

WARNING...if you use hcg at a high dose for too long you might desensitize the testes to LH so don't get carried away with it.

SERMS clomid and nolva

after any cycle a SERM should be used, either clomid or nolva.

SERMS help to "kickstart" a sleepy hypothalamic GnRH response.

GnRH is pretty quick to recover but SERMS help the hypothalamus to "turn the key" on the GnRH impulse generating engine.

SERMS block the affect of estrogen at the hypothalamus and since estrogen is highly inhibitory this blocking affect allows for greater LH production. This "greater LH production" strongly stimulates the testes to produce testosterone.

If you use only gear that does NOT aromatize to estrogen then you don't have to worry about the inhibitory affect of estrogen post cycle (from the steroid)...but SERM's should still be used to counter the inhibitory affect of the estrogen seen form the T production (from the hcg use)...and also from the estrogen production from the aromatization of the T production form your testes after the hcg is stopped.

*Even if you never used HCG you should still use a SERM after a cycle with non aromatizing gear to counter the inhibitory effect of normal estrogen production (from the aromatization of T from your improving T production)

You have to wait until exogenous androgen levels drop to a similar level of what a normal T production would be, in order for this LH stimulating affect from SERMS to work, since androgens are also highly inhibitory on the hypothalamus.

So you must have to have a good grasp on the half-life?s of the various gear you use. You also have to be aware of the how the dose taken factors into the equation. i.e.: test cyp has a half life of around 6 days so with this in mind 500mg of test cyp will reduce to 250 mg in a week and about 125 in another week.

That 125mg is about 100mg of pure testosterone (minus ester weight) and you can now begin SERM therapy because that level is near what a normal T output would be (slightly higher though)

NOTE: There is no penalty for starting a SERM too early but there is one for starting too late.

Search for half-life?s of other gear in other threads on the boards.

On opening "SERM day", post cycle, you want to do a "loading dose" of about 200-300mg of clomid in divided doses in order to get blood levels up pronto. Then take 50-100mg/day for a week and then 50mg/day for 3 more weeks MINIMUM... and longer after Deca use.

Alternatively you can use nolva at 80mg on day one in divided dose and then 40mg /day for a week and then 20mg/day for at least 3 more weeks.

PROPER STEROID FREE TRAINING POST CYCLE...for the genetically typical (most men)...not easy gainers.

Thanx to all the glossy magazines out there very very few bro's really know how to train for gains without steroids. Dare I say that not a few of you turned to gear simply because you could not make very good gains as a natural.

Thanx JOE WEIDER, and others, for NOT telling the whole story in the glossy mags. THE ROUTINES IN THE MAGS WILL NOT WORK FOR 90% OF ALL MEN UNLESS THEY ARE, #1 ON GEAR AND #2, AT LEAST SOMEWHAT GENETICALLY GIFTED.

Guys these pro's are so out of touch with what works for the typical man training naturally that it isn't funny.

These guys are genetic freaks on a ton of gear...like 2-4 grams of test a week, other steroids, growth and slin! Not only that but they don't have jobs outside the gym to drain them either!

Steroids not only help muscle building but more importantly they GREATLY improve recuperative powers.

Most guys continue to train in a very similar fashion while off gear as they did while on gear, especially in regard the number of days in the gym each week, and this is a HUGE ERROR.

Many, many guys simply overtrain after they stop the gear and loose huge amounts of muscle and many actually end up below their natural max potential in time. Others do not even bother training at all without juice!

I went to a Dorian Yates seminar a few years ago and he mentioned all this. Dorian's recommendations in regards to training without gear where almost identical to mine.

Dorian said that most trainees should train no more frequently than three days a week on a three way split while "off" steroids and that all should use a low volume of sets and work primarily on the big basic compound movements with very hard work. FINIALLY A PRO THAT KNOWS AND TELLS THE TRUTH!

Most men simply cannot recuperate from frequent trips to the gym and even moderately high volume without the assistance of steroids. Most men are genetically typical in the recuperation department.... and that?s at least 90% of you bro's.

I have good genetics for bodybuilding and I could train in almost any manner while on gear and gain well but even while on gear I choose to train infrequently, every other day on a three way split while "on" and Mon-Wed and FRI on a three way split while "off", and with low volume and very hard work...WHY?...for three reasons....

1. I have other things to do in my busy life and

2. I make even better gains and get even bigger with this style of training...#3. I like it

****SO>>>>>How much more is it important for the typical trainee to train in a similar way without steroids in his system.

GUYS...you don't have to be in the gym 5 and 6 days a week and train with high volume in order to see excellent gains while ?on" steroids and in fact most of you would do better training fewer days and with lower volume but with more effort on those sets.

For those that are in the gym 6 days a week and like 10-20 sets per body part and are making good gains then more power to ya...but you just might do better training less frequently and with less volume.

Shit I am genetically gifted and I have seen my best gains on gear training every other day on a three way split with low volume and big efforts.

Remember you easy gainers...the pro's are very genetically gifted, on more gear than most of you and don't have jobs or go to school.

EXAMPLE OF PROPER STEROID FREE TRAINING...for the genetically typical, or probably at least 90% of all bro's on this board. Notice the focus on the big basic compound movements.

********PLEASE...the genetically gifted and easy gainers need not make negative comments!*********

Some of you like to be in the gym 5-6 days a week and like higher volume with more isolation work and you do well without steroids ...that?s fine...but most men simply cannot gain well or even keep what they gained from steroids training like you.

Dare I say that maybe you too would do better by cutting volume a bit, increasing effort, focusing on the big basics and spending a little less time in the gym each week.

EASY GAINERS SPLIT.

For those that gain pretty well why not reduce your time in the gym to the following 4 way split that Dorian Yates made popular. Less time in the gym and more time off recuperating just might be the ticket for you. I usually train every other day on a three way split while "on" but when "feeling my oats" I sometimes train in this Yates split.

Day 1 ON
Day 2 ON
Day 3 OFF
Day 4 ON
Day 5 OFF
Day 6 ON
Day 7 OFF

ROUTINE AND SPLIT for genetically typical men (most men)

MONDAY

all exercises to be done slow and strict...nothing super explosive or rapid. The KEY is hard work and a focus on progressive poundage gains in small to tiny jumps weekly.

Incline bench (30 degree) or some type of incline press. 2-3 warm ups of 5 and then 2 sets hard for 8 reps
Declines or weighted dips with elbows out. 2 sets of 8. Best overall chest developer works the entire chest well.

Abs ...now... to rest triceps. 2-3 sets each of crunches and hanging knee ups. Add weight if you can do more than 20 reps. Try to curl the hips upwards as the knees come up above the waist.

Lying tricep extensions. 1 warm up of 8 and then 2 sets of 10 hard
Dips with elbows in. I like the hammer dip machine 2 sets of 8-10.

Toe press in leg press machine. Slow and full for 4 sets of 10-15 reps. reduce weight after each set after only 90 second rests between sets. Works the entire calf including soleus.

WEDNESDAY

Pulldowns or chins with palms facing you grip. 2-3 warm ups of 5 and then 2-3 sets of 10 hard. Use straps...arch low back at bottom. Slow and strict!

Some type of row.... arch the low back and squeeze. 2 sets of 8-10 Great for mid upper back and rear delts

Overhead press to front either on a 85 degree bench with a barbell or in a machine (hammer is good) 2-3 warm ups of 5 and then 2-3 sets of 8 hard. Works the entire deltoid complex including the rear head

Upright row with straps. Grip about 10 inches wide 2 sets of 10

Shrugs 2-3 sets of 10

Curls 3-4 sets of 10 hard
forearm work if you like

FRIDAY
SQUATS....you MUST SQUAT and squat correctly and that means upper thighs to AT LEAST parallel...lower is better. 3 warm ups of 5...don't tire yourself out....then 2 and at most 3 all out sets of 10. These sets should take you a long time to complete with very high effort. Rest 4 minutes between sets.
Hard squating and deadlifting make you anabolic and help gains all over your body.

Now go over to the leg press machine and set the back rest as low as it goes (helps with full range of motion) and load up about 75% of your max weight for 10 reps.

Do one warm up set with this weight...not for your thighs BTW as they are already toast...it's to get your low back used to the deep motion of the press properly done.

Then load up your max weight for 10.

Leg extensions 1 all out set of 10-15 slow and with a hold at the top

...with no more than 30 seconds rest do the leg press with that top weight you loaded up. The leg extensions done before the leg press pre-exhaust the thighs a bit and the relatively fresh glutes/hams and hips will really push those quads.

Leg press...deep and with feet high on platform. 1 all out set of 10

ALTERNATIVEY..You can get really good results from simply 3 sets of 10 of very hard deep squats.

Squats properly done work the entire quad/glutes/hams and low back very well. You really don't need anything else for the quads.

SQUAT TIP
One key is to go a little below parallel until you feel your sacrum/butt "dip" into the pocket. This activates the powerful glutes, hips and hams and allows for more weight to be squated and more quad stimulation.

DONE QUADS...now sit down for 5 minutes!

Stiff leg deadlifts....to just below knee height. Use straps. Back straight. PIVOT AT THE HIP. By far the best ham worker and a very good erector movement too. 2 warm ups of 5 and then 2 very hard sets of 10
SLDL not only work the hams very well but they also work the low back very well too.

Hyperextensions with weight 2 set of 10-15
OR
regular deadlifts in the rack...set pins at just below knee height. 1 warm up and then one set of 8-10(no bouncing) use straps

leg curl. 2 sets of 8

DONE! Short but very tough leg/back workout if done with a lot of effort...and more than enough for the non-steroid user. Now crawl to your post workout protein shake!

TRUE HARD GAINERS

Believe it or not bro's not a few of you need to do even fewer working sets than I listed in the above routine. Hard gainers have a very limited ability to recover from weight lifting and believe me hard gainers are not rare at all and are far more common than easy gainers.

*** While training, and especially while natural, you MUST make weight progression and HARD WORK in the big basic movements your priority.

Try to progressively add small and then tiny bits of weight to the bars weekly or every two weeks...even a 1- 2 pound gain per week on the squat and a 1 pound or less per week or two gain in the bench for reps is good progress, after the going gets really tough. Get some small plates

*Make sure you keep the reps strict and full as you progress in poundage though...you want REALGAINS and not gains in poundage due to progressively rapid and poorly executed reps.

After failing to get even tiny increases in weight for several weeks reduce the working sets OR let the reps drop to sets of 5...still trying to up the weights.

When progress halts again take 10 full day off from weights...come back with about 90% of your previous best for the higher reps and work your way up to and past your previous bests.

Forget about all the isolation stuff...I gave you enough already....

You want big pecs( in all regions) and triceps then add 75 pounds to your declines or dips with elbows out.

You want big triceps then focus on adding 50 pounds to the overhead press and dips with elbows in...You want big biceps then focus on adding 50 pounds to your chins and 75 to your rows...you want big side delts then focus on adding 50 pounds to your over head presses.

YOU WANT BIG WELL SHAPED RIPPED QUADS, HAMS and ERECTORS then add 200 pounds to your 10-rep squat and 150 pounds to your stiff leg deads!

CARDIO

limit the cardio to no more than 3 times a week for 30 minutes at pop or it will eat into your recuperative powers.


#2

More people reposting inacurrate information. Great!


#3

Ohh boy! I smell a war. LOL

Isn't that swales old hcg protocol? I know 22's opinion on that, and I kinda agree. Just to reiterate another point though, would 100 mgs of test enth actually shut you down 100% ? I'm somewhat unclear. ALso how do either of you feel about aromasin (or atd) used in place of hcg, mid or post cycle?

BTW P-22, I know you disagree with the drug info. However, I dont' think the training advice is to far off at all. Looks pretty solid, or do you disagree?


#4

Prisoner#22 I have read your thoughts on HCG use,could you please re-post your thoughts on pct an AI use for us,Thanks


#5

Want to keep your gains? Keep taking. This is the only thing that worked long-term for me.


#6

I'm guessing you're talking about bridging. Like say running 250 enth every week when you're not on. And then running 2-3 6-12 weeker throughout the year? Been considering it but my health insurance is non-existent right now so even a checkup is alot of $. However, I graduate this semester :wink:


#7

P22: I respect your opinion. What exactly do you consider inaccurate?


#8

^^I second^^
Would love to hear more opinions from those with experience or knowledge in this area. It's hard to find legit info on the internet.

HCG's do shut you down according to many literatures I read

There's a lot of controversy over how you should workout ON/PCT/AFTER. Some say workout the same some say do more on cycle. What are yalls thoughts about doing an undulated periodization(or any periodization routine for this matter) routine, that lasts longer than your cycle, with assistance, or should it be a static routine?

Thanks!
RetailBoy


#9

Yeah I guess you could call it bridging. A certain world champion O-lifter told me he and his team was on test year-round, they just cycled the D-bol or Winnie tabs when getting ready for a contest.


#10

Well first off, I don't believe you should work out any differently while on cycle then you did naturally, so therefore there should be very little change to workouts once you go off. That is how you keep your gains.

Secondly the use of hcg is primarily in veteranarian applications, for causing ovulation,and increases in sperm counts to ensure propagation of the heard. They don't care about the animal's libido. It is the same in humans, it is primarily for giving the best chance at pregnancy, not for use in post cycle recovery of steroids. Yes of course if you have a pituatary insufficiency of LH secretion, then there are definite reasons for using hcg for hrt purposes.
The problem is that as men age, Lh production normally does not fall off, it is actually the testicles ability to respond to the LH that wains.

Now everyone has heard the 'theory' that hcg causes desensitization of the leydig cells to your own natural hormone. Well this is true. In the end, of course eventually the body will readjust, however temporarily, you become just as dependant on hcg, as you were on steriods, and I am talking of using as little as 250-100 iu at a time. How do I know this? from experience of course, as I was once 'fooled' by Swale's approach but I have tried it both ways and the verdict is in: recovery is much easier without hcg then with.

So why the hell would you even think of using hcg in the first place? Why would you unnessessarily cause suppression on a whole different level, within your axis?

The reason why is that someone fooled us all into thinking that testicular atrophy actually occurs??? and that it is a real concern, that it will hinder recovery. Well the truth is that is a pack of lies. Yes while on cycle the testicles may 'feel' smaller, however, it is just because of lack of blood flow to the area. Same principle as any other body part - when it is working hard it becomes engorged with extra blood. When it isn't it is not engorged with blood and feels smaller, and cooler. That of course doesn't justify the need to pump hcg into your body, if it bothers you, just use a little bit of mueler's hotstuff to the area, and I guarentee it will become warmer and more swollen, and with out the added suppression :).

So if hcg isn't the answer what is? Well the bottom line is this... Keep things simple. Don't flood your body with a whole lot of crap like serms and hcg and other things that are just going to complicate the processes of reachieving homeostasis post cycle.

All you need is an AI to ensure that estrogen levels do not rise above normal levels. And for those who think you need high levels of estrogen to 'maximize gains' that is a myth, all you are actually doing is retaining more water and fat, and killing testicuar cells in the process.

So basically continue the AI all the way through the cycle and taper it as the testosterone tapers out of your system, to ensure there is no 'rebound' effect at cycle's end.

The key however is that synthetic testosterone must be the last compound to leave your body, or recovery will be much harder and longer. Compounds like nandrolone or trenbolone that convert to progesteone, do not convert to dht, and bind well to the AR should always be the first coupounds to leave your system. Testosterone -which is indistiquishable to your own hormones by your body should be the last, as I have said.

Now as I am not on the payroll role of T-Nation I am not going to produce studies here, as the last thing I have time for after a busy day on the wards is to do research, however I will say that I have tested both approaches myself and have found the hcg/ serm approach to be quit inferior to the methods I now back. I have no agenda here, and you can see that I am not just 'rehashing' information obtained from others as many do.

As for keeping your gains, I have found that if you cycle off for a period of time, using my method and avoiding the 'crash' that the body will re-set itself, becoming more sensitive to AAS again. This in my experience has taken about 3 months. But I cannot say for sure what the minimum amount of time is. Anyways, If you continue to train well, you will be abkle to keep a fair portion of your gains, and then returning to a high dose cycle for about 8 weeks, will be able to reclaim gains lost plus additional gains usually depending on how experienced you are, around 5-10 lbs of muscle.

When you have several cycles under your belt, a gain in muscle of 10 lbs in a year is a pretty substantial gain, and one you should be quite happy with.

If however you decide to stay on all year round, your gains may be closer to that of a natural competitor, as your body becomes used to the high levels of AAS and no longer responds as much.


#11

Prisoner: Thanks for the time and info!


#12

p22 you knowledgeable bastard. always enjoy reading your input

Dezz


#13

God dammit P-22, just when I was really starting to like Anthony Roberts pct approach you have m scrathing my head. So lets say this, I pull a 20+ weeker of various gear BUT test is the last thing to leave my system like you advise. THen what? I just continue with my AI in my case letro and after 3 months I'd be ready or pretty close to it again.

BTW don't jump all over me because I know that's not exactly what you said. I'm assuming that you meant after an 8 week cycle then the adivce you gave would be proper ( not after a 20). So no nolva at all? ANd for the last of my semi-retarted questions, which AI would you prefer the most? Arimidex, Femara, Aromasin? THanks in advance bro.


#14

i liked the read. i have seen it before, i find the weight lifting advocacie accurate. i am unsure of the hcg protocol.

i myself am using an ai, letro in all my cycles, then i follow with nolva/clomid. as well as trib, fenugreek, maca.

wideguy i beleive prisoner suggests using an ai then as the test which he feels is the last to leave the system, then clomid/nola therapy begin.

a point that i thought was left out of the article and by prisoner is control of cortisol. i do feel controlling this has a great benefit in pct, as well as bouts of high levels of training.


#15

Yeah I was kinda wondering why no nolva (however I'm beginning to wonder how necessary clomid is at all and I hate it). As for cortisol what to you reccomend? PS at 800 mgs to 1 gram or maybe some lean extreme?


#16

P-22:

Thanks for your very articulate reply. I have to say that HCG usage is one of the more controversial issues in BB circles. And your method smashes conventional wisdom right in the balls. I am not near as experienced as others but based on my own anecdotal results I feel that HCG has been useful when I have used it throughout my last 2 cycles.

At the end of my first cycle, I only used Nolva and I felt depressed, libido problems, etc. In the next cycle I used HCG at 500 ius every 3rd day, and 10 days prior to PCT and didn't experience any of these sides, recovery came and life went on, of course I also used an AI and added Clomid for 5 days and then Nolva (Arthur Rea, Chemical Muscle Enhancement protocol).

I will try your method in the near future and see if it yields the same results. I have to say that based on my spending time reading different boards most guys my age (Over 40) that use AAS swear by HCG usage. If I get the gist of your method, let?s say I am running prop at 800 MG a week, so according to your method, I would taper that to 400, 200, 100 and if I was using Adex at .5 MG ED then maybe at .25, then eod and wait till my HPTA brings itself back on line, wait 3 months and hit it again?

Based on your method, I suppose cycle length is irrelevant, 6 or 20 weeks same method? I am contemplating a long cutter over 16 to 18 weeks using longer esters the first 10 weeks and switching to shorter esters the latter part of the cycle and was planning using HCG throughout, now I?ll have to think about it. The thing about Swale?s protocol that made the most sense to me is prevent the problem before it happens of course your saying it doesn't happen.

With regard to training, I can train heavier when on than off, but I try and keep it within reason to avoid injury. For me, it works better to cut back a bit after the cycle ends. Thanks again for your input.


#17

The trouble with the 'old guys' and hcg is most of them are dependant on it for life that used it regularly.

As for the taper:
You don't have to do such a long taper, as most of the gear will taper itself. You just have to run the testosterone to the point where no other compound is present in you body. Continue to run the test at hrt levels - less than 100mg of test enanthate a week if you like, and slowly reduce it from there.

The examples I have given are just that. You should slowly reduce the dose each week, based on how you feel, as your body will tell you when it is ready to recover. When I tapered off last time I was using 50 mg/ week as my last dose.

Running an AI throughout the cycle, and through the taper, completely eliminates the need for using a SERM. If estrogen is maintained at normal levels, then there is no need for serms at all.

And you can apply this method to an 8 week cycle or a 10 month cycle, it will work just the same.

As for HCG, an alternative to this is to use tribulus throughout the cycle, stopping it at cycle's end. This won't negatively effect testosterone production like HCG

For those who are using hcg. Once you are finished post cycle, get your testosterone levels checked along with you LH/ FSH. A normal reading of LH compared with a lower reading of test levels will confirm the suppression you have caused yourself by using hcg.


#18

P22,

thanks for spending your time to drop some knowledge once again...

much appreciated.


#19

Trib during cycle huh?

What dose would you reccomend?

ALso, dont' take this the wrong way but I dont' see how it's possible you can think someone is going to recover in roughly the same amount of time from a 10 week cycle as someone who ran an 8 month cycle. If that's is what your saying then it just seems WAY out there from everything I've ever heard, read, or thought.

If I misunderstood you I apologize and I'm sure you'll let me know...either way I'm sure you'll let me know. BTw P-22, not to be a suck ass but I do enjoy having you here. I remember you and Squatty going back and forth when you first showed up.

Squatty bro, if you're lurking. Hello, and I lost my phone so I dont' have your # anymore. Hope all is well.


#20

Bump = I'm impatient!