T Nation

Keep Crashing Estrogen


#1

Long story short, i never had an issue with estrogen, id take .2mg as needed when i felt watery and pumps and libido started to slip, usually every 1.5 to 2 weeks on about 160mg test E a week and always felt phenomenal - dry, hard, good
pumps, morning wood, good mood, amazing quality of life. within last 6-7 months i’ve kept my estrogen high for awhile for joint comfort, but realized it hindered my pumps and growth in the gym. so i started taking my adex and i crashed my estrogen. however, when i crashed it, the symptoms such as severe bloating, no pumps, dead libido, extreme depression and anxiety. this went on for awhile, because i would crash it, continue to take anastrozle because i thought it wasn’t working, and if i stopped taking the anastrozole i’d get rebound within 5-6 days so it all felt the same to me. i finally got bloodwork 3 weeks ago after taking a week off shots and also taking .3mg adex 3 days prior to the bloods, results as follows:

Testosterone: 769 (348-1197)
Free Test: 17.6 (9.3-26.5)
LH: <0.2
FSH: <0.2
Estradiol, non sensitive: <5.0, (7.6-42.6)
Prolactin: 6.9ng/Dl (4-15)
DHEA: 207ng/dl (31-701)
IGF 1: 268 (155-355)
TSH: 1.7 (.450-4.450)
T3: 72ng/Dl (71-180)
T4: 5.3 (4.5-12)
LDL: 76
HDL: 33
AST: 52 (0-40)
ALT: 52 (0-40)
Vitamin D: 39.9 (19-79.9)

After these results, I stopped taking the adex and I felt my estrogen creep up after 5 days. I felt tight and hard again but that only lasted 2-3 days as I began to get soft again like i was when my estrogen was low, but my libido was much better and nipples got a little puffy, and i wasn’t depressed - these are my typical high E2 symptoms. So, i took another .25mg adex and crashed my estrogen again, i felt depressed, sad, paranoid and no motivation to lift. So, I stopped taking the adex again waited a week, and bumped up my Test to 200mg a week. Crashed my estrogen again friday night with .25mg adex. So now here I am on tuesday, I don’t believe im crashed right now because i don’t have the crashed E2 symptoms where i’m depressed with no libido. But i’m nothing like how i used to be. My mood isn’t as great, i’m watery, pumps aren’t good, contractions aren’t good, libido is okay, had a little wood last night but i had to go to the bathroom, not as vascular and my skin is oily. I’m not sure what to do at this point. I feel like I have no hope in getting back to how I used
to feel and be. Hopefully I can get more bloodwork when I see my doctor on the 21st but I don’t know what he’s going to say. My current plan is to not take any adex until Friday, that would be 7 days without any adex. Then introduce .15mg. Anyone have any insight in what I can do from here? Adex is pharmaceutical grade and i have another brand that is a reputable UGL. Is it possible that my estrogen rebound this quick? I’m not using aromasin so i know my aromatase doesn’t have to be built back up again.

Stats: 27
weight: 180
Bf: 10%
height: 5’5


#2

Id just like to add - when i would usually take .2mg adex, sometimes i feel like i’d bring it too low - but not crashed, because i never ever felt depressed or reduced libido, but i would feel super dry, painful joints and crappy pumps, but within a day or two i’d feel a little less dry and my pumps would be in full force. and other times i’d just take the perfect amount of adex and id have the best workouts and libido ever. I want to get back there so bad. because when i crash estrogen now, i get bloated, flat, no pumps, no libido, and severely depressed probably due to the fact that i wasn’t producing any serotonin. i haven’t felt extremely tight vascular and like a beast in so long.


#3

You are an anastrozole over-responder and probably need 1/4th expected dosing.

You stopped T injections and your AI dose needs drop from that.

When you discuss AI dose, is that dosing every day?

You need a constant T dose and should inject twice a week and take AI at time of injections. You need steady T doses and steady AI doses so labs are useful. Error on the side of small doses.

Describe what has your T dosing.

Your Vit-D25 is suboptimal. 5000iu Vit-D3 per day.

Thyroid not good. TSH should be closer to 1.0,m T3 and T4 should be tightly near mid-range or a bit higher. You appear to have some degree of hypothyroidism. See below re checking thyroid function. Problem may be rooted in not using iodized salt.

Please read the stickies found here: About the T Replacement Category

  • advice for new guys - need more info about you
  • things that damage your hormones
  • protocol for injections
  • finding a TRT doc

Evaluate your overall thyroid function by checking oral body temperatures as per the thyroid basics sticky. Thyroid hormone fT3 is what gets the job done and it regulates mitochondrial activity, the source of ATP which is the universal currency of cellular energy. This is part of the body’s temperature control loop. This can get messed up if you are iodine deficient. In many countries, you need to be using iodized salt. Other countries add iodine to dairy or bread.

KSman is simply a regular member on this site. Nothing more other than highly active.

I can be a bit abrupt in my replies and recommendations. I have a lot of ground to cover as this forum has become much more active in the last two years. I can’t follow threads that go deep over time. You need to respond to all of my points and requests as soon as possible before you fall off of my radar. The worse problems are guys who ignore issues re thyroid, body temperatures, history of iodized salt. Please do not piss people off saying that lab results are normal, we need lab number and ranges.

The value that you get out of this process and forum depends on your effort and performance. The bulk of your learning is reading/studying the suggested stickies.


#4

I only stopped T injections for a week, because I thought my E was high.

I will start to supplement with Vitamin D

On a prior lab test, only 1.5 weeks prior, my TSH was 0.825 (0.450-4.5), T4 5.3 (4.5-12.0), and T3 85 (71-180)

I see what you’re saying, but I don’t think I have hypothyroidism, i’m in the medical field and understand exactly what it is. I’m also very lean. Here are some more lab values

Date: 9/28/16
T4: 7.2 (4.5-12)
T3 uptake: 34 (24-39)
Free T4: 2.4 (1.2-4.9)

Date: 1/16/15
T4: 6.3 (4.5-12)
TSH: 1.57 (0.450-4.50)

I will take my temperatures and report back.

As for AI dosing:

BEFORE CRASH: Only took it AS NEEDED. Never had an issue with this and always felt dialed in. Usually every 1-2 weeks I took a .2mg anastrozole on about 150mg test a week.

First Crash to Most Recent Crash (mid may to Early july): I had high E2 symptoms with actual low E2, so I thought my anastrzole wasn’t working so I took a bunch, sporadically. Id say an average of 1mg a week for 6 weeks.

Last Crash: Last friday. It’s been 6 days since I took an .25mg adex, pharm grade. I FEEL like my E2 is high. I.e: bloating, no pumps, acne, very low libido, no wood, oily.

My protocol has only been consistent for 2 weeks now. It is 200mg Test E weekly, and 150mg deca weekly. Both split into twice weekly injections so about E3.5D. I’ve only been on the deca for 2 weeks but i’m dropping it so I have consistency.

Miscellaneous notes:

-Having extreme hair shedding, probably due to crashing my E for a period of time and the crazy amount of stress it caused me, never had an issue w this before and i’ve ran masteron
-Libido has took a major plunge in the last two days
-Extreme anxiety right now
-Haven’t felt the same since before the crash
-Seeing a doctor who prescribes my uncle TRT on the 20th, he gave me a prescription for blood work but i have yet to see him face to face

Questions for you:
-How long does it usually take for E2 to come back up to normal post crash with Anastrozole, assuming the anastrozole has been stopped? I’ve read 3-4 days, 1-2 weeks, 4-6 weeks.
-When should my next dose adex dose be? I don’t know if he will give me more bloods since i just took them. Also, I live in a state where privatemd labs is illegal so that is not an option.


#5

deca? well now you’re introducing more variables than just TRT which makes it difficult for anyone knowledgable on TRT to comment. In my experience on TRT high/low E2 is extremely hard to determine based on feel alone. I myself struggled and thought I knew my body best but bloodwork always showed otherwise. Bloodwork is key but sounds like that could be problematic for you. Weeks before your next blood test, stay very consistent with dosages and track meticulously so that you know exactly how to adjust/retest. I feel like a lot of it is mental when we obsess over it. I thought I was an adex overresponder only to find I was sitting at 45 E2 (range 20-42) slightly high but not crazy. Been on .25mg E3D for 3 months and feel balanced now and look forward to bloods next week to see where I am at


#6

It’s only been 2 weeks of it @ 150mg each week, but i’m cutting out the deca until I get my e2 in check.


#7

Upon waking temp: 97.6
20 mins later still fasted: 97.8
2pm: 98.5 (haven’t eaten in 6 hours)


#8

Went to my PCP today and she agreed to check my E2 with the Roche ECLIA method, so non sensitive. Will the two weeks of deca @ 150mg EW skew my E2 results?


#9

So it’s been 10 days since i’ve last taken any arimidex. I’ve dropped the Deca that I took for 2 weeks @ 150mg weekly. Current test protocol is 200mg weekly of Dragon Pharma Test E.

Libido is returning, no issues with getting hard at all, had wood last night BUT I had a full bladder and had to go the bathroom, no morning wood, feel quite bloated all the time (a high e2 and crashed e2 symptom for me), still not getting pumps at all, do have anxiety but no depression, nipples are slightly puffy with no sensitivity, hair is still shedding pretty bad

Waiting on my estradiol blood test results from Friday - however these might be skewed due to the deca.

UPDATE: E2 test came back at 59.9 with normal results being less than 39


#10

I find it hard to follow what you are on.

Deca is androgenic, though like 1/3 that of test.


#11

I’m on 200mg test e weekly. split between sunday and wednesday.

I started deca on July 1st, 150mg weekly, split between a sunday and wednesday shot (so 75mg each shot).

I stopped the Deca on July 12th because I needed to figure out my E2 situation.

I took my Estradiol blood test on July 14th. Results came back today 17th as 59.9 (<39 is normal)


#12

Have you read the stickies?
Your questions suggest not.

Half-life of anastrozole means that it would clear in 6 days.
Have you considered that you might be an anastrozole over-responder?

If you had labs based on a steady dose of anastrozole, we could have calculated a dose correction. E2=60 is horrible. Any sign of gyno? - a bit!

Generalized hair thinning can be low thyroid function, but your body temps rule that out.
Body temps are decent, maybe could be slightly better.
You should have mid-range or slightly higher T3, T4, fT3, fT4.
Thyroid lab ranges are useless.
fT3 is the active hormone and should normally be tested.

Your labs suggest a lack of iodine.
Using iodized salt?

Many would need 1mg anastrozole at time of each 100mg T injection. Over-responders would need 1/4mg with each 100mg T injection. The the latter and see how you feel in a week.


#13

I’ve read all the stickies. And yes, I AM a anastrozole responder. I stated previous protocol was .25mg anastrazole every 2-3 weeks on 120-160mg T a week split between two doses.

No sign of gyno or sensitivity, just some nipple puffiness. I wanted to take a 10-12 day break from Anastrazole due to the fact I keep crashing estrogen. Yesterday was 12 days OFF of anastrazole. My libido has been pretty good - but not my best. Still full but bloated and not getting any kind of contractions in the gym. Little anxiety, sleeping GREAT.

My labs E2=59.9 may be because of my two weeks of Deca use, it’s a 19-nor so it can skew E2 results. So, I received blood work on my own yesterday morning, full panel, E2 sensitive, and Total T. Will update with results when I receive them.

I am and HAVE been experiencing high e2 symptoms so I took .15mg anastrazole 5 hours AFTER my blood test. I am simply using the blood test to see how HIGH exactly my E2 is.

I am not using iodized salt

Seeing a TRT doc tomorrow morning, will update with results of that as well.


#14

Not using iodized salt: You have to get a source of iodine and it is important to have a known source of selenium as well.

Free T4: 2.4 (1.2-4.9)
or
Free T3 2.4 (1.2-4.9)

Please sample body temperatures for a while.

You need a steady T dosing that does not change. 120-160 not good enough.
Inject T subq with #29 1/2" 0.5ml insulin syringe.
And you need a steady but small amount of anastrozole.
Take both in doses twice a week.
Make a solution 1mg/ml anastrozole in vodka and take three drops, you need a dropper bottle.
Do E2 labs in 2-3 weeks.

If you get E2=30:
E2=22pg/ml is the target that works well for almost all guys.
new anastrozole dose = old dose X 30/22


#15

120-160mg was an average of the last 3 years. And i typically took .2mg adex every 2-3 weeks. Worked fantastic for me. I felt incredible.

My current protocol is

Sunday: 100mg test E
Wednesday: 100mg test E

July 7th: .2mg adex
July 8th: felt crashed - i know my crashed symptoms by paying attention to my body.
July 14th: bloods at doctor E=59.9, symptoms feel high (do remember i was in deca for 2 weeks @ 150mg weekly, dropped deca to have consistency)
July 19th: bloods on my own, TT and Sensitive E2 @ 7:45am, took 0.15mg adex 5 hours post blood test
July 20th: Today I still feel high e2 symptoms


#16

Still having high E2 symptoms, that last anastrazole dose didn’t make me feel any different. Though, it wasn’t my pharm grade stuff.

Waiting on my lab results that I took wednesday morning. Probably won’t get them till late next week.

Saw TRT doctor today. I was prescribed Test C 200mg/week, 500IU hcg/week, 1mg adex weekly. (Yes, I’m splitting T shots into two doses)

There’s no way i’m taking that much adex unless I feel that it warrants it based on bloods, going to start with 0.2mg 2x weekly.

Will update with my July 19th bloods in a few days. Holding off on taking any more adex despite my E2 symptoms.


#17

this was before i took ANY AI.

Since this blood test I’ve taken .1mg adex 5 hours post blood test

.125mg adex 3 days post blood test

and .25mg adex only july 24th around 2pm.

still haven’t noticed any effects, libido is pretty decent , still bloated, energy is good, no anxiety, depression, elevated mood.

@KSman