Karate People

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
When comparing grappling to the striking arts, several things are important to remember:
(1) Almost every fight begins with both guys on their feet.
(2) In competitions between grapplers and strikers, the strikers are usually barefoot. This rarely would happen in real fighting. Having a solid shoe (or steel-toed) makes a kick much more devestating.
(3) The strikers are forbidden, in competition, from throat strikes, eye gouges, and other such ‘goodies’. In combat with a BJJ guy, for ex, I’m going to drive my fingers right through his eyeballs. If I miss, I will secure a head grip and bite his throat through or bite off an ear (for starters). I’d rather take my chances with a judge and jury instead of being in a wheelchair for life, or dead.

HH

Um…with all due respect what makes you think that if the rules were changed a BJJ guy couldn’t “drive his fingers through your balls” as well as submit you 100 different way?

[/quote]

He could certainly try. His problem is, though, that he trains to close the gap first. My first move, as a striker, is to go immediately to a blinding or lethal strike. If he has trained that way also, then its a matter of who gets there first. Otherwise, my advantage.

The techniques I described were taught to young marines during WWII. It was assumed that all Japanese soldiers knew martial arts. However, most American soldiers were larger and with a longer reach, they therefore could strike first.

BTW: I have to study these techniques because of my size, Zeb. I am not bragging or anything like that, but I am 6’6" and 285. Anyone who fucks with me must be one serious MFer or psycho. In other words, I’d have to kill 'em to stop 'em.

HH

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Hi Travis7,

First let me say that I’ve not really seriously trained Karate per se. I do however know someone who has spent his entire life training in Martial arts, and his base art is Shotokan (trained under Master Oshima).

According to him, if Karate is indeed taught by an individual who truly has a deep level knowledge of the art and understands how to teach it, then Karate is very practical and effective in a street fight.

At the higher levels one learns to dissolve the external “form” and become more fluid and adaptive. In other words, the katas are and their applications are supposed to teach you how to use proper body mechanics to produce power, stability, etc… rather than relying on pure muscular strength. They are also designed to teach you invaluable mental, psychological, and yes, even spiritual truths.

In fact, if you get deep enough into any Martial art, the ultimate goal is the same. The human body is the human body and therefore there are really only so many ways that it can operate optimally. It therefore only makes sense that many people would eventually come to similar conclusions, or ways of doing things. Really the only difference is in their way of getting those principles across to their students.

Think about it this way, ask any good BJJ artist (or grappler for that matter) what their idea of optimal performance would be, and 9 times out of 10 their answer would resemble a seemingly effortless performance. The same thing would happen in every combat sport whether it be boxing, wrestling, Wing Chun, Muy Thai, etc…

As Dan John just wrote in his recent article “less is more”. Or in other words, optimal performance is usually the result of supreme efficiency.

Supreme efficiency can only be developed through endless repetition of movement until the movements become second nature, or in other words, you don’t have to think to do it. This is the reason why traditional martial arts stress the importance of Kata practice.

Because if the structure is off by even a fraction of an inch, then it may break down when under pressure. Perfection is the goal, and this approach is honestly one of the things that I feel a lot of MMA stylists could learn from Traditional Martial artists.

Good training,

Sentoguy[/quote]

QFT.

I’m with Zeb.

Most forms of karate – particularly tkd – are not good for either fighting or self-defense. Of the karate styles, kyoshikushin [sp] is the best. If you’re going to do a punchy-kicky martial art, do muay thai or just straight up western boxing. For most people, karate gives the illusion of ability, not real fighting ability.

The problem is the lack of resistance in most karate styles, and that most fights start with or involve grabbing.

I don’t believe that all arts get you to the same place, or that all arts are equally good. That’s a load of crap. Some arts suck and some arts get you no where, even for the “masters.” Advanced people in different arts are . … different.

Judo, BJJ, Muay thai, and similar arts are where its at.

The real confusion here is in the language and in the first person experiences of the people discussing this.

Traditional training starts in very staid impractical fashion. This is to make it of use to the least possibly gifted students. The guys with zero co-ordination or physical conditioning. It is why traditional arts have such a huge demographic. Some schools forget this and don’t progress to more demanding and Practical methods. Some, however, do.

Training in Kata is not performing it start to finish, that’s just a sport - it is dissecting the movements and seeing how they are to be applied and then practicing those applications repeatedly with others. This is called Bunkai - many schools don’t teach it at all!

The most arty farty looking hand waving in Katas is usually, when analysed, a brutal technique. In most schools few people if any realise this.

So, as usual in these conversations about the relative merits of martial arts - it’s all about the instructor, not the art!

Hi ZEB,

I understand where you are coming from and understand what you mean by “only having so many hours in a day and if you want to train to actually defend yourself in a street confrontation you should do so under very realistic conditions.” Yes, you are most certainly correct about this, and I wasn’t trying to suggest that MMA stylists spend all of their time practicing without resistance, or in preconcieved patterns.

What I was trying to suggest is that MMA stylists could learn a thing or two from Traditional Martial Artists about the importance of really perfecting their techniques. Not just doing them arbitrarily, but instead really attempting to make them as efficient (perfect) as possible each and every time they practice them (in a skill context).

Resistance is indeed necessary, but it seems like a lot of people have actually gone to the other extreme and spend very little time perfecting technique. One must find a healthy balance between technique practice, and more realistic forms of application (sparring, scenario drills, working techniques against resistance, etc…).

As I said before, and several have agreed with me on, katas were not meant to simply be dead patterns to be blindly repeated. Yes, there are possible applications of techniques to be found in katas, but the real treasure is in learning how to use the body optimally. Once again, this must be taught by a master instructor who has themselves found out these “secrets” through endless hours, days, years, even decades of practice.

For instance the first form in Wing Chun (sil lum tao) is supposed to teach the student the structural principles that are essential to making the art work in real time. These principles must be “internalized” in the practitioner, so that they can adapt and flow in real time against a real opponent. Once these structural principles are understood the practitioner can do away with the “form” and still make whatever they do “work”.

These structural and power principles can then be applied while performing any exterior movement. So, if the practitioner decided that they thought that boxing/kickboxing was a more realistic, efficient system of striking, then they could still utilize the principles that they learned from the “forms” while performing boxing/kickboxing movements.

Good training,

Sentoguy

[quote]Irish Daza wrote:
The most arty farty looking hand waving in Katas is usually, when analysed, a brutal technique. In most schools few people if any realise this.

[quote]

You, sir, know your stuff very well. Not too many people even know what a bunkai is. And if you don’t know your bunkai, you don’t know the kata.

For those of you who think judo and bjj is where its at, let me ask you a question. Those who beat the grapplers in UFC/MMA style fighting typically hail from which style? I will give you a hint. I have a sandan in it, Goju Ryu.

It definitely helps, as long as you don’t set unreasonable expectations.
It’s not One Technique To Rule Them All, it’s just one more weapon in the arsenal.

I think it is the westerners actually who seem to believe the viability of kata in this day and age. It is really strange sometimes.
If doing the traditional martial arts gives something to you then great. That does not mean they are great for combat or good against a professional mma fighter. I have never met a tradiional martial artist when put into a gym/ring session with kickboxers or mma or even full-contact karateka has he done well. They have never pretended to have great ability in such circumstances. It is a good learning experience. The years of doing their art compared to the guy who has years in a k-1 gym and shooto is never a comparison.
The Kyokushin guys and various offshoots have the least trouble though. It is no surprise that kata is a small part of their curriculum, and sparring, mitt, bag work is a large part of their training.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

Again, our issue is language.
A “traditional” school should, and some do, have pad work, free sparing, ground work etc in it’s curriculum. They all used too.

Something has been lost over the years. It’s the “get rich quick”, “bored now, get a new one”, “Big Brother Famous in five minutes” crap that we have going on now adays. Jesus, I was at agym the other day where they had the students doing knuckle press ups on the mats! Tell prospective students they are going to have to toughen up by punching a Makiwara, never mind a sand/gravel bucket, and watch them disappear to the Combat Dance Academy down the street. They even had to introduce gloves for MMA because those guys hadn’t conditioned their hands properly. Over time instructors have allowed the message to get diluted to the point where a lot of the message has been lost. Go back to the basics and fundamentals and you’ll have a hard time to find an art that has survived hundreds if not thousands of years, without some serious merit.

The problem isn’t an inefficent art, it’s inefficent instructors. You’ll find crap MMA gyms too - it’s the people that make the difference.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

What I was trying to suggest is that MMA stylists could learn a thing or two from Traditional Martial Artists about the importance of really perfecting their techniques. Not just doing them arbitrarily, but instead really attempting to make them as efficient (perfect) as possible each and every time they practice them (in a skill context).[/quote]

In the first few UFC’s there were almost no rules. You could not eye gouge or fish hook, other than that it was ALL allowed, even the traditional martial artists favorite talking point: groin strikes!

And what did we see?

We saw traditinal ma after tradtional ma go down in defeat?

And why?

Because the basic techniques of the traditional martial artists don’t really transfer very well to actual combat.

They are antiquated and a waist of time. But those steeped in tradition continue to do them no matter. Honestly, not only don’t you need them in order to be efficient in the street. But…a good argument could be launched that they actually hinder your performance in many ways. Not the least of which is that they prohibit you from actually learning something that can help you in the street…so much time in a day you know…

Look, I know where you are coming from and I’m not trying to be insulting. But there are plenty of young guys who read this forum and I don’t want any of them to walk away thinking that they should join a Karate school because they need to learn how to defend themselves.

They need to learn to Box, Wrestle and partake in any other realistic form of combat…But they should clearly stay away from most traditional marital arts classes.

Again, I apologize if the above seems insulting to you, that was not my intent.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

BTW: I have to study these techniques because of my size, Zeb. I am not bragging or anything like that, but I am 6’6" and 285. Anyone who fucks with me must be one serious MFer or psycho. In other words, I’d have to kill 'em to stop 'em.

HH

[/quote]

Well…your size is what will stop them far more than your TKD. At least that’s my opinion.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

BTW: I have to study these techniques because of my size, Zeb. I am not bragging or anything like that, but I am 6’6" and 285. Anyone who fucks with me must be one serious MFer or psycho. In other words, I’d have to kill 'em to stop 'em.

HH

Well…your size is what will stop them far more than your TKD. At least that’s my opinion.

[/quote]

No argument. That’s why I practice Kina Mutai, leg kicks, and so forth.

One trouble that no one has addressed is availability. Karate/TKD schools are prolific but how many other styles are around? Unless you live in a large urban area, you’ll be out of luck. So, the choice really amounts to Karate or nothing, for most people.

Even if there’s a BJJ school or similar in an urban area, what if its an hour away? You have to commit to that drive 2 or 3 times per week, when just about everyone’s time is limited.
Most won’t do it.

I think the choice of Karate or nothing is much more realistic, for most people.

HH

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
When comparing grappling to the striking arts, several things are important to remember:
(1) Almost every fight begins with both guys on their feet.
(2) In competitions between grapplers and strikers, the strikers are usually barefoot. This rarely would happen in real fighting. Having a solid shoe (or steel-toed) makes a kick much more devestating.
(3) The strikers are forbidden, in competition, from throat strikes, eye gouges, and other such ‘goodies’. In combat with a BJJ guy, for ex, I’m going to drive my fingers right through his eyeballs. If I miss, I will secure a head grip and bite his throat through or bite off an ear (for starters). I’d rather take my chances with a judge and jury instead of being in a wheelchair for life, or dead.

HH

Um…with all due respect what makes you think that if the rules were changed a BJJ guy couldn’t “drive his fingers through your balls” as well as submit you 100 different way?

He could certainly try. His problem is, though, that he trains to close the gap first. My first move, as a striker, is to go immediately to a blinding or lethal strike. If he has trained that way also, then its a matter of who gets there first. Otherwise, my advantage.

The techniques I described were taught to young marines during WWII. It was assumed that all Japanese soldiers knew martial arts. However, most American soldiers were larger and with a longer reach, they therefore could strike first.

BTW: I have to study these techniques because of my size, Zeb. I am not bragging or anything like that, but I am 6’6" and 285. Anyone who fucks with me must be one serious MFer or psycho. In other words, I’d have to kill 'em to stop 'em.

HH

[/quote]

And a fat as fuck 20% fat, what do you do ? Roll on them ?

As I recall, in the early UFCs, Royce “I’m the Suckiest Gracie and I Still Pwn J00” Gracie beat most comers. This exposed a HUGE gap, a complete range of engagement which most martial artist’s had never considered.

Now that is out in the open, and we have been exposed to it, only the can’t-be-taken-down crowd has an excuse to ignore it.

From my experience, there is a good bit of crappy crotty out there. However, there is still good. Since I began TMA (specifically, Isshinryu Karate) I have trained at every range of engagement, including BJJ (outside instructors brought in).

So have I. In our training, at our own school, we had capoeira, bjj, judo and all of the other art guys come in, so we could all improve each other.

[quote]Dr. Stig wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
When comparing grappling to the striking arts, several things are important to remember:
(1) Almost every fight begins with both guys on their feet.
(2) In competitions between grapplers and strikers, the strikers are usually barefoot. This rarely would happen in real fighting. Having a solid shoe (or steel-toed) makes a kick much more devestating.
(3) The strikers are forbidden, in competition, from throat strikes, eye gouges, and other such ‘goodies’. In combat with a BJJ guy, for ex, I’m going to drive my fingers right through his eyeballs. If I miss, I will secure a head grip and bite his throat through or bite off an ear (for starters). I’d rather take my chances with a judge and jury instead of being in a wheelchair for life, or dead.

HH

Um…with all due respect what makes you think that if the rules were changed a BJJ guy couldn’t “drive his fingers through your balls” as well as submit you 100 different way?

He could certainly try. His problem is, though, that he trains to close the gap first. My first move, as a striker, is to go immediately to a blinding or lethal strike. If he has trained that way also, then its a matter of who gets there first. Otherwise, my advantage.

The techniques I described were taught to young marines during WWII. It was assumed that all Japanese soldiers knew martial arts. However, most American soldiers were larger and with a longer reach, they therefore could strike first.

BTW: I have to study these techniques because of my size, Zeb. I am not bragging or anything like that, but I am 6’6" and 285. Anyone who fucks with me must be one serious MFer or psycho. In other words, I’d have to kill 'em to stop 'em.

HH

And a fat as fuck 20% fat, what do you do ? Roll on them ?[/quote]

Nah, I kick them in the head with my Dr. Marten’s.

If you fantasize about guys rolling around on you, that’d be another site, little man.

Me being somewhat fat is a result of illness, cumwad. Read the Over 35 section. What your excuse? Cumwad.

HH

Hi ZEB,

No offense taken. I honestly have nothing to gain by having others train in Traditional MA. Nor was I suggesting that they train in Traditional MA if their priority is real combat, or sport combat for that matter.

I wasn’t trying to argue that Traditional MA is superior to MMA. If that’s what you took my posts as suggesting then I apologize for being unclear. My point was simply that MMA stylists could learn things from Traditional MA stylists. The same is of course true the other way around as well. Traditional MA could certainly learn a lot from MMA as well.

I also agree that there are a lot of crappy TMA schools out there and that if a person had a chance to train at either a crappy TMA place or a good MMA place, then the MMA place would be the obvious better choice. On the other hand, there are really good TMA places out there. Yes, they’re less readily available, and you really have to know what to look for when choosing them. But they do exist. And yes, you can become proficient in actual combat by training with a good TMA instructor.

As far as TMA techniques not working. Well, perhaps you’ve once again mistaken movements like “X blocks”, or chambering the hand at the hip to be the types of techniques TMA teaches. And sadly, in many cases this is the case. But, most of these schools (and instructors) simply don’t get what they are teaching.

Good TMA teaches the same exact “basic” techniques as every other combative art out there. Striking (punches, kicks, elbows, knees, headbutts, etc…), grappling (throws/takedowns, joint locks/breaks, controls, etc…), weapons, cerebral self defense and some even teach so called “dirty” fighting (I’d prefer the term street specific/effective).

Once again there are only so many ways that the body can operate optimally. And only so many tools that a human being has at their disposal. These principles are inherent in all forms of MA (at a higher level of understanding).

Let me give you an example. A couple years ago I attended a Martial arts weekend long camp/seminar that was put on by my instructor. During the weekend we worked on everything from wrestling takedowns (one of the black belts has been coaching and competing in wrestling since he was a little kid), Judo (one of the black belts is a 4th Dan in Judo and also competed), Dynamic Combat (Rich Ryan once ran the largest WC school in the midwest, and much of DCM is based on principles he learned from WC), Sento (Walt Lysak is an 8th degree black belt in Jiu Jitsu, 7th degree black belt in Pankration, 5th degree black belt under Joe Lewis, and the list goes on), Kickboxing (Joe Lewis is one of the most knowledgeable people on the planet when it comes to boxing and kickboxing).

The funny thing is that the same basic principles were present in each and every technique, principle and drill that we did. Did the techniqes look identical? No of course not. But the same principles of body mechanics, leverage, and proper structural alignment were always present.

Good training,

Sentoguy

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Dr. Stig wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
When comparing grappling to the striking arts, several things are important to remember:
(1) Almost every fight begins with both guys on their feet.
(2) In competitions between grapplers and strikers, the strikers are usually barefoot. This rarely would happen in real fighting. Having a solid shoe (or steel-toed) makes a kick much more devestating.
(3) The strikers are forbidden, in competition, from throat strikes, eye gouges, and other such ‘goodies’. In combat with a BJJ guy, for ex, I’m going to drive my fingers right through his eyeballs. If I miss, I will secure a head grip and bite his throat through or bite off an ear (for starters). I’d rather take my chances with a judge and jury instead of being in a wheelchair for life, or dead.

HH

Um…with all due respect what makes you think that if the rules were changed a BJJ guy couldn’t “drive his fingers through your balls” as well as submit you 100 different way?

He could certainly try. His problem is, though, that he trains to close the gap first. My first move, as a striker, is to go immediately to a blinding or lethal strike. If he has trained that way also, then its a matter of who gets there first. Otherwise, my advantage.

The techniques I described were taught to young marines during WWII. It was assumed that all Japanese soldiers knew martial arts. However, most American soldiers were larger and with a longer reach, they therefore could strike first.

BTW: I have to study these techniques because of my size, Zeb. I am not bragging or anything like that, but I am 6’6" and 285. Anyone who fucks with me must be one serious MFer or psycho. In other words, I’d have to kill 'em to stop 'em.

HH

And a fat as fuck 20% fat, what do you do ? Roll on them ?

Nah, I kick them in the head with my Dr. Marten’s.

If you fantasize about guys rolling around on you, that’d be another site, little man.

Me being somewhat fat is a result of illness, cumwad. Read the Over 35 section. What your excuse? Cumwad.

HH

[/quote]

I don’t have one seeing as I ain’t fat and have more lbm than you. Bellend.

Do it for the fun and conditioning.

If you are really worried about getting into a fight and getting hurt carry a 45 and be done with it.