Forrester-
I’m fairly lucky with my instructor. He was state kickboxing champ 2 years in a row and quit, undefeated. He’s training another state kickboxing champ right now (just won the belt last Saturday). He’s also a badass grappler who can dominate everyone that comes in, including collegiate wrestlers. He just happens to be a 5th degree black belt in karate.
I would never fuck with him on the street. I’ve seen what he can do.
“It’s not the martil art; It’s the martial artist.”
I know a 24 yo lifelong boxer who just beat a 3x high school greco champ… via an armber… Ive also seen said boxer(150 lbs) knock the shit out of people who outweighed by 100 lbs. My bjj instructor (was promoted last month) weighs about 170 and has competed and won in grappling tournaments against many former and current ufc competitors. Then there’s my straight blast gym jeet kun do instructor whos theory is “No Belts No Bowing No Titles No Ritual No Bull Shit”… list goes one…
and yes, wrestling and boxing are martial arts.
There seems to be some confusion over the ‘arena’ in which this hypothetical fight takes place. The best fighters I know, never sqaure up and ‘take it outside’. If they see trouble coming, they’ll knock the guy out before most would consider the situation dangerous.
And on the odd occasion the two guys are squaring up, with space all around and room to move they’ll still gain advantage by asking some inane question and knocking the opponent out whilst he’s considering his reply.
Once your past that first punch, that golden moment to end it, be prepared for it to get messy and without exception if the guys are similarly sized, it’ll go to the floor.
Me, I’ve been there done that,and of all the ‘martial arts’ the two of most use were the ones that taught me how to punch hard and fast (boxing) and grappling (judo).But the most useful tool was the ability to assess the situation and not be afraid to react to it.
Beyond that in a ‘real’ situation nothing else matters - you either hit them when they’re not expecting it, then run, or you fuck it up and hit the floor.
So in theory any man can ‘beat’another given the ‘golden shot’ and the ability to judge a situation.
I saw a World Champion Middleweight Boxer squaring up to a friend of mine (who by definition was a far less proficient boxer). My friend hit him with a right lead to the chin whilst Pro Champ was still shoving and shouting how he was going to ‘fuck’ my friend ‘up’. End of fight.
In the ring it would have been a different story and so it is with ‘street fighting’ and ‘bar fighting’, its not so much the physical that determines the outcome, rather the element of suprise, contrived or not.
But all things being equal, a good big’ un will always beat a good little’un.
For what its worth.
Dom - Bas Rutten is major practioner of Pancrase and before that a champion Thai-boxer.
To people who think that they could beat an opponent twice their size do not take this lightly. Bob Sapp who is a fairly recent competitor in MMA and ex-NFL player almost beat one of the best Heavy weight MMA fighters of all time in Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira in only his 3rd Pride outing!
Nogueira who is around 230lbs was not fighting an opponent twice his size as Bob ‘The Beast’ was around 350lbs at the time, but only just managed to squeeze the win through super human effort 4 mins into the second round after taking a battering.
While Bob Sapp is no ordinary ‘Joe’ and can bench around 660 he was relatively a complete novice in comparison to ‘Minotauro’ a man who has only ever lost 2 out of 23 bouts in MMA competition.
As for Karate as an effective combat martial art I would say it is pretty redundant as it incoporates no grappling and its punching is very limited as you lose so much power from not being able to turn at the shoulders. Which only leaves kicking which as most fighters knows leaves you extremely exposed to take-downs and counters and can only be utilised at long ranges which rarely occur in a street fight. Except if using low kicks which Karate doesn’t emphasise anyway! No for kicking I would choose Thai-Boxing as it uses knees and specialises in low kicks and for the same reason as Boxing…
Boxing is in my opinion better for the street as your striking with your hands allow you to remain mobile at all times and is a freestyle full contact form in its essence.
Wrestling is great for control and takedowns, and in a fight most wrestlers can gain position to ground and pound, but they lack the submissions of Brazillian Ju-Jutsu or Vale-Tudo.
The best style is one that takes account of all the above and use kicking, boxing and submissions. And that is the evolution that has brought us to the modern mixed martial artist.
So take this into account, then add in the size and strength element and you can have a far guess of who’s going to win a fight. But you also have to factor in the heart of a fighter.
Knight,
I never stated that any college student was “intoxicated”. This illogical assumption on your part is a far greater stretch than my assumptions after actually watching several Karate practioners lose in person under uncontrolled conditions. And viewing several years of mixed martial arts events on television.
Perhaps your “mythical” drunken college students are getting in the way of my facts!
I think the whole concept of “traditional martial arts” is actually a misnomer. If you check out the history of MA throughout Asia, most of the “traditional” styles went through dramatic transformations after the rise of Confucius philosophy. Suddenly, the ability to stay alive and defeat an opponent in a deadly conflict took second place; philosophy, structure, and ritual became more important, as did allegiance to the rank system, school lineage, etc. Thus the rise of belts, katas, watered-down competition, etc.
But if you’re lucky enough to find a school that never “evolved,” you’re in luck. Just don’t expect to find stuff tailored to any sort of tournament structure. No ancient warrior was going to roll around on the ground for thirty minutes waiting for an arm bar. Is ground fighting important? Absolutely, and probably much more than most fighters are just beginning to realize. But no one is going to stay in the guard when his opponent is biting, fish-hooking, ripping flesh, poking eyes, etc. And yeah, I’m sure the UFC guys could do the same; but that being said, you’ve suddenly got a whole different fight on your hands (like handing boxers billy clubs).
That being said, most of the truly effective ancient arts start with the premise that the opponent is bigger, stronger, and faster than you (if he wasn’t, you wouldn’t need to learn anything anyway!). All the techniques are there simply to overcome those advantages.
Plus, don’t forget the most underrated quality of all: aggression. Watch two dogs fighting…sure, it’s nice to be big, but it’s often the smaller, most aggressive dog that dominates.
“very limited as you lose so much power from not being able to turn at the shoulders.”
the reason they don’t extend at the shoulders is because you loose power on those straight hits. a bare kuckle karate punch is going to do alot more damage then a bare kuckle boxing punch. boxing is more pushing, while karate is more penetrating.
also theres differant forms of karate and some do use more circular motions. at anyrate, karate kicks are damn good, even if you only kick low. they aren’t specially made to kick high or anything, knee and stomach level are the most commonly practiced.
however you are right in that most karate places teach little to no grappling (although a few do). this can be resolved by fighting against grapplers and learning to avoid and beat the clinch, or taking up something else in addition (i take judo too)
Im checking out a kempo club right now to see if I like it. They combine kempo with Small-Circle Jujitsu (Professor Wally Jay), Modern Arnis (Professor Remy Presas), and Wei Kuen Do (Grandmaster Leo Fong). Im just not sure if I want it because I think its too kata based rather than sparring based.
ZEB, you worked at a bar. Should I assume otherwise?
Whatever, I’m pretty much out of spit and vinegar. I give in.
DI
Knight,
You are tapping out so soon?
;~)
DI
Too many of the martial arts have lost their way. To much peace and love. To much “art”, and not enough “martial”.
I’m all for “peace and love”, but some times you just have to throw down. And you better have some real skills when you do.
I’ve been training various sorts of martial arts for the past year. I have fought people my size and people bigger/smaller. One time I had to fight someone that was 6-3 and 275. All it took was a few well placed low kicks, and a sweep kick. Then I made him tap out. So, I suppose that you can fight anyone of any size if you have the smarts. But I’d agree with what one of you said ( think it was creed) that hand work is the most usefull on the street, then grappling. UFC/Pride fighting is a great example of this. If you haven’t seen one of those fights, go to blockbuster and rent one.
6-3 275? was this guy mostly lean mass? or mostly fat? yes, it does matter, because your conclusion based on this example is that “I suppose that you can fight anyone of any size if you have the smarts”. can you take down a 6-3 275 wwf type guy i.e. athletic and low b.f.? if you can then might agree with your statement.
Dom there is no way that a karate reverse punch is more powerful than a boxing straight. A look at the mechanics involved would tell you that. The boxing punch travels further which means the punch is travelling faster by the time it makes impact. F=ma the longer the path the more time the object has to accelerate, the greater the force developed.
Putting it another way punching is a rotation around the vertical axis of the body. The arms and shoulders (or not as is the case with karate) are merely used to transfer that rotational force (torque) to the target. The larger the lever arm (perpendicular distance from force to axis of rotation) for the same force, the greater the torque.
So by turning (extending) at the shoulders you increase the lever arm and generate more torque for the same amount of force applied.
Try and throw a straight punch at a bag standing at a normal distance and then repeat the effort but this time standing twice as close. Notice anything?
Of all the people I know that practice some form of martial art (and that’s quite a few) boxers or people that punch with boxing mechanics invariably hit harder pound for pound.
If I’m not mistaken, Royce Gracie, weighing 176 pounds (soaking wet) did pretty well against 240 pounds of roided aggession, called Kimo, in the UFC. Actually, Royve did pretty well against all these huge laboratory freaks.
I’ll agree that most martial artists are nothing more than mystical knobs, but the guys who are the real deal… ARE the real deal.
Ok, sorry about the lack of paragraph breaks in my previous post, I even caused Cupcake to collapse into a gibbering, twitching heap from the eyestrain that was exacerbated by the gargantuan paragraph that I maliciously inflicted on the t-peeps.
I am truly sorry… I thought I had to use an html code or some crap… Ok, yes I am stupid laugh it up, hardy har har.
Anyway back to the thread subject, Ko and Bosco were correct in the fact that alot of places are far too peacefull in thier training and alot of various martial art forms are too traditional and more art than martial. Bruce Lee came to the same conclusion in his time and argued against traditions, fixed forms, and the preoccupation with rank and structure enforced by the older practitioners. Tradition can be good in alot of ways but if it prevents positive change it has obviously lost it’s value.
Has anyone heard of Wei Kuen do?
To … whoever you are
You are quite right in saying that Royce Gracie 176lb beat Kimo 240lb in UFC III. However Royce was so beat up after that fight that he couldn’t carry on in the tournament and had to pull out. What if Kimo HAD been twice his size? A 352lb Kimo would have annialated Royce and I challenge anyone to disagree.
These are at least some conclusions that can be drawn from all the opinions.
Size Matters! The bigger and stronger you are the more chance you have of defeating your opponent. (no brainer huh).
Many traditional martial artists may not be all that great at defending themselves on the streets.
For a martial artist to be truly effective on the street he needs to incorporate some form of grappling.
Striking with your hands is more effective than striking with your feet in a street confrontation.
Those who train more realistically do better in a street confrontation than those who do not.
The person who is truly trained both mentally and physically will usually walk away, if possible, from a street confrontation.
Thanks for all the great comments. This subject gets a lot of coverage in here for a reason. It is always interesting when two people square off to find out which one is the best!
This was fun.