T Nation

Just Lost My Virginity at 23


Not to suck your dick or anything but you do seem like a rather well spoken person, at least from the video. Do that with some confidence. It ain’t rocket science. I’d like to think I’m making sense but then again, I am a 19 year old kid, who am I to give you life/relationship advice?

Now this is extra funny cause I’m going through your previous posts and dang… At least there’s some degree of improvement since 2015?


In a lot of ways yes it has improved. I am somewhat intelligent I like to think and I do speak eloquently and can be a charmer, but I just feel like it still isn’t working completely. There’s a missing element in the formula


Just throwing this out there…

Seriously tho, [quote=“dave670, post:142, topic:225917”]
There’s a missing element in the formula

Not a missing element, but the addition of an element… it’s the peach fuzz above your top lip. Girls don’t like sex without kissing, and no girl wants to kiss a peach.

  1. shave everything and look like a little baby awwww
  2. wait years until i grow a full beard

Two roads diverge in a wood


Why do you assume women want what you want in a man?

Not every girl likes facial hair or older men.


I hope not, but I can assure you I do not want a man


Then quit projecting such odd notions that women don’t want a clean shaven man. Also, you’re 23 and look about 23.


Bless you for thinking so. It is an oasis in the desert of my physical insecurity




I know its the interwebs and all that, but you should absolutely never joke like that.

Seriously dude.


I never thought you were a troll ever since your first thread on this topic. I am not sure if you remember me from the other thread, but I did post at length in there specifically because the issues being discussed hit home with me.

Before I go ahead, I ask only out of curiosity. Do you you lift or engage in any other physical activities? I only ask because I think it’s peculiar that you post on this forum because there are forums out there specifically for people with depression and other mental health problems and relationship-related issues. It’s fine that you post here. I am just curious about he matter.

Anyway, although I respect the men in here who brought up the matter of self pity and bring up an example of a mutilated man with a pleasant demeanor, I don’t think the example is fitting in this situation. Again, I respect those who have brought this example up; I just don’t think it relates to depression and anger resulting from lack of female companionship. I consider being mutilated and lack of a woman to both be miserable experiences. The mutilation does severely negatively alter one’s health and appearance and might even result in constant or near-constant pain, what I think people would consider more serious matters than lack of a woman.

However, as I’ve said several times in this board, and in the other thread, I don’t think there is much out there that can make a man angrier than lack of a woman–for real! It’s a maddening experience and I think your behavior on here is consistent with the experience considering the constant pondering, introspection, wandering, lack of hope, and self-deprecation. That’s what womanless men are prone to. Their minds race with an endless stream of thoughts about how they will find a woman and why they don’t have one.

So no, you’re not nuts generally. But you are indeed going nuts from this problem of yours, which I empathize with. As I said before, the angriest periods of my life were womanless ones.

You might benefit from getting psychotherapy until you get this area of your life under control; that is, find a woman!

I think you’re an ordinary looking person with ordinary characteristics. So, with that in mind, of course you are not going to have to fight gorgeous women off with sticks, despite some trendy notion that even ordinary men can “date up” so long as they have enough game. Some disagree with me, but I say most men would make their lives easier by going out with women who match them. That is, if a man is a so-called five (as corny as rating people is), he can save himself trouble and embarrassment and disappointment by going for another five. Beautiful women know the game, and of course they see an ordinary man in front of them when they see one! Of course there are exceptions but that’s how it is for most people. Same goes for socioeconomic status. It’s highly unlikely that a pipe fitter is going to wind up with a woman from a powerful family of lawyers, doctors, and financiers.

But you are far from disqualified in finding a mate considering that these days I see on a regular basis very homely and/or obese or fat people dating, marrying, and reproducing. And they certainly don’t have game! I’ve been married for two years and have a kid on the way this coming summer and I do not have "game "and I’m also not slick, not unusually talented, and not loaded, nor do I come from a powerful family. You know, I’m probably like most on this board and in the real world who have women. Get this through your head! I don’t think you will though!

I’d like to write more but I have to go now.


Do yourself a favor and remove that distasteful meme with YOUR face on it from the internet!


Sorry, I thought it was kind of funny and would help dispel any notion that I am conceited. It is gone.


Thanks for an insightful reply. A lot to address here but I’ll do my best and start from the top.

I’ve never consistently worked out but I was never sitting on the couch either. From 14-18 I was a middle distance runner in high school. Never the best but it kept me in shape. I hope to run again, but probably not high volume because I’ve read enough to conclude its nuts unless you are training for the Olympics.

I bloomed late so once I got older it was easier to build muscle mass. I did several physical jobs including moving and a stint as a roofer, during which time I hauled shingles and sheet metal with far larger and bulky men. For some strange reason I am strong for my size even though I don’t pack a ton of dense muscle mass. Go figure. I suspect that if I did consistently start working out and being serious about it I could get jacked. Some people already say I’m built, but they’re skinny so I don’t take it too seriously. I fluctuate between being skinny and more built but it’s evening out.

The reason I post here is, oddly enough, partially because a lot of people told me not to and said I was talking to meatheads. I fucked around for about a week on a PUA forum and even shorter on the incel reddit, the amount of mixed opinions and broscience almost drove me insane and eventually I realized they had no clue what they were talking about. Also quite hostile at times.

Enter T-Nation because what is manlier than testosterone? And yet I am fully aware that being a man =/= high testosterone so I think it’s a balance of the outer hard core and your inner development. Still working on both. I have a high IQ (not that that matters) and a pretty insightful interest in social dynamics and I want to try to use them to my advantage.

You are right about the anger and frustration, I know both men and women are sexual but the frustrated part seems almost inherent to being male. When I am not getting laid or it seems impossible to find female companionship I don’t get sad and buy ice cream and binge watch Golden Girls and cry (or whatever it is you binge watch and cry), I get mad. My neighbor fucks a different girl almost every night, and I bought both earplugs and a pair of hunting ear protectors just so i don’t have to listen to it. Some of the nights i went out and got drunk and shot my mouth off the most (which I don’t make a habit of) were nights I overheard it, was seething, and just left. For some reason I found it both infuriating and motivating. The video linked above talks about energy dynamic and I think PART of it is learning to use that drive to have flow in your interactions with women. The trick is to not betray it or you seem like a creep. Some young ladies i work with call me a creep, I think they may have been joking but I am not sure.

As far as being mutilated / disfigured, that was the general brief consensus of the reddit board, that I am average looking and not brutally disfigured like some of them claimed to be, and as a result they hated me and called me a Chad, which is a guy who pretends to be “incel” (which I still don’t even think is an actual thing). Some ladies even messaged me, said i was decent looking and to do myself a favor and get off the board. So I did.

I suffer from depression at times but that’s something dating coaches or whatever have even addressed in counseling men; sometimes the depression is clinical but in my case it stems more from actual things (or lack of them) in life. Companionship seems to get more important in age. Until 18 just jerking off is fine or banging a girl in high school if you are lucky but at 23 I need that connection, and some of the times I felt even close to it were the happiest in my life.


I’m a therapist and I absolutely wade right into can’t-get-a-woman issues, which has me addressing things that are completely within my purview - namely depression, anxiety, and social skill deficits. I’ve been working with adults for three years now and I have to say that my record as a behind the curtains wing man is pretty good.

Having “average” looks is sort of a non-statement, since men are rated on a couple of different scales with looks being more or less important to different women. Power, self-discipline, perceived ability to protect - these are equally, if not more, important to women. You say you have a high IQ - good. This will raise your aggregate desirability. When I was young and dating I noticed that I attracted more desirable men/boys in small group situations than when I was alone or in overwhelming crowds (e.g. bars). This is because I have some powerful group mojo - I’m animated, smart, and funny when I’m comfortable. It makes me more attractive than my looks alone do. Now that I’m older and more confident I can bring that quality to one-on-one situations, so people (men) see something more like “librarian with a wild, unpredictable streak and a terrific body” than “plain girl with a decent body.” As time goes on they discover that I am additionally earnest and pretty good-natured, at which point they seem to want to introduce me to their families. Even for men, who are more visual, looks alone don’t determine attractiveness.

When I work with someone who is struggling with depression and bitterness the procedure is to check in (“how was your week?”) and then sort of do a Monday morning review of the big game (I mean this in a “life” sense, not in the PUA sense). Maybe he talked to someone he liked at xyz place, but in the end said goodbye without trying to arrange seeing her again because “I wasn’t sure if she’d want to” and if this has come up in other contexts we talk about his tendency to speculate what people are thinking, but always negatively, then we consider that it is not his watch to defend against unwanted dates; it’s hers. And also, most people are flattered to be politely asked if they’d like to grab a drink sometime/go skiing/check out the whatever they’ve been talking about.

So I second the therapy suggestion. Your posts indicate it would be a good avenue for you to pursue, and in my experience it can be helpful. Certainly it can’t hurt.


Tremendous post.

So I am decidedly NOT a professional therapist, but just throwing some anecdotal experience into the mix to back this up: when I was a little younger than OP (18-21) this was pretty much the way my collegiate dating life went. I didn’t so much as kiss a girl until I was a 21-year-old senior on spring break, but that long wait was at least partially due to what Emily described in this post: my late-teen self saw all 18-20 year-old girls, even relatively average-looking ones, as this gorgeous, unattainable thing and honestly never really thought “Wait, what if they think I’m attractive too?” There were probably several times throughout college where I left a potential date on the table because the mere possibility of rejection made me feel safer just waiting for something to happen than actually saying “Hey, I have a lot of fun with you, would you like to…”

When it came to girls in those teenage years (although this did not extend to any other walk of my life; school, starred in sports, everything else was great), I always defaulted to the negative assumption that they were probably not interested, even with girls that I found attractive who I walked to class and had lunch with, who smiled at me and laughed at my jokes and probably would have been receptive if I’d ever thought “You know, maybe she…”

Once I got over that initial hump - my first girlfriend, who I dated for six months, which isn’t very long in the big scheme of things - approaching and talking to women became a thousand times easier. Confidence is a funny thing. The validation of “having a girlfriend” had gotten me past that hangup and knocked it into my mind that yes, (some) women could be attracted to me, and all I had to do was find the right one, which I eventually did, albeit a few stops later on the dating train.

This doesn’t mean you should swagger around like a casanova and ask every girl in the bar if they want to go home, but (from what else you’ve described in this thread) it sounds like Emily and Brick are right that a therapist might do you some good in getting past that sort of hangup.


Didn’t read all the posts, Europe trip where? Where is she from?


Probably ought to go back and read some of them before asking these questions…this ship has long since sailed.


Can’t read them all right now but I replied as soon as I’ve read american guy + Europe trip + getting laid + thinking about moving and went full NOPENOPENOPE, lol.
Hope he cleared his head and decided to avoid that shitty decision for his own good and safety.


All irrelevant now. Don’t worry about it.

[quote=ActivitiesGuy]Confidence is a funny thing. The validation of “having a girlfriend” had gotten me past that hangup and knocked it into my mind that yes, (some) women could be attracted to me, and all I had to do was find the right one, which I eventually did, albeit a few stops later on the dating train.

This doesn’t mean you should swagger around like a casanova and ask every girl in the bar if they want to go home, but (from what else you’ve described in this thread) it sounds like Emily and Brick are right that a therapist might do you some good in getting past that sort of hangup.[/quote]
It did raise my confidence yes, because at the very least my experience taught me I was attractive and interesting to at least ONE woman in the world. Since her decision to forget about a relationship though it left me speculating as to a number of things that knocked me down a little bit, but on the whole at least it was like 3 steps forward and 1 back. I appreciate all the therapy suggestions but I’ll get just off the table right now that I have done it before, and as good and gracious people as they are it didn’t do much good for me. I tend to be one of those people who learns best through direct experience, either good or bad - I can’t just be told that doing a math problem the wrong way is the wrong way, I have to know WHY and more importantly see it for myself. To a lot of people this is also known as “learning the hard way”, but as long as you avoid dangerous or long-term detrimental situations I don’t see it as a total loss.

I’ve considered that they thought I was attractive, but it was more like a fleeting moment that I brushed off my shoulder because it didn’t really seem possible. Like I said having a girl think so was great and all but I’d need a lot more experience to conclude that it wasn’t as big a concern.

Thanks for your reply. These are good points. I too can be those things in the right moments and for me they tend to be one-on-one or a small group of friends. In large groups of people I feel more preservation instincts kicking in and I find those environments more difficult to engage in deep conversation. As I’ve gotten older I’ve become not just visual in what attracts me as well, if I sense a very flakey and superficial girl with a bad attitude that in itself can be unattractive. The difference is I think that while looks may not be everything for the opposite gender to my own, the interaction between looks an personality is kind of like collateral. The guy may be average looking but have a killer personality, so there’s always that, and on the other hand he may not be the brightest bulb in the box but look like a swimsuit model. Also while I don’t think shooting to the skies is necessary for a lot of women, I think a certain bar has to be met, for the mere reason that trust is necessary and if you don’t look a man who could be strong or trustworthy it may indicate from the initial meeting that you won’t be.