T Nation

Just How Anti-Catabolic are Steroids?

Ok, for the sake of example, my second cycle in a nutshell I’m thinking about doing would possibly be Test, Tren, Mast, Clen, and T3 and it will be a cutting cycle.

With a caloric defecit suited with a proper diet, supplementation and training, I’m guessing this could be a pretty damn effective cutting regime. For those who have cut before while on cycle, how well did you retain muscle and how fast was your rate of weight loss?

Very good question!

They ‘Valmorphanised’ BestDaddyEver.

Its all in the food is the answer to your question and how high you choose to go using T3, Clen etc.

8 weeks of prop, 6 weeks of mast with the addition of anavar would be my chosen route now.
Obv, GH is a different financial story but i think we can safely say is very effective for fatloss.
Id also add metformin into there and if you feel the need to run t3, then you will have to give me some more info, how much you need to lose, current weight & bf%, maintainance calories etc

To answer the question you asked anyway, i have cut several times with the use of steroids, Test as the base, i usually go with prop, often masteron and an oral such as tbol, winstrol or var.

I dont run clen ever as i think its filthy horrible cat piss.
T3 will be dosed to my calorie intake per day which requires a lot of careful planning and one hell of alot of discipline - worth it in the end though.

The best i ever managed with a cut was to lose 19lbs of fat and lose only 2lbs of muscle - thats what the math in my log says anyway but that is what stands out in memory as my best cut.

[quote]testanabol wrote:
They ‘Valmorphanised’ BestDaddyEver.

Its all in the food is the answer to your question and how high you choose to go using T3, Clen etc.

8 weeks of prop, 6 weeks of mast with the addition of anavar would be my chosen route now.
Obv, GH is a different financial story but i think we can safely say is very effective for fatloss.
Id also add metformin into there and if you feel the need to run t3, then you will have to give me some more info, how much you need to lose, current weight & bf%, maintainance calories etc[/quote]

I plan on going on a bulk after my comp in August. I just need to lose no more than 10% BF. I am 5% right now at 224, but I will probably jump up to 12% or so after a long 7 - 8 month bulk, maybe a little more like 15% tops. My weight I’m guesstimating after the cycle and a few extra months of bulking could be around 270ish. Not sure really, but I have never done gear before so I will most likely respond well to it. My maintenance calories is roughly 4,000 calories. Let’s say I need to lose 20 lbs of fat.

I was thinking of maybe going 100mcg with both Clen and T3. How would that sound? My cycle, I’m not sure about. Really, I might be able to live without tren because it’s so expensive. I haven’t read too much about anavar because I know it’s not that great for bulking and that’s what I’m concerned with right now.

BDE I really wanna help you but I’m still looking up the word “cutting” in my how to be a powerlifter handbook. I cannot find the term anywhere :wink:

[quote]saps wrote:
BDE I really wanna help you but I’m still looking up the word “cutting” in my how to be a powerlifter handbook. I cannot find the term anywhere ;)[/quote]

You gotta release the pressure on that fat tank every once and a while and clean it out, even as a powerlifter. :slight_smile:

I’m still trying to look up the term “fail” in my how to be a BDE handbook. I can’t seem to find that term anywhere. :wink:

okay, so i mis understood things there as you are planning your second cycle not your first.

first cycle should be kept simple.

500mg week of test cyp or enan
dbol for the first 4 weeks
proviron @ 50mg a day throughout or winstrol for the last 4 weeks

Stasis taper and done, easy peasy.

Seeing as your already a massive fella naturally that should blow you up real good.

It will be difficult to say much now about your second cycle as we can only estimate what weight / bf% you will have then.

As i said before, i would keep away from dirty clenbuterol jmo mind (can you tell i hate the stuff) and stick with a test prop, mast, t3 cycle. The T3 dosage will have to be based imo on your status at the time and how well we can tweak your diet.
I personally love T3 for bulking but thats another story haha

[quote]saps wrote:
BDE I really wanna help you but I’m still looking up the word “cutting” in my how to be a powerlifter handbook. I cannot find the term anywhere ;)[/quote]

Hmmm…
Saps, you might want to have a look around this very site for two powerlifting Daves - Dave Tate and Dave Gulledge.

Leaned down powerlifters have some of the best physiques out there!

[quote]testanabol wrote:
okay, so i mis understood things there as you are planning your second cycle not your first.

first cycle should be kept simple.

500mg week of test cyp or enan
dbol for the first 4 weeks
proviron @ 50mg a day throughout or winstrol for the last 4 weeks

Stasis taper and done, easy peasy.

Seeing as your already a massive fella naturally that should blow you up real good.

It will be difficult to say much now about your second cycle as we can only estimate what weight / bf% you will have then.

As i said before, i would keep away from dirty clenbuterol jmo mind (can you tell i hate the stuff) and stick with a test prop, mast, t3 cycle. The T3 dosage will have to be based imo on your status at the time and how well we can tweak your diet.
I personally love T3 for bulking but thats another story haha[/quote]

I’ve read enough to do a cycle with tren included for a first cycle, so my first cycle is going to be a test(E3D)/tren(ED) cycle with a dbol kickstart, with adex (eod) as well as hcg (e3d) ran throughout until the stasis, at which the hcg will be stopped and the adex tapered off.

Tren starts at 1/2 the dose of test split into daily injections. Each week, the amount of tren injected daily will increase by 5mg until I either hit a threshold where the sides take over the benefits or the Tren hits 3/4 the amount of test in dosage. I do not want to pass that regardless of whether I can handle more or not. Tren stops 2 weeks before the stasis begins to help let up on the suppression. Then the taper will include nolvadex. That’s my cycle, very simplified of course.

Haha why do you hate clen so much? And I’ve actually read that you can take about 25mcg of T3 per day while bulking if you’re taking Tren because it affects the thyroid hormone. What’s your reason for running it?

As for my weight, I’m guessing it will be around 270. It’s hard to say what my bodyfat will be after the cycle because I’m sure the fat won’t be as much as it will be on a normal bulk, especially with tren. I know my bodyfat isn’t going to want to keep around 2 - 3% after my comp in August, nor do I want that haha. I’m starting the cycle 3 weeks after my comp. The 3 weeks is for recovery of the body from such harsh dieting.

As for planning my 2nd cycle that you are referring to, I’m kinda doing that, but the ideas are in my head right now. I’m not sure what compounds (other than test) I’m going to use and in what doses, etc. Hell, if I’m fairly lean at the end and would only need to diet down for a couple months or less, I might just go on another bulk cycle! That’s why I’m not putting anything down on paper just yet. I’m just learning as much as I can so that when the time comes, I will know what to do no matter which road I decide to take.

Also, I have 25g of Test E right now. Would it really make that much of a difference to use prop?

[quote]testanabol wrote:
To answer the question you asked anyway, i have cut several times with the use of steroids, Test as the base, i usually go with prop, often masteron and an oral such as tbol, winstrol or var.

I dont run clen ever as i think its filthy horrible cat piss.
T3 will be dosed to my calorie intake per day which requires a lot of careful planning and one hell of alot of discipline - worth it in the end though.

The best i ever managed with a cut was to lose 19lbs of fat and lose only 2lbs of muscle - thats what the math in my log says anyway but that is what stands out in memory as my best cut.
[/quote]

Is there a formula you use to calculate T3 dosage compared to calorie intake?

I am seriously looking into T3 for my next cycle and I am interested in how you calculate dosage in relation to diet.

Cheers

[quote]BestDaddyEver wrote:
testanabol wrote:
okay, so i mis understood things there as you are planning your second cycle not your first.

first cycle should be kept simple.

500mg week of test cyp or enan
dbol for the first 4 weeks
proviron @ 50mg a day throughout or winstrol for the last 4 weeks

Stasis taper and done, easy peasy.

Seeing as your already a massive fella naturally that should blow you up real good.

It will be difficult to say much now about your second cycle as we can only estimate what weight / bf% you will have then.

As i said before, i would keep away from dirty clenbuterol jmo mind (can you tell i hate the stuff) and stick with a test prop, mast, t3 cycle. The T3 dosage will have to be based imo on your status at the time and how well we can tweak your diet.
I personally love T3 for bulking but thats another story haha

I’ve read enough to do a cycle with tren included for a first cycle, so my first cycle is going to be a test(E3D)/tren(ED) cycle with a dbol kickstart, with adex (eod) as well as hcg (e3d) ran throughout until the stasis, at which the hcg will be stopped and the adex tapered off.

Tren starts at 1/2 the dose of test split into daily injections. Each week, the amount of tren injected daily will increase by 5mg until I either hit a threshold where the sides take over the benefits or the Tren hits 3/4 the amount of test in dosage. I do not want to pass that regardless of whether I can handle more or not. Tren stops 2 weeks before the stasis begins to help let up on the suppression. Then the taper will include nolvadex. That’s my cycle, very simplified of course.

Haha why do you hate clen so much? And I’ve actually read that you can take about 25mcg of T3 per day while bulking if you’re taking Tren because it affects the thyroid hormone. What’s your reason for running it?

As for my weight, I’m guessing it will be around 270. It’s hard to say what my bodyfat will be after the cycle because I’m sure the fat won’t be as much as it will be on a normal bulk, especially with tren. I know my bodyfat isn’t going to want to keep around 2 - 3% after my comp in August, nor do I want that haha. I’m starting the cycle 3 weeks after my comp. The 3 weeks is for recovery of the body from such harsh dieting.

As for planning my 2nd cycle that you are referring to, I’m kinda doing that, but the ideas are in my head right now. I’m not sure what compounds (other than test) I’m going to use and in what doses, etc. Hell, if I’m fairly lean at the end and would only need to diet down for a couple months or less, I might just go on another bulk cycle! That’s why I’m not putting anything down on paper just yet. I’m just learning as much as I can so that when the time comes, I will know what to do no matter which road I decide to take.

Also, I have 25g of Test E right now. Would it really make that much of a difference to use prop?[/quote]

Well that sounds like a sensible plan reguarding the tren/test/sides ratio.
Clen makes me feel like shit and i found it as effective for fat loss as a white bread buttered cheese sandwich :wink:
T3 is awsome for bulking with just test ime.
To simplify, it rapidly increases the rate of which calories can be processed. Steroids rapidly increase the rate of which calories (protein/carbs) can be synth’d to muscle & muscle glyco.
This allows me to eat more and gain more, its just supercharging your steroids in a nutshell.

Seeing as how you havent inj before this being your 1st cycle, prop could be a daunting task, as eod imo is not ideal, everyday is alot better.
Enanthate will bloat you slightly more, but for a convience standpoint and in terms of a bulking cycle enanthate wins every time.

[quote]Electric_E wrote:
testanabol wrote:
To answer the question you asked anyway, i have cut several times with the use of steroids, Test as the base, i usually go with prop, often masteron and an oral such as tbol, winstrol or var.

I dont run clen ever as i think its filthy horrible cat piss.
T3 will be dosed to my calorie intake per day which requires a lot of careful planning and one hell of alot of discipline - worth it in the end though.

The best i ever managed with a cut was to lose 19lbs of fat and lose only 2lbs of muscle - thats what the math in my log says anyway but that is what stands out in memory as my best cut.

Is there a formula you use to calculate T3 dosage compared to calorie intake?

I am seriously looking into T3 for my next cycle and I am interested in how you calculate dosage in relation to diet.

Cheers

[/quote]

I can give you my method, but bare in mind, existing metabolic rates, AAS enhanced ones all vary.

For me 25mcg T3 = 500calories demand
200mg of Test Enan = 170 calories demand

So to bulk, if i were using 1g per week of gear and 50mcg of t3 a day.

Base rate, no drugs = 5000kcal a day
1g of test = 170 x 5 = 850kcal a day
50mcg of t3 = 500 x 2 = 1000kcal a day

So for me, total calories required that day to gain weight would be 6850 calories.

To cut, using 1g per week test e and 50mcg a day of t3

Base Rate, no drugs = 5000kcal a day
1g of test = - 850kcal a day
50 mcg t3 = - 1000kcal a day

So, if i eat my usual 5000kcal a day, the drug combo i am using leaves me with only 3150 calories a day.

These figures are rounded up and down for purposes of simplicity, but hopefully my point is being conveyed.
Calories can then be adjusted against drug doses and visa versa to suit the individual - i know that 3150 calories cannot possibly sustain my muscle mass.

Situations like this, are where those of us who keep a log can smile proudly as our experimenting is done and recorded :wink: This will be very diffcult to do unless you have kept a detailed log of how your body has reacted to the different ways you have fed and treated it.

Again, i must disclaim, this works FOR ME, it may not for anybody else.

Hope that helps.

Testanabol, i highly doubt your BMR is 5000kcal.

that would make you around 300-350lbm (LBM)…!

Brook

[quote] Brook wrote:
Testanabol, i highly doubt your BMR is 5000kcal.

that would make you around 300-350lbm (LBM)…!

Brook[/quote]

He’s probably closer to 4k like me.

And as for the T3, Testanabol, are you saying that instead of, for example, my body being able to use 400g of protein per day that my body could use 450g of protein per day? I’m a calorie whore when it comes to bulking, I’ll admit it, but it’s how I do things. If I have to eat more food, then great. I have no limits on that.

As for T3 itself, does it have any other advantages relating to bulking? And do you have any research proving that taking T3 while bulking will improve the rate at which the body can uptake nutrients to actually build muscle? From what I’ve read, T3 has to do with affecting your ATP levels, and all of the extra calories you would need would have to go to this to feed this area of increased need.

4000kcal would put someone at around 260-280lbs with 0% BF.

Great question BDE… It is proven that that taking T3 will improve the rate at which the body uses nutrients. The question is while bulking, will it speed up the
rate the body builds muscle. Are the advantages that much greater using T3 vs. not using T3 while consuming large amounts of calories in the ultimate goal of
building muscle? Would T3 actually allow the body to be more anabolic, speeding up the process up hypertrophy or would it just simply speed up metabolism helping the body use the calories before they are turned into fat.

Where is the Bush man when you need him?

I have read that thyroid cells are the only cells in the body which can absorb iodine. These cells combine iodine and the amino acid tyrosine to make T3 and T4. The normal thyroid gland produces about 80% T4 and about 20% T3, however, T3 possesses about four times the hormone “strength” as T4.
Every cell in the body depends upon thyroid hormones for regulation of their metabolism. Would it not be a good idea to also supplement
the amino acid tyrosine (is not in BCAA’s), and iodine to further enhance the production of T3 and T4 on the bulk being discussed? Also in general whilst supplementing T3, it would be beneficial to eat foods rich in iodine, like seafood, and purchase a bottle of tyrosine tabs.

Cheers Tbol thats great info, this is turning into a really good T3 info thread

[quote]mingledorff7 wrote:
Great question BDE… It is proven that that taking T3 will improve the rate at which the body uses nutrients. The question is while bulking, will it speed up the
rate the body builds muscle. Are the advantages that much greater using T3 vs. not using T3 while consuming large amounts of calories in the ultimate goal of
building muscle? Would T3 actually allow the body to be more anabolic, speeding up the process up hypertrophy or would it just simply speed up metabolism helping the body use the calories before they are turned into fat.

Where is the Bush man when you need him?

I have read that thyroid cells are the only cells in the body which can absorb iodine. These cells combine iodine and the amino acid tyrosine to make T3 and T4. The normal thyroid gland produces about 80% T4 and about 20% T3, however, T3 possesses about four times the hormone “strength” as T4.
Every cell in the body depends upon thyroid hormones for regulation of their metabolism. Would it not be a good idea to also supplement
the amino acid tyrosine (is not in BCAA’s), and iodine to further enhance the production of T3 and T4 on the bulk being discussed? Also in general whilst supplementing T3, it would be beneficial to eat foods rich in iodine, like seafood, and purchase a bottle of tyrosine tabs.
[/quote]

Hmmm… maybe this somewhat talks about what Tbol was saying? The last paragraph in particular helps. I’m still skeptical about taking T3 while doing a bulking cycle. The body needs more calories when its on T3, right? But where do the calories all go to? Maintaining your body’s functioning, but at a higher cost than usual. The only thing this sounds like it does to me is make you have to eat more to gain.

Let’s say that if I’m on gear + T3 I did eat enough to obtain that rapid weight gain (not slow gains) that happens during a normal cycle, would the extra protein I gain from eating more be turned into muscle? I plan on getting in at least 600 grams of protein a day (6,000 calorie diet) with my current given cycle. So if I have to eat even more food, let’s say now 7,000 calories, will even more protein be used towards muscle building or will that protein be used to feed the mitochondria?

"Among other secondary symptoms are obesity, metabolic disorders, and fatigue. Bodybuilders take advantage of these characteristics and stimulate their metabolism by taking Neo-Tiroimade, which causes a faster conversion of carbohydrates, proteins, and fats. Body builders, of course, are especially interested in an increased lipolysis, which means increased fat burning.

Competing body builders, in particular, use Neo-Tiroimade during the weeks before a championship since it helps to maintain an extremely low fat content, without necessitating a hunger diet. Athletes who use low dosages of Neo-Tiroimade report that by the simultaneous intake of steroids, the steroids become more effective, most likely as the result of the faster conversion of protein."

[quote] Brook wrote:
4000kcal would put someone at around 260-280lbs with 0% BF.[/quote]

4k calories I can easily need in a day to maintain weight between 2 hours of weightlifting and walking more than 10 miles a day. So 5k calories can be used to gain weight with such a lifestyle. So for bulking purposes, a natural taking in 5k calories would be appropriate for guys like me and Tbol. Plus everyone’s metabolism and lifestyle is different, regardless of size.

Well thats not your BMR then mate.

As for the real point, you are right (AFAIK) about needing more calories to gain. You do need to eat much more… but off T3, if you ate double the calories you do normally, you would gain fat quickly - ON T3, the extra calories are shuttled towards physical processes - ie. Not wasted in heat production, but they are actually ‘metabolised’… so there is a higher demand for energy in ALL of the bodys systems - importantly for us, that included muscle building too…

I hope that someone can confirm or deny this…?

Brook