T Nation

Just Found Out My Cruising Levels Are Way Too High


#1

So a few weeks ago, posted about my use of Tren and that led to a discussion with some board members about my cruising levels of a gram a week being way too high. I took their comments to heart and had some bloodwork done. I was skeptical at first that it was “too high” but they were right.

Stats: 51 years old, 180 lbs, 5’7" about 15% BF

I kept it limited to total test, free test, prolactin and estrodiol. As you will see, they were right. I am going to start tapering right away and retest.

  1. Total Testosterone , LC/MS = 5383 ng/dL
  2. Free Testosterone (Direct) = >50 pg/mL
  3. Prolactin = 21.8 ng/mL Range is 4 - 15.2
  4. Estrodiol = 143.6 pg/mL Range is 7.6 - 42.6

Note: Roche ECLIA methodology

Information released to FDA by different reagent manufactures has identified cross reactivity between Fulvestrant, a drug used in the treatment of metastatic breast cancer, and immunoassays; leading to falsely elevated estradiol results. Any patient known to be on a Fulvestrant regimen can be tested for Estradiol using LabCorp assay "Estradiol, Sensitive (LC/MS) test number 140244’ which does not exhibit Fulvestrant interference.

Basically my Nolvadex is causing a false estrodioll reading and i need to get retested.

Flame Away!


#2

I haven’t seen your original post but I can imagine you got roasted for thinking 1g test is a suitable “cruise” amount…

I have never cruised until now, I am currently cruising on 250mg test e per week which even that may be a little high for my level…

Remember, a cruise is just to give you enough of an aas advantage to maintain and not drop off.

Just to put it into perspective, after abit of reading, young males naturally produce between 7-9 mg per day!


#3

I read your original post, glad you took their advise and got tested. Time to get things in check.


#4

In my situation, my natural Test levels are around 200, so it makes sense that I might need more than 250 to put me in the optimal range, but I have always been a “more is better” kind of guy.


#5

Hematocrit? You may want to check that if you’ve been running that high, just saying.


#6

I donate regularly and Red Cross checks it every time


#7

hey i need help with my post. you seem like a vet. would you mind helping me out? i need feedback.


#8

hey there bro, Im sorry but you mind helping a brother out. its about erection issues. while taking a cycle

and this my post. not sure if im doing anything wrong by posting on your posts. but I am desperate. seems like your a vet and well knowledgeable.

sorry for any inconvenience

Hi all i need your help from those veterans out there.
Started a cycle with much consistent training for many years.
Im 23 and just started my first aas cycle

age 23
height 1.65cm or 5 ft 5 inch
weight: 73 kg or 160.6 pounds

cycle as follows

10 Week Cycle
Test E - 250MG Every 3 Days
Arimidex - 0.25mg Every Other Day
then finish off with pct 2 weeks after last pin

First pin was on last monday on the 14/03/2016
2nd pin was on last thursday 17/03/2016
3rd pin was on the last sunday 20/03/2016

arimidex throughout at 0.25mg every other day. last was on a sunday 20/03/2015
sunday had an extremely high fever
and it subsided on monday.
monday met my girlfriend and we had sex. could get an erection but it wasnt as strong as before and i could always go 3-4 times. and my fever came back in the night and lasted till today, on the arimidex my testicles increased in size, felt fuller. i was following FuriousGeorge newbie cycle planning as it seemed like a decent simple cycle. the link to his cycle planning

Steroid Newbie Cycle Planning
Pharma
Welcome Newbie, First off please don’t email me asking for juice connections, I don’t have any to give out. I am happy to help people with cycle plans but won’t hook you up with a connection. I am not a medical professional, just a dude that knows a lot about juice so take my advice as just that. So on to the guide… you wanna learn about juice eh. Well the purpose of this thread is twofold: There are way too many “this is my first cycle, does this look ok” threads junking up the ster…
so now noting that i must have crashed my E2 on arimidex 0.25mg every other day? how do i reverse this issue? also my BPM was 100-113 through my resting rate. im not sure if this is due to the arimidex or my fever. as i normally used to have my resting bpm between 50-70. No history of any illness. i know some of you might be pissed off and give sarcastic answers but im really looking for some help. hopefully all the veterans would guide me along. only thing to note is was obese at 150kg. dropped my weight and started exercising, dieting and had my ideal physique but i felt small. im hoping for someone to help me. thank you.


#9

This is totally wrong. Your natural levels have nothing to do with what your levels will be when on a TRT dose. When on TRT natural production stops, hence the pre TRT reading is irrelevant

100-150mg is a standard TRT dose putting most people in the higher end of normal.
250mg seems to be a standard cruise for many AAS users. High level bodybuilders might use more.
250mg seems to be considered the highest ‘safe’ cruise dose

Your Estrogen is very high and needs to be lowered using an AI.

I imagine despite giving blood you HCT is still going to be dangerously high. Continue giving blood as often as you can but also get it checked. TRT users on 150mg have issues with elevated HCT so this is almost certainly an issue.

How long have you been on 1g of Test?

I recently read a story about an AAS user on reddit who was running quite heavy blasts and cruising on 250mg iirc - He was not monitoring his HCT and ended up having a stroke as a result. It didn’t kill him but has impaired his ability to speak and type etc.I think with time he expects to make a full recovery.

Consider reducing your dose to 100-150mg for at least 3 months to try and let everything go back to normal. Get more blood tests and re-assess.

Why are you taking nolvadex?

You should spend a lot of time reading in the TRT forum and on good TRT practice in general. What you have been doing is dangerous and you seem to be doing it because you just don’t have enough knowledge on how to safely administer your own TRT.


#10

Obviously you did not see the note that taking Nolva causes false reading in E2. There is an Estradiol sensitive test that corrects that. I plan on getting that. I can pretty much guarantee you that my E2 levels are low. I’ve high E before and I know its symptoms.

It seems like you are the one who needs to read a little more. Bill Roberts recommends 20 mg Nolva/ED when running test.

Again, Red Cross would not take my blood if it were “dangerously high” as you say.


#11

Sorry i wasn’t aware that the red cross checked that HCT levels were in normal range before accepting blood donations. If that is the case and your HCT is a healthly level then that’s one less thing to worry about.

I did see your comment regarding the nolva effecting the test, however you have not mentioned use of an AI and are on 1g of Test so i have assumed that it’s high anyway. As you can ‘pretty much guarantee it’s low’ i guess we have nothing to worry about here…

Maybe Bill Roberts has recommended using nolva along with testosterone but i very much doubt that it was in the context of cruising long term a 1g of testosterone p/w. I do not know him personally but i very much doubt he is going to recommend something that fucking stupid.


#12

Nolva is a SERM

From Bill Roberts Nolvadex Profile

By occupying the binding site of estrogen receptors of a cell without activating them, Nolvadex prevents these receptors from being activated by estradiol. The cell then “thinks” that estradiol levels are very low, and responds accordingly.

In the case of the hypothalamus, it then produces more LHRH in response to apparently very low estrogen. This stimulates the pituitary to produce LH, which in turn stimulates the testes, restoring testosterone production.

Prior to the advent of affordable anti-aromatases, Nolvadex was also popular as an anti-gynecomastia agent. Today, it’s best to use an anti-aromatase as a preventative, but if gyno symptoms flare up during a cycle, immediate treatment with Nolvadex can be helpful. Dosing for this use is as with PCT

You sound like mainsteram medicine when quoting TRT treatment. I’ve been on 1 gram/week for over a year. All while being monitored by a Dr for hypothyroidism. No high BP, no high hemacrit, no racing heart, no acne, no hair loss…


#13

I am well aware of what Nolva is. The caption you have posted does not explain why you would be using it whilst on testosterone, unless of course is was to treat gyno caused by elevated Estrogen…

Anyway i have given you what i consider to be solid advice in my first post which you have now dismissed and i have nothing else to add so I’m out.


#14

I take Nolva for the very fact that I was taking a gram a week. It would be foolish to think that at that level there would be no increased estrogen levels.

Actually your advice was condescending and only based on what you’d read, apparently not on what you practiced. All your examples acted like I was going to drop dead in minute, when in fact I am quite healthy but do recognize the need to lower my Test levels to a more sustainable level.


#15

I don’t understand why you’re running nolva instead of an AI. The things you’re talking about that Bill Roberts has said in the past do not necessarily reflect his opinion now. And he’s also not the only intelligent voice in the community. It makes a whole lot more sense, in my mind, to protect against aromatization in the first place than it does to deal with estrogen post-conversion.

Obviously you need to check your E2. I know you said you’re familiar with the feelings of high estrogen and can assume that yours is low, but I question this. I get bloodwork regularly, and I can say definitively, from my own experience, that high and low estrogen can feel essentially the same. It’s a very difficult thing to diagnose just from feeling.

Your assertion that you are quite healthy is rather dubious to me as well. You’re basing that on just a few metrics. You might be right, you might not be. The science just isn’t available to definitely say either way.

Finally, as others have mentioned, your natural test levels have absolutely nothing to do with how you should dose your testosterone. That’s patently absurd, and it’s something you should know already if you’ve read so much. Aside from that, your logic that 250 would put you in optimal ranges is equally absurd. I don’t think you understand how the dosing of injectable testosterone correlates to blood levels of testosterone over a given period of time. I feel you’re confusing half life, which is based on ester breakdown, with active life of the tesosterone hormone AFTER the ester has been cleaved. That’s an important distinction, and it explains why a dose of 250mg/week will almost certainly still put you above normal ranges. Perhaps you consider ‘well above the highest natural human production’ to be optimal. I hope that’s not the case.


#16

I respect you and you’re the reason i chose to get the blood work. I already admitted you were right and i am taking steps to taper my doses down to a sustainable level. I have been on Arimidex, still got tender nipples and back acne, I have been on low dose TRT levels before with limited results. What works for me now is 20 mg Nolva ED.

Yes, i got greedy and kept cranking up my doses. I admit it. I feel great! and I have no water retention, no bloating, no acne, no hair loss, no high blood pressure, no prostate issues, no erection issues, and no libido issues. Yes my levels are too high but even after tapering down, i plan on staying at high optimal.

There are studies that also support the concept that baseline serum levels affect dosing strategies. As you know, there are always contradicting opinions out there. Especially when it comes to BB and AAS.

I’m doing what works for me that was learned thru trial and error. You guys are judging me without having been where I’ve been: Metabolic syndrome, depression, overweight, no libido, no desire for life. You walk that road for 10 years and see what you do when you finally have the opportunity to feel young again.

I’m out.


#17

I’m sure you feel great on a gram of test, I feel much better on that as well, hahaha. I didn’t remember everything that was said in your first thread, so apologies on that. Didn’t know if you’d started taking an AI or not.

If bloodwork is showing that nolva is keeping your E2 around 22 (basically 20-25), then it sounds like it should be fine.

I’d have to see the studies you’re referring to. As far as I’m aware, if you’re blasting and cruising, as you have been, your ‘baseline’ should be irrelevant. I could be missing something here though.

I don’t think I’m judging you in a way that runs counter to what you’ve asked for. You started a thread asking for advice, and that’s largely what you’ve gotten. It’s a free forum, and the contributors are pretty much just a bunch of other dudes trying to find their own way as well.

As far as ‘feeling young again’… I don’t know about you, but being on a gram of test does NOT make me feel young again. It feels fucking great mostly, but it’s not remotely how I felt when I was young. Not at all. If I wanted to feel young again, I’d probably stop working out so hard, get my joints healed up, and lose about 20 lbs (or more) of muscle. That’d get me closer to my youth then running superhuman levels of testosterone.

When I was in my early 20’s I was a 130 lbs drug addict/alcoholic. I can assure you I know what depression feels like. I can relate to most of what you’re saying. But I try not to lie to myself about these things. I sincerely hope you keep moving in the right direction, it seems like you are.


#18

Jesus.

What the fuck is going on with this forum?

Morons cruising on a gram then getting pissy when their idiocy is questioned.

Ten million threads from children wanting to use gear.

Is the planet going mad?

Is anything real?

Do I really exist?

DESTROY THEM WITH LAZERS


#19

You’re hypocrisy is endless. Every “model” T-mag and every other men’s mag uses jacked up guys (who are definitely using over a gram a week plus a ton of other stuff) as a goal that the normal man can attain. Its BS. You guys quote all these experts but probably have never run a gram a week for a year because you believe it will kill you. Well, I’m here to say that it wont. As I stated before I am fine and feeling great at 51. I have already admitted that I need to reduce my levels, but I am going to stay at supraphysiologic levels because I dont want to be NORMAL.

I didn’t start going to the gym to be normal, I sure didn’t start powerlifting to be normal. I didn’t spend 4-5 days in the gym for years and years to be normal. I didnt crawl under weight that could turn me in a greasy spot on the floor to be normal. I didnt spend countless dollars on supplements and protein powder to be normal, I doubt that any of us want to be considered normal.

So criticize me all you want, but I take things to edge. I see what happens when I try stuff. I live by trial and error. If you’re afraid to go there, that’s your problem.

End of tirade


#20

They blast over a gram a week etc but i doubt they are cruising on it. I can’t say for sure what they would cruise on but numbers of 400mg p/w are what i commonly here.

Whilst saying things like ‘take it to the edge’ and accusing others of being scared to do it seems cool and all you just come across a fucking stupid and reckless.

What is the goal that you aiming to achieve that is ‘on the edge’?