Jthsiao -- Dietary Critique

hey guys…im about to finish my velocity diet and was wondering about your takes/timetables for going from 5 shakes a day to something like 3solid/2 shakes per day?

great job with your diet, im gonna use it as a kind of template…

[quote]thirddan wrote:
hey guys…im about to finish my velocity diet and was wondering about your takes/timetables for going from 5 shakes a day to something like 3solid/2 shakes per day?
[/quote]
Coming from the Velocity Diet to a more solid food diet is definitely a lot more time-consuming. You’ll have to figure out when your workout will be and plan around that.

In general, I like having my shakes be the meal before the workout and/or the meal before bed. That is due purely to not being able to workout or sleep on a fuller stomach. The good thing with the shakes is that you can combine them with anything to make your P+C or P+F meal.

[quote]thirddan wrote:
great job with your diet, im gonna use it as a kind of template…[/quote]

Tampa-Terry has given a lot of great advice in this thread. Hopefully others can also utilize all the wonderful information she has given. :slight_smile:

hey jthsiao,

i was more referring to over how many days did you transition from shakes to solids?

on day 1 you are at 5 shakes (final day of velocity)
day 2 = 4shakes/1solid
day 5 = 3/2
day 10 = 2/3 etc…

im trying to work out how long my transition should be so i can find some kind of safe way to do it…

[quote]thirddan wrote:
i was more referring to over how many days did you transition from shakes to solids?

on day 1 you are at 5 shakes (final day of velocity)
day 2 = 4shakes/1solid
day 5 = 3/2
day 10 = 2/3 etc…

im trying to work out how long my transition should be so i can find some kind of safe way to do it…
[/quote]
Oops! Sorry for the mis-read!

Sunday was my last day on the Velocity Diet and I had two shakes on Monday and Tuesday (Mid-Morning Meal and Pre-Bed Meal). I used the two shakes at those aforementioned reasons. For today and on, I’ll be drinking one shake a day for my Mid-Morning Meal.

As for how long you “should” take, Chris recommended one to two weeks on half solid, half shakes. I went straight into the one-shake-a-day format because I’m eating a lot fibrous carbs as my source of carbs. So far, I haven’t had any digestion problems, so I guess you can take that as a data point regarding what is “safe”.

The hardest part that I’ve found is planning a diet, which is why this thread exists. I’ve done a bulk diet in the past where I just ate “clean”, without really understand the nuances of nutritional timing. I got away with that (sort of) because I wanted to gain weight, so I just ate a caloric surplus and gained weight.

But now on a cutting diet, nutritional timing is even that much more important with the combo goal of maintaining muscle while losing fat.

I would suggest you focus more on the diet for your next goal, whether maintaining your current weight to keep of the fat you lost, or to continue cutting. That will be a lot more important than the exact progression of number of shakes to drink each successive day.

I think as long as your choice of food is healthy as outlined by Tampa-Terry in her posts, your body will be fine and wouldn’t feel any ill effects of coming off of the Velocity Diet. :slight_smile:

[quote]jthsiao wrote:

Tampa-Terry has given a lot of great advice in this thread. Hopefully others can also utilize all the wonderful information she has given. :-)[/quote]

You bet!

[quote]thirddan wrote:
hey jthsiao,

i was more referring to over how many days did you transition from shakes to solids?

on day 1 you are at 5 shakes (final day of velocity)
day 2 = 4shakes/1solid
day 5 = 3/2
day 10 = 2/3 etc…

im trying to work out how long my transition should be so i can find some kind of safe way to do it…
[/quote]

I’ve been wondering about what was going to the toilet like?

I find this whole V-diet crazy, unnatural and infinitely …(you can fill in:)

[quote]JuicyLucy wrote:
I’ve been wondering about what was going to the toilet like?
[/quote]

I assume you mean while being on the Velocity Diet? It was actually a lot better than before the diet actually. Being conscious of fiber intake and forcing myself to include flax as part of my diet actually made me even more “regular” than before. I got about 19g of fiber a day during the diet, which was probably more than I was getting before.

Now that I’m off the diet, I’m a lot more conscious about my fiber intake and make sure to include a lot of veggies in my diet. I average around 30g of fiber a day nowadays. :slight_smile:

[quote]JuicyLucy wrote:
I find this whole V-diet crazy, unnatural and infinitely …(you can fill in:)
[/quote]

The Velocity Diet is probably a little bit crazy. It is definitely unnatural. However, it is also… SIMPLE!

I think it was a good jump start to a cutting phase. It made me conscious of the aforementioned fiber, and also just being disciplined in general about meal timing and planning.

I was on a bulking diet before, and there are definitely times when I went off my diet due to lack of self-discipline. Being on the Velocity Diet forced me to be disciplined with my eating. With the dual goal of losing fat and not losing muscle, I had to follow the diet to the letter if I was to move towards my goal.

Now that I’m off the Velocity Diet, I have taken that same type of focus on to solid food diets. :slight_smile:

I get your point. It’s all in the mind.

Do you have anything to explain this part? This is issue that I’m the most concerned about at this point. I want to keep lifting HEAVY since I’m still on a “cutting diet” of sort, even with the increased carbs. But the lack of “oomph” at the gym this week has me worried.

You’ve increased carbs, but haven’t optimized PWO nutrition. Meal 4 the last time you posted what you’re eating looks like this:

14:00 (Meal #4) P+C
85g of chicken breast strips
170g of broccoli
170g of zucchini
1 container of yogurt
117g of green grapes

None of the carbs you consumed in that meal are going to help you refill muscle glycogen. Go for the starchy carbs I’m famous for recommending … oatmeal, sweet potatoes, yams, whole wheat pasta, brown rice quinoa, amaranth. And consume them in the amounts I recommend: a 2:1 ratio of starchy carbs to protein. Give yourself 3 workouts with the starchy carbs I recommend and tell me how you’re feeling and how you’re performing in the gym.

Remember when you and I were talking about a person’s carb intake needing to match the type of workout they do? Yours is a good example. The fact that your workouts are suffering is a good indicator that you need more carbs. Why don’t you read up on GLUT4 transporters and non-insulin mediated glucose uptake. It might help you to persuade yourself into adding more carbs.

Basically, you were pretty well fat adapted (your body adapted to using fat for energy). But then you added in more carbs … but not ENOUGH carbs! (grin) It really is a dance, only it’s not me you’re dancing (i.e., negotiating) with. It’s the give and take of listening to your body … of taking things away and then being forced to give 'em back. (grin)

I had considered all the other starchy carb options, and I think for the amount that I’d eat, making a batch of brown rice or pasta might be too much effort in terms of cooking. What about a baked potato? What’s your opinion on those as a source of high-GI carb for PWO?

No on the baked potato. Yes on the sweet potato. Don’t make cooking a hassle. Cook enough brown rice for the week. Portion it out into little containers or baggies and then all you have to do is warm it up and eat it. Bulk cooking (once a week) is mandatory for anyone who cares about improving their body composition, but who doesn’t have a lot of discretionary time.

At this point, I think I’m aiming for 1 pound a week, after my body has stabilized from the added carbs, is that “goal” within reason?

You’re close to your goal weight & body comp, so yes, that’s perfect. Even a tad less than one pound is acceptable.

I don’t know what you do by trade, but I bet you’d be a great engineer! :slight_smile:

(grin) Maybe I should print up business cards.

[center][i]Tampa-Terry,
Body Comp Engineer[i][center]

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
You’ve increased carbs, but haven’t optimized PWO nutrition. Meal 4 the last time you posted what you’re eating looks like this:

14:00 (Meal #4) P+C
85g of chicken breast strips
170g of broccoli
170g of zucchini
1 container of yogurt
117g of green grapes

None of the carbs you consumed in that meal are going to help you refill muscle glycogen. Go for the starchy carbs I’m famous for recommending … oatmeal, sweet potatoes, yams, whole wheat pasta, brown rice quinoa, amaranth. And consume them in the amounts I recommend: a 2:1 ratio of starchy carbs to protein. Give yourself 3 workouts with the starchy carbs I recommend and tell me how you’re feeling and how you’re performing in the gym.
[/quote]
For my PWO meal today, I had:
84g of chicken breast
45g of sprouted wheat bread
75g of broccoli
181g of zucchini
89g of banana

Cal: 355, Carb: 48.3, Prot: 33.9, Fat: 3.6

After the nth time you’ve repeated it to me, I’m finally starting to bring up my carbs a little bit. But, I still need to work on getting more STARCHY carbs. Every time you post something, I learn something new. It is finally starting to sink in that you’d want 2:1 of STARCHY carb to protein.

I’ve been trying to up my carb, but it’s been from more fibrous carb sources instead of starchy carbs. I’ll have to up my STARCHY carb in my next workout!

P.S. See, I’m learning… albeit slowly. :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
Remember when you and I were talking about a person’s carb intake needing to match the type of workout they do? Yours is a good example. The fact that your workouts are suffering is a good indicator that you need more carbs. Why don’t you read up on GLUT4 transporters and non-insulin mediated glucose uptake. It might help you to persuade yourself into adding more carbs.

Basically, you were pretty well fat adapted (your body adapted to using fat for energy). But then you added in more carbs … but not ENOUGH carbs! (grin) It really is a dance, only it’s not me you’re dancing (i.e., negotiating) with. It’s the give and take of listening to your body … of taking things away and then being forced to give 'em back. (grin)
[/quote]
So, you’re saying that my body is confused right now, not knowing whether to use carbs or fat for energy, because it’s got some carbs, but not enough (and not starchy)?

I’m gonna have to go read up on GLUT4 transporters and non-insulin mediated glucose uptake. I’ve only heard about that mechanism today for the first time!

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
No on the baked potato. Yes on the sweet potato. Don’t make cooking a hassle. Cook enough brown rice for the week. Portion it out into little containers or baggies and then all you have to do is warm it up and eat it. Bulk cooking (once a week) is mandatory for anyone who cares about improving their body composition, but who doesn’t have a lot of discretionary time.
[/quote]
I didn’t know you can keep rice that long in the fridge. I’ll have to give that a try.

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
(grin) Maybe I should print up business cards.

[center]Tampa-Terry,
Body Comp Engineer
[/center][/quote]
Make that,

[center]Tampa-Terry,
Body Comp Engineer Extraordineer
[/center]
:slight_smile:

You are learning, jthsiao, and faster than you may realize!!!

It’s actually better to take some (if not all!) of the fibrous green veggies out of your PWO meal. Fiber is filling, and it delays gastric emptying. You can have some, but the more you have, the more it will slow down the rate at which glucose hits the blood stream. In general, that’s a good thing, but it’s not the effect you want PWO.

Honestly, except for the PWO meal, I’d be happier if people didn’t eat any starchy carbs (the exceptions hard-gainers and people who are bulking). Rather that they got all their carbs the way you’re getting 'em – fibrous green veggies, fruit and beans.

So, you’re saying that my body is confused right now, not knowing whether to use carbs or fat for energy, because it’s got some carbs, but not enough (and not starchy)?

Exactly!!! You’ll see your energy pick up and the intensity and “oomph” of your workouts increase very quickly once we get your PWO meal fixed.

There’s a reason I recommend STARCHY carbs over SWEET/SUGAR carbs for your PWO meal. Sugar is a molecule made of glucose + fructose. Only the glucose can refill muscle glycogen. Fructose only refills liver glycogen. It’s about efficiency and getting the result we want for the fewest number of calories. There are other reasons, too, but it’s a concept not fully appreciated by a lot of people.

You’re doing great, jthsiao!!! And thanks for the kind words! (grin)

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
You are learning, jthsiao, and faster than you may realize!!!
[/quote]
And I attribute that to you! :slight_smile:

To quote you from another thread:

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
Well, I’ll make you a deal, Kendra. If you give it 100% and communicate and ask questions, you can hold me accountable for your results if they’re not what you’d like 'em to be. On the flip side, if you do make steady progress towards your goals, you can take all the credit. (grin)

It’s the best deal in town!!! (grin)
[/quote]
I think you get all the credit for the progress we make. Yeah, we can read a lot, and different authors give us bits and pieces to the puzzle. But only with someone as patient as you helping us along the way will we really start to digest and internalize the plethora of information that we’ve been blasted with.

Thanks!

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
It’s actually better to take some (if not all!) of the fibrous green veggies out of your PWO meal. Fiber is filling, and it delays gastric emptying. You can have some, but the more you have, the more it will slow down the rate at which glucose hits the blood stream. In general, that’s a good thing, but it’s not the effect you want PWO.
[/quote]
I guess I must be learning something, because this is EXACTLY what I was planning for my next PWO. I was looking at my carb distribution among the meals, and I was thinking of really going for that 2:1 starchy carb to protein ratio that you’ve been trying to stuff into my head.

I think I’ll stay with the sprouted wheat bread as the source of my starchy carbs until I finish (or else my poor wife will go crazy with all the different food that I try to incorporate into my diet, but never finish), then it’s on to brown rice. :slight_smile:

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
Honestly, except for the PWO meal, I’d be happier if people didn’t eat any starchy carbs (the exceptions hard-gainers and people who are bulking). Rather that they got all their carbs the way you’re getting 'em – fibrous green veggies, fruit and beans.
[/quote]
Yes, that’s what I’m planning for my off days. No starchy carbs. All my carbs will be from what I’ve been eating this week. I may up the avocado or maybe broccoli to up my fiber some more, but otherwise, no starchy carbs during the off days. Just like you said, no Carb Cycling, but “Carb Manipulation”. Do I see that coming up in an article soon? :wink:

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
Exactly!!! You’ll see your energy pick up and the intensity and “oomph” of your workouts increase very quickly once we get your PWO meal fixed.

There’s a reason I recommend STARCHY carbs over SWEET/SUGAR carbs for your PWO meal. Sugar is a molecule made of glucose + fructose. Only the glucose can refill muscle glycogen. Fructose only refills liver glycogen. It’s about efficiency and getting the result we want for the fewest number of calories. There are other reasons, too, but it’s a concept not fully appreciated by a lot of people.
[/quote]
Thanks for the explanation about glucose and muscle glycogen!

This leads me to another question though. What is the purpose of filling liver glycogen with fructose? You had the following quote earlier in this thread:

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
The fructose in fruit will refill liver glycogen and keep blood sugar levels steady/stable and provide you with better mental energy and clarity. A serving of fruit is 80 to 100 calories.
[/quote]
So, are those two unrelated effects of fructose or are they related? Liver glycogen levels affect our mental energy and clarity?

And, would you suggest different number of servings of fruits per day as needed, i.e., if I’m not having mental energy problems?

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
You’re doing great, jthsiao!!! And thanks for the kind words! (grin)[/quote]

Thanks for the encouragement! And, you deserve every bit of the accolades , and much, much more. :slight_smile:

jthsiao, I’ve seen you sharing the things you’ve learned with others. That’s the biggest thank you a person can give me. Helping/Teaching/Explaining has its own set of rewards. The more you explain things, the better you learn your subject matter. So thank YOU!!! (grin)

It’s hard when you try to switch from a low-carb diet to one that includes more carbs in general and optimized PWO nutrition. There’s some things that we need to work through in our heads. Stop to think about it. If a person’s per-meal protein requirements were 30g and they were supposed to be taking in 60g of starchy carbs in their PWO meal, that’s only 240 calories. If the 240 calories in your PWO meal were 240 calories ABOVE MAINTENANCE, it would take you over 2 weeks to put on one legitimate pound of scale weight because it takes roughly 3500 EXTRA calories to add one pound.

I think I’ll stay with the sprouted wheat bread as the source of my starchy carbs until I finish (or else my poor wife will go crazy with all the different food that I try to incorporate into my diet, but never finish), then it’s on to brown rice. :slight_smile:

Remember, “variety, variety, variety”!!! As you get more comfortable with incorporating starchy carbs into your PWO meal, try to rotate between as many of the approved starchy carbs as you possibly can. Each has its own unique set of health benefits and micronutrient profile.

This leads me to another question though. What is the purpose of filling liver glycogen with fructose?

And are those two unrelated effects of fructose or are they related? Liver glycogen levels affect our mental energy and clarity?

The carbs that you store in your muscles are there for the next time you lift weights. The carbs that you store in your liver are used ONLY to maintain blood sugar levels. They’re both stored carbs (glycogen), but they have different jobs.

And, would you suggest different number of servings of fruits per day as needed, i.e., if I’m not having mental energy problems?

There are health benefits to eating a WIDE VARIETY of fruit that have nothing to do with maintaining blood sugar levels. I get a kick out of the MLM’ers (Multi-Level Marketers) selling Mangosteen or Goji or Noni juice. If you do a search on any one (or all three) of those fruits, you’ll see the many benefits touted. Traditional Chinese Medicine is strong on using food to manage and correct health problems. So even if it’s an act of faith on your part, try to get as wide a variety of fruit, veggies, beans as you possibly can. I try to eat as many different types of fruit that I can.

Did I miss anything? (grin) Questions? I have to admit that I’m looking forward to hearing whether your energy levels have picked up in the gym or not.

Thanks for the clarification! I’m really learning a lot from you! :slight_smile:

I’m tweaking my diet some more (only with portions, not food selection) to get the correct 2:1 starchy carb to protein ratio, and also to get the right fat profile. I am really starting to see the reasoning of your recommendation of BW * 1.0 for proteins and BW * 0.4 for fats.

I find myself going upwards towards 2300 cal per day on workout days because of the fruits and yogurt that I’m eating (extra 400 cal). At this point, I’m not going to worry about it and just wait and see what my trend on the new diet will be. Patience was never my strong suit and I’m trying to learn how to be more patient. :slight_smile:

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
I have to admit that I’m looking forward to hearing whether your energy levels have picked up in the gym or not. [/quote]

I’m very curious about how long it will take to get my energy levels back up again. I think you alluded to three workouts (which would be a week) of good PWO meals in one of your previous posts. What should I do during this time? Should I still try to lift heavy? Or, should I plan some kind of “de-load” week?

Terry: i really enjoy your writing and like your methods. Could you possibly share with your take on workout methods? I’m using edt (for fatloss) now, it’s hard as hell ( i had to do a deload week after 3weeks cause i was so sore with all that pressure and low carbs - but it’s working). Your dieting methods are similar to mine, that’s why i’d like to see your idea of gym work. Regards,

I’m not the most patient person in the world, either, if I’m not seeing results. But there’s only two ways you can make decisions … logically, analytically, scientifically or emotionally. Scientists (and engineers? (grin)) make decisions based on data and based on trends.

You’re learning a lot, jthsiao!!!

I’m very curious about how long it will take to get my energy levels back up again. I think you alluded to three workouts (which would be a week) of good PWO meals in one of your previous posts. What should I do during this time? Should I still try to lift heavy? Or, should I plan some kind of “de-load” week?

I think it’s a good idea to listen to your body. You can lift heavy, but end on a win. Don’t lift to failure and don’t do eccentrics. They’re both too hard on the CNS. Get some extra sleep if you can, and consider giving Power Drive a try. Power Drive is good for CNS recovery. There are two reasons your workouts could be lacking. One possibility is insufficient carbs. The other is CNS exhaustion. Dieting is a stressor. Working out is a stressor. It might just be that things are catching up with you.

How is your sleep? Are you getting enough (okay) or getting more (better)?

If it were a carb thing, one really good starchy-carb meal after your workout should have you feeling better. A week (3 workouts) is a gracious plenty if you’re hitting the numbers I recommended.

Blinq, it doesn’t matter what type of workout you do. What matters is that your diet and workout are COMPLEMENTARY.

I like EDT. EDT with no PWO starchy carbs to refill muscle glycogen is a rough gig. In fact the article says, “However, there is a price to be paid for quick results, and this program does exact a heavy toll. Cosgrove joking refers to it as ‘Rambo training – it?s not for wussies.’”

We’re all different, Blinq, and we all have different activity levels. I could see EDT for Fatloss working well for some people, but not others. Me? I like to adjust the starchy carbs a person consumes PWO based on how well they are recovering and energy levels. We’re all to individual.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with kicking your weight loss into high gear for a short period of time (Velocity Diet or EDT for Fatloss), but it really is about making LIFESTYLE changes, and that takes some thought and sometimes some compromises.

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with kicking your weight loss into high gear for a short period of time (Velocity Diet or EDT for Fatloss), but it really is about making LIFESTYLE changes, and that takes some thought and sometimes some compromises.[/quote]

Nicely put, TT, there are no short cuts in life.

I’ll take this time while I’m eating my starchy PWO meal to do an update on my workouts this week.

Today was my third and last workout this week (MWF). I’ve been getting about 500 calories and 57g carb and 37g protein (little less than 2:1) ratio of starchy carbs to protein, for my POW meal now for the third time this week. What I’ve noticed in my workouts this week is that my endurance is longer, but my maximal strength is still not quite up to my previous max during the Velocity Diet.

An example of this is in my inclined DB press. I did 70x3 for 10 sets last Friday. Today, I was feel adventurous and tried to do the exercise with 75’s. I could barely get the DBs into position and couldn’t move the weight at all.

I then dropped down to the 70’s since I obviously wasn’t ready to move up in weight. I manage to eek out a very strained 3 reps with VERY bad form. After that set, I went down in weight again and did 4 more sets of 65x5 with decent form and called it quits for that exercise.

Although my weight in the maximal strength type exercises weren’t up to par, my strength in the endurance type exercises were better. My weight for exercises in the 8-10 rep range are going up. I’m not sure what to make of this. Is this because my body is more carb-loaded so I have the endurance, but the cutting diet is sapping me of my muscle, which is reflected in my strength?

Regarding my body weight, I measured last night just for the heck of it (Sunday mornings are my official weigh-ins) and I was at 165.0lbs! Last Sunday, I weighed-in at 168.0lbs. I was a bit surprised (and scared) because I dropped 3lbs in 4 days this week. Taking in account that a person is usually heavier at night, it means that I’ve probably lost a little bit more than 3lbs in this time period.

But, I guess fat-loss seem to go in spurts, so I’ll just take it as it comes. The real important measure that matters is not what the scale says anyway, it’s how I look in the mirror. :stuck_out_tongue:

That’s a good update, jthsiao. And using the Outcome-Based Decision Making paradigm, I’d like to see you increase calories by 500 calories per day. That’s about as much as I like to jump in one week. That jump in calories, by the way needs to be IN ADDITION TO your upcoming cheat/treat/free meal.

You touched on something key … and that is that progress is sometimes made in fits and starts. I like to look at trends … a person’s progress (or not) in the context of the last 3 weeks progress.

Review and make sure that you’re getting your 1g of protein per pound of body weight and 0.4g of fat per pound of body weight and add the extra calories in, in the form of carbohydrates.

Make sure you’re getting your 1 cup of beans and your 3 servings of fruit and that you’re maxed out on your fibrous green veggies, at which point you’ll need to start adding in carbs that are starchier in nature. The last thing to look at is your PWO nutrition.

Make sure you are getting that 2:1 ratio of starchy carbs to protein. The increased calories and everything else I touched on should help you to take it up a notch.

I can’t tell whether you’re losing LBM or not, but at least you were able to catch this pretty quickly and make adjustments. Your maintenance calories is just higher than you thought it was!!! That’s a good thing. (grin)