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Jthsiao -- Dietary Critique

I am posting this on behalf of Jthsiao . . .

I am nearing the end of my Velocity Diet and I am not quite as thin as I’d like yet. So I’d like to continue to cut while I transition off of the Velocity Diet. Since I’m coming off of a 1700 cal diet, I’d like to shoot for 2000 cal as I transition off. The following is my first try for a plan. Can you give me some critiques?

Meal 1 (7:00): P+F
3-egg omelet
1 slice of turkey
30 grams of part skim mozzarella cheese
6 ounces of green pepper
Cal: 406, Carb: 11.5, Prot: 37.6, Fat: 22.6, Fiber: 3.4

Meal 2 (10:00): P+C
2 servings of Metabolic Drive
1 container of light yogurt
Cal: 310, Carb: 26, Prot: 48, Fat: 3, Fiber: 2

Meal 3 (11:30): Peri-Workout
1 serving of Surge!
Cal: 340, Carb: 45, Prot: 25, Fat: 2.5, Fiber: 0

Meal 4 (14:00): P+C+F (???)
6 ounces of chicken breast
6 ounces of broccoli
6 ounces of spinach
1/2 avocado
Cal: 425, Carb: 21, Prot: 57, Fat: 14.5, Fiber: 12

Meal 5 (18:00): P+F
6 ounces of top sirloin
6 ounces of zucchini
Cal: 369, Carb: 5, Prot: 36, Fat: 22, Fiber: 1.7

Meal 6 (21:00): P+C
2 servings of Metabolic Drive
Cal: 200, Carb: 8, Prot: 40, Fat: 3, Fiber: 2

Day total:
Cal: 2050, Carb: 116, Prot: 243.7, Fat: 67.8, Fiber: 21

Percentage of calorie:
Carb: 22.7%, Prot: 47.5%, Fat: 29.8%

The problem with this plan is that I’m not sure what to have for my PWO. I’d like to have an avocado with my chicken salad, but that tilts the meal more towards P+F instead of P+C. I think ideally, my PWO meal would be a P+C with some starchy carbs, right? However, I think I’ll need the fiber and don’t want to add too much carbs to my diet at this point.

Should I flip-flop Meal 2 and Meal 4, as Meal 2 has more sugar-like carb from yogurt while Meal 4 has carb mainly from vegetables?

Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated!

If it’s your first try, all I can say is wow! (grin) It’s obvious that you put a lot of thought into things.

I like the structure. I like the 6 meals. One opportunity I see is your peri-workout nutrition. Have your Surge in divided doses, 1/3 as you walk in the door, 1/3 during and 1/3 as you’re walking out the door. Follow with a whole-food P+C meal that includes starchy carbs in a 2:1 ratio with protein (twice the carbs in grams as protein). That whole-food meal should follow the last serving of Surge by 1 hour. You may have to readjust your times slightly.

Good/excellent food choices!!! (grin)

Make meals 1, 2 and 4 P+C meals. Have your omelet and turkey later in the day. Meals 1, 2 and 4 would ideally have a small serving of fruit, even if you had to take the carbs and calories from some of the veggies you’re taking in. The fructose in fruit will refill liver glycogen and keep blood sugar levels steady/stable and provide you with better mental energy and clarity. A serving of fruit is 80 to 100 calories.

Your whole-food PWO meal should include some starchy carbs, as I said. Healthful possibilities are oatmeal, sweet potatoes, yams, whole wheat pasta, quinoa, amaranth, brown rice. Insulin is a very anabolic hormone. You can use it to your advantage.

The avaocado could go in with your omelet if you really wanted to get it in. (grin)

The only thing I need to know is what you expect your weight will be when you start this diet. I’d like to look at your protein intake and your fat intake and make some recommendations on fat. We could fix the fiber thing, for example, by grinding flax seeds. That would kill two birds with one stone, providing you with Omega 3 fatty acids (you need 'em!) and fiber, both. Another thing you can do is add in some celery. Don’t bother to count the calories or grams of anything. They’re negligible, but will up your fiber intake. Oatmeal in your PWO whole-food meal would also! (grin)

Very, very nice job, Jthsiao, right out of the starting gate.

Questions? (grin)

Thanks for posting this for me Tampa-Terry and I look forward to all the suggestions on how I can tweak my diet. Thanks!

Thanks for your reply, Tampa-Terry! Since it was posted at 10:30pm in PDT, it’s gotta be really late there in the East Coast! At least, that’s where I assume you are with your handle. :slight_smile:

I’ve gone through your post and you gave a lot of food for thought. I’m gonna sit on it until tomorrow. Because I’ve already prepared my food for tomorrow, I’ll continue as planned for tomorrow. However, I’ll use tomorrow to tweak the plan some more and see if I can add in the suggestions that you mentioned. Thanks for all your help. I really appreciate it!

Now, it’s time to get some sleep so I can do my NEPA first thing tomorrow morning! :slight_smile:

Hi,

I like your food planning. I was going to ask how much you weight and how active are you?

PS. What’s NEPA??

Good work on the diet. Sorry but I can’t help you much yet I’m learning myself.

[quote]JuicyLucy wrote:
PS. What’s NEPA??[/quote]

Non-Exercise Physical Activity

The things you do when not in the gym that can burn calories. NEPA can be enhanced by taking stairs instead of elevators, parking your car further away from the door of the grocery store, or taking your dog to the park to throw a frisbee instead of just letting him run around the yard on his own.

Increasing NEPA by even small amounts can help “shake loose” some of that BF you’re trying to get rid of, especially if your day job tends to be sedentary.

[quote]JuicyLucy wrote:
Hi,

I like your food planning. I was going to ask how much you weight and how active are you?

PS. What’s NEPA??

Good work on the diet. Sorry but I can’t help you much yet I’m learning myself.[/quote]

I’m coming off of the Velocity Diet and have dropped my weight from 180# to 169.5# this morning. I’m 5’7" as stated in my profile.

I wouldn’t consider myself very active anymore. I used to be pretty active in high school when I played on the tennis team. But real life ™ with a job and a family kind of put some of the more active hobbies on the back-burner.

These days, I workout MWF, similar to the workout by Chris Shugart when he was on the Velocity Diet, and have started to take morning walks last week. That’s what N.E.P.A.s (non-exercise physical activities) are. This was recommended by Dr. Lonnie Lowery here:

https://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=927737

And it was also recommend by Chris and others. I’ve also knew I was supposed to do it. But after digging up the article on “why” I should do it made me more motivated and changed my schedule around to fit that in.

I’ve read your thread on P/C/F ratios. There’s a lot to learn regarding nutrition, especially with everyone having different schedules. I’m constantly learning new things from others such as Tampa-Terry here on the forums. Not eating meat as a source of protein is tough but with knowledgeable people around, I’m sure you can do it! Good luck to you in your diet!

[quote]TShaw wrote:
Non-Exercise Physical Activity

The things you do when not in the gym that can burn calories. NEPA can be enhanced by taking stairs instead of elevators, parking your car further away from the door of the grocery store, or taking your dog to the park to throw a frisbee instead of just letting him run around the yard on his own.

Increasing NEPA by even small amounts can help “shake loose” some of that BF you’re trying to get rid of, especially if your day job tends to be sedentary.[/quote]

That was a great explanation! It was a lot better than I could describe it. :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]jthsiao wrote:

That was a great explanation! It was a lot better than I could describe it. :-P[/quote]

I got game. :wink:

You’re most welcome, jthsiao!!!

Re the walking, I found it to be good for an additional pound a week. Who among us wouldn’t love to lose a pound of FAT per week? (grin)

Good posts and information shared on this thread!!!

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
I like the structure. I like the 6 meals. One opportunity I see is your peri-workout nutrition. Have your Surge in divided doses, 1/3 as you walk in the door, 1/3 during and 1/3 as you’re walking out the door. Follow with a whole-food P+C meal that includes starchy carbs in a 2:1 ratio with protein (twice the carbs in grams as protein). That whole-food meal should follow the last serving of Surge by 1 hour. You may have to readjust your times slightly.
[/quote]
I actually tried having 1/3 of my Surge! before, 1/3 during, and 1/3 after in my workout last Friday. It worked pretty good so I think I’ll keep that. My workouts are kind of long (~1 1/2 hours), so the 2:00pm meal is about 1 1/2 hour after my workout. I can move that up a bit to get food into my system a little earlier. :slight_smile:

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
Make meals 1, 2 and 4 P+C meals. Have your omelet and turkey later in the day. Meals 1, 2 and 4 would ideally have a small serving of fruit, even if you had to take the carbs and calories from some of the veggies you’re taking in. The fructose in fruit will refill liver glycogen and keep blood sugar levels steady/stable and provide you with better mental energy and clarity. A serving of fruit is 80 to 100 calories.

Your whole-food PWO meal should include some starchy carbs, as I said. Healthful possibilities are oatmeal, sweet potatoes, yams, whole wheat pasta, quinoa, amaranth, brown rice. Insulin is a very anabolic hormone. You can use it to your advantage.

The avaocado could go in with your omelet if you really wanted to get it in. (grin)
[/quote]
Here’s my original line of thought when I put together this diet, so please interject with your thoughts where changes need to be made. I’m trying to get a variety of protein sources, which includes eggs, turkey, chicken, and steak. I had also planned to switch between the steak and mahi mahi for my P+F dinner. Because both eggs and steak are high in fat, that pretty much guarantee at least two P+F meals in a day. Since my last “meal” is a pre-bed protein shake, I don’t think I can do an omelet there.

Given that I’ll have at least two P+F meals in a day, and the meals before and after the workout should be P+C to get better insulin action, that leaves breakfast as my P+F meal, which is why I planned eggs there.

Is this line of thinking correct? What is the trade-off between getting carbs as early in the day as possible, versus getting carbs before/after workout? With these same food choices (chosen for my lack of culinary skills and my picky taste-buds), is there a better way to rearrange my meals? More specifically, when should I eat the eggs? :slight_smile:

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
The only thing I need to know is what you expect your weight will be when you start this diet. I’d like to look at your protein intake and your fat intake and make some recommendations on fat. We could fix the fiber thing, for example, by grinding flax seeds. That would kill two birds with one stone, providing you with Omega 3 fatty acids (you need 'em!) and fiber, both. Another thing you can do is add in some celery. Don’t bother to count the calories or grams of anything. They’re negligible, but will up your fiber intake. Oatmeal in your PWO whole-food meal would also! (grin)
[/quote]

I’m coming off of the Velocity Diet where I dropped from 180lbs to now 169.5lbs. My goal is to reach 160lbs (just a guess) so that I’m lean enough to do a clean bulk without adding too much fat. My last attempt to bulk at 17% fat resulted in a 50% fat gain. :frowning:

I hear you regarding the flax seed, but after eating that for the last four weeks, I’d want to stay away from that for a while. :slight_smile:

I think celery is a great suggestion! I’m thinking of adding that to my Meal #2, what do you think? It’s fairly light so that I’m sure I can eat it without having it affect my workout.

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
Very, very nice job, Jthsiao, right
out of the starting gate.
[/quote]
Thanks for the encouragement and for all your help. I look forward to your reply regarding carb-usage and planning around the workout. Thanks!

>> My workouts are kind of long (~1 1/2 hours), so the 2:00pm meal is about 1 1/2 hour after my workout. I can move that up a bit to get food into my system a little earlier. :slight_smile:

Following your workout, you are extremely insulin sensitive (a good thing!). As time goes by, you become less so, which is why you want to eat an hour after you polish off the rest of your Surge. Since part of manipulating body composition (the ratio of lean to fat) is increasing LBM and reducing FM, we want to take full advantage of that anabolic window of opportunity. Get that whole-food P+C meal in one hour after your workout and spread your other meals out a bit more if you have to.

1.5 hours is pushing it on a workout. Try to shorten that to one hour if possible. If you’re doing cardio in that 1.5 hours, try doing that at another time. HIIT (which I strongly recommend to anyone wanting to strip fat!) can be done at home, in front of your house.

Re the variety, you’ve got my full support! Dietary variety is one of my core values. (grin) For chicken and turkey, buy white meat and you won’t have a problem with your fat being too high. You can reduce the fat on your eggs a bit by mixing egg whites with whole eggs.

Let me give you a little more background on how I do what I do and how my mind works. In my mind a P+C meal is a place holder for a piece of fruit. You should be getting 3 servings a day. P+F meals are place holders for GOOD FAT. You need at least 2 P+F meals per day. One would get olive oil. The other would get flaxseed oil and/or fish oil.

On the one hand, I’m putting a cap or limit on fat intake. On the other hand I’m telling you that you need to be consuming x grams of olive oil and x grams of flaxseed/fish oil. There’s not a lot of fat left over. You’ll have to pick leaner cuts of meat in general if you don’t want to go over on fat, yet still get in the other things I’ve made a "requirement. The reason it is a requirement is because I’m trying to make sure you get roughly equal amounts of monounsaturated fat, polyunsaturated fat and saturated fat. It can be done, but honestly, the only way to pull it off is putting your plan together the day before so that you can tweak, adjust manipulate and fine-tune all the numbers.

I have no problem with your logic, jthsiao. There’s more than one way to skin a cat. When all is said and done, if I haven’t made persuasive/logical argument, I have no problem with your doing things YOUR way. (grin)

As it relates to manipulatng carbs (type, timing & amount), the things I care most about are that there is PWO nutrition with a 2:1 ratio of starchy carbs to protein following resistance training (not cardio) and that carbs (other than PWO carbs) are consumed earlier in the day, with P+F meals being consumed later in the day. The two times you are more insulin sensitive (a good thing), are upon rising (and growing increasingly less so as the day progresses) and following a workout.

BTW, there are a lot of things I track and set limits on, but I don’t limit fibrous green veggie carbs. And even though I might look at someone’s caloric intake if that information is available, I only give it passing consideration. Calories are irrelevant if you’re getting all the protein you need (but no more) and all the GOOD fat you need (but no more). There are limits on beans and fruit, even though I make them a requirement.

I assume you’ve read http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1509230 on how to design a diet?

By the way, if you’d like some help in the culinary part of things, send Chef Lisa Marie a PM and ask her to stop by your thread. She’s as good at teach people the basics (cooking technique) as she is at teaching people how to add spice and pizazz to otherwise bland fare.

As far as the eggs go, you can have them any meal. Mix a combination of whole eggs with egg whites to get the P and F numbers you want for that meal. The ratios will be different, depending on whether you’re having your eggs at a P+C meal (more egg whites) or a P+F meal (more whole eggs).

Got you on the flax SEED! (grin) Celery’s a good option/alternative.

Questions? Did I miss anything?

Ahh, what a pleasure it is to come back from my workout, chomping on my PWO P+C (chicken, broccoli, and yogurt), and seeing your post in my Message Center! Thanks for your input!

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
Following your workout, you are extremely insulin sensitive (a good thing!). As time goes by, you become less so, which is why you want to eat an hour after you polish off the rest of your Surge. Since part of manipulating body composition (the ratio of lean to fat) is increasing LBM and reducing FM, we want to take full advantage of that anabolic window of opportunity. Get that whole-food P+C meal in one hour after your workout and spread your other meals out a bit more if you have to.

1.5 hours is pushing it on a workout. Try to shorten that to one hour if possible.
[/quote]
Got it! In fact, I started heating up my food as soon as I got back from the gym today. I ended up eating about an hour after I finished working out, since I spent another half an hour at the gym training my wife. :slight_smile:

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
Let me give you a little more background on how I do what I do and how my mind works. In my mind a P+C meal is a place holder for a piece of fruit. You should be getting 3 servings a day. P+F meals are place holders for GOOD FAT. You need at least 2 P+F meals per day. One would get olive oil. The other would get flaxseed oil and/or fish oil.

On the one hand, I’m putting a cap or limit on fat intake. On the other hand I’m telling you that you need to be consuming x grams of olive oil and x grams of flaxseed/fish oil. There’s not a lot of fat left over. You’ll have to pick leaner cuts of meat in general if you don’t want to go over on fat, yet still get in the other things I’ve made a "requirement. The reason it is a requirement is because I’m trying to make sure you get roughly equal amounts of monounsaturated fat, polyunsaturated fat and saturated fat. It can be done, but honestly, the only way to pull it off is putting your plan together the day before so that you can tweak, adjust manipulate and fine-tune all the numbers.
[/quote]
After reading several of your threads, I think one of your general approach is to eat enough protein for building muscle, but not too much. I think you’ve also said the same thing for fat. I believe the ratio you used before was BW x 1.0 for protein and BW x 0.4 for fat, correct?

And, I think the rest of your calories you’d rather it come from carbs. Can you explaining your reasoning (or sources, if you’re using another person’s system) for this distribution? I hope I don’t sound like I’m challenging you, but I’m an engineer by trade and I guess curiosity is ingrained within me. :stuck_out_tongue:

I appreciate your support of variety and of a balanced fat distribution. I agree with that line of thinking and will analyze my fat breakdown even more (I’ve been too lazy to do so thus far).

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
I assume you’ve read
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1509230
on how to design a diet?
[/quote]
You mentioned in the thread above that you’d prefer a P+F meal before a workout. Why is that? I thought one would want a P+C meal before a workout to get the insulin levels high, similar to why we’d want to drink Surge! with high levels of fast carbs/protein to get the protein into the muscles. What is the advantage of having a P+F meal before a workout?

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
Got you on the flax SEED! (grin) Celery’s a good option/alternative.
[/quote]
Yes, flax seed… After doing the Velocity Diet, I find that I’d rather deal with flax oil. At least I can chug down the flax oil and chase it with something else. I used to have a tbsp of flax oil as part of my pre-bed meal. The milled flax seed gave me an undesirable texture in my shake and also made me gag a few times.

Although, I managed to get it down and never really went to the point of throwing up, I’d still rather not deal with it if I don’t have to. :stuck_out_tongue:

Taking a step back, as a general meal layout without getting into the specific food selection, what would you think of the following plan:

07:00: P+C, including starchy carb and fruit
10:00: P+F, fish oil
11:30: P+C, peri-workout - Surge!
13:30: P+C, including starchy carb and fruit
18:00: P+F
21:00: P+F, flax oil if needed

I’ll go figure out what specific food and portions, but what do you think of the general direction?

Oh, and forgive me if I sound anything like I’m challenging your approach. That’s sort of the way I talk. :stuck_out_tongue: I like to understand everything, and I’m definitely keeping an open mind to all suggestions. :slight_smile:

Actually, when I said, “1.5 hours is pushing it on a workout. Try to shorten that to one hour if possible” I meant a workout 1.5 hours in duration is pushing it a bit. Even though we CAN do more, the trick is to do all of what is necessary and not one iota more! Get in, provide a “stimulus for growth,” and get OUT. What we’re trying to do is maximize the benefits of working out while minimizing the negatives of working out. At around the hour mark the negatives are starting to outweigh the benefits.

Your food choices PWO are definitely healthy!!! But in the whole-food meal following resistance training, I generally recommend a 2:1 ratio of starchy carbs to protein. If you’re getting 35g of protein per meal, shoot for 70g of starchy carbs. PWO you want to spike insulin! Spiking insulin lowers cortisol levels. Spiking insulin makes sure that the carbs you eat refill the muscles you just worked out. Spiking insulin facilitates protein synthesis. Insulin needs to be managed, yes, but it is not the devil.

After reading several of your threads, I think one of your general approach is to eat enough protein for building muscle, but not too much. I think you’ve also said the same thing for fat. I believe the ratio you used before was BW x 1.0 for protein and BW x 0.4 for fat, correct?

Exactly right! (grin)

And, I think the rest of your calories you’d rather it come from carbs. Can you explaining your reasoning (or sources, if you’re using another person’s system) for this distribution? I hope I don’t sound like I’m challenging you, but I’m an engineer by trade and I guess curiosity is ingrained within me. :stuck_out_tongue:

Questions are good! (grin) I don’t really follow anyone’s system. That’s not to say that I haven’t been greatly influenced by the research and writings of John Berardi and Lonnie Lowery. With very few exceptions, I use the numbers for protein and fat above with women and with men, bulking or cutting. The type, timing and amount of carbs is what I manipulate. More veggies when cutting. Carbs a bit starchier in nature (and with lower amounts of fiber) when bulking. Always an emphasis on health!

Why do I calculate P and F first? Because they’re not negotiable. You need them for health and you need them to protect muscle wwhen dieting and rebuild and make repairs. Fat isn’t negotiable, either. The right type and amounts of fat keep hormones balanced. Fats don’t spike insulin and in sufficient quantity, the ensure there isn’t too severe a caloric deficit. Fat can raise your good cholesterol and lower your bad and reduce inflammation.

But even though I have my way I do things and numbers I believe in and recommend, that doesn’t mean that you can’t experiment to see what works best for you. Lately I’ve been testing the Anabolic Diet, so fat is coming in at about 60% and carbs are non-existent (<30g). There’s definitely more than one way to skin a cat!

You mentioned in the thread above that you’d prefer a P+F meal before a workout.

It isn’t set in stone, and I may go back and edit that. It was written a long time ago. There are times I set someone up so that they’re getting a P-only meal before their workout. Other times it’s a P+C meal. Other times a P+F. It’s not going to be the same diet for all people. You tweak and adjust and accomodate preferences where you can. If a person is more active earlier in the day, they benefit by P+C meals then. Some people work out early. Others work out late. Since I definitely want a whole-food starchy-carb P+C meal following the workout, I’ll juggle everything else around that higher priority.

How I set up the times for people is by working around those things that are set in stone. Say a workout. If your workout was from 11:30 to 12:30, I’d work around that:

07:00 - P+C (w/ fruit)
10:00 - P+C (w/ fruit)
11:30 - 12:30 Workout & Surge
13:30 - Whole food, starchy-carb P+C meal (w/ fruit)
17:00 - P+F
21:00 - P+F

The starchy carbs you’re having at 7:00 are optional. And if your progress isn’t what you would like after two or three weeks, I’d cut 'em out. Other options are Fiber One Cereal (the highest-fiber version) and Metabolic Drive and a piece of fruit. Or possibly an egg white omelet with one whole egg, veggies and a piece of fruit (pineapple being a favorite! (grin))

Question away, jthsiao. I’m willing to share anything I know. If I missed something, just hit me up again. The better you understand what you are doing, the better able you will be to adjust and tweak your plan to suit your purposes. Truth be told, it doesn’t matter what plan and numbers I give someone … it’s probably going to need to be adusted and changed along the way. Maybe it’s an accomodation or preference. Maybe it’s a lack of progress or even weight lost too quickly. I might do my best to explain why things are important, but I’ll negotiate a lot of things. A person’s plan has to work for them on a lot of different levels. If it doesn’t, they won’t stick with it. I call that process of negotiating and problem solving “dancing.” (grin)

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
Actually, when I said, “1.5 hours is pushing it on a workout. Try to shorten that to one hour if possible” I meant a workout 1.5 hours in duration is pushing it a bit. Even though we CAN do more, the trick is to do all of what is necessary and not one iota more! Get in, provide a “stimulus for growth,” and get OUT. What we’re trying to do is maximize the benefits of working out while minimizing the negatives of working out. At around the hour mark the negatives are starting to outweigh the benefits.
[/quote]

What’s your opinion on workouts while cutting? Lately, I’ve been doing a workout similar Chris Shugart’s workout when he was on the Velocity Diet. Basically, it calls for 10x3 on a big compound exercise (such as bench press, deadlift, and dips) and some other supplementation supersets.

The main reason why my workouts are so long is because of those big 10x3’s. I tend to take longer rests between those sets because I’m just so beat up going near my max every time. However, I’m under the impression that HEAVY lifting is required during cutting, since we need to give the body a reason to keep our muscles. Would you suggest lowering the number of sets of those 10x3’s?

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
I don’t really follow anyone’s system. That’s not to say that I haven’t been greatly influenced by the research and writings of John Berardi and Lonnie Lowery. With very few exceptions, I use the numbers for protein and fat above with women and with men, bulking or cutting. The type, timing and amount of carbs is what I manipulate. More veggies when cutting. Carbs a bit starchier in nature (and with lower amounts of fiber) when bulking. Always an emphasis on health!

Why do I calculate P and F first? Because they’re not negotiable. You need them for health and you need them to protect muscle wwhen dieting and rebuild and make repairs. Fat isn’t negotiable, either. The right type and amounts of fat keep hormones balanced. Fats don’t spike insulin and in sufficient quantity, the ensure there isn’t too severe a caloric deficit. Fat can raise your good cholesterol and lower your bad and reduce inflammation.
[/quote]

I understand not going lower than your recommendations for protein and fat, but what I don’t understand is not going over.

I’ve read anywhere from BW * 1.0 to even as much as BW * 2.0 grams of protein. Why is your recommendation exactly at BW * 1.0, nothing more and nothing less? Is there a drawback with eating too much protein?

Regarding fats, I also understand a minimum amount one should have in their diet. However, why fix it at BW * 0.4? Why not more, a la the Anabolic Diet? Is there a drawback with eating too much fat?

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
But even though I have my way I do things and numbers I believe in and recommend, that doesn’t mean that you can’t experiment to see what works best for you. Lately I’ve been testing the Anabolic Diet, so fat is coming in at about 60% and carbs are non-existent (<30g). There’s definitely more than one way to skin a cat!
[/quote]
Now that you’re trying out the Anabolic Diet, what are your thoughts on it? Has the diet affected your thoughts on other C/P/F ratios? Basically, what’s the “latest” in the Tampa-Terry philosophy? :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
How I set up the times for people is by working around those things that are set in stone. Say a workout. If your workout was from 11:30 to 12:30, I’d work around that:

07:00 - P+C (w/ fruit)
10:00 - P+C (w/ fruit)
11:30 - 12:30 Workout & Surge
13:30 - Whole food, starchy-carb P+C meal (w/ fruit)
17:00 - P+F
21:00 - P+F
[/quote]

What are your opinions regarding non-workout days? I know that you’ve mentioned in other threads about making two different menus. However, what is your approach to non-workout days? Would you still want to spike insulin at different times of the day? Without a workout to schedule around, is there any reason to have a heavy-carb meal? Would we end up reducing the number of P+C meals and be mainly P+F, somewhat similar to Carb Cycling by Christian Thibaudeau?

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
The starchy carbs you’re having at 7:00 are optional. And if your progress isn’t what you would like after two or three weeks, I’d cut 'em out. Other options are Fiber One Cereal (the highest-fiber version) and Metabolic Drive and a piece of fruit. Or possibly an egg white omelet with one whole egg, veggies and a piece of fruit (pineapple being a favorite! (grin))
[/quote]

Where can you buy just egg-white? I hear they come in cartons? How are the quality/freshness of egg whites from those cartons? Would they choose near-rotten eggs and use egg whites from those? I don’t know too much about buying just egg whites. For my previous meals, I’ve hard-boiled eggs and just throw away the yolk, but that just seems like such a waste to me. :frowning:

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
Question away, jthsiao. I’m willing to share anything I know. If I missed something, just hit me up again. The better you understand what you are doing, the better able you will be to adjust and tweak your plan to suit your purposes. Truth be told, it doesn’t matter what plan and numbers I give someone … it’s probably going to need to be adusted and changed along the way. Maybe it’s an accomodation or preference. Maybe it’s a lack of progress or even weight lost too quickly. I might do my best to explain why things are important, but I’ll negotiate a lot of things. A person’s plan has to work for them on a lot of different levels. If it doesn’t, they won’t stick with it. I call that process of negotiating and problem solving “dancing.” (grin)
[/quote]

Thanks again for all your help. I really appreciate all the “dancing” we’ve done so far. :slight_smile:

I’m on the third day after my Velocity Diet and I’ve been tweaking my diet these past few days to figure out a good schedule to follow.

Currently, my diet look like this:

07:00 (Meal #1) P+C
5 slices of turkey breast
60g of mushroom
76g of green peppers
120g of spinach
68g of tomatoes
117g of green grapes
Cal: 335, Carb: 45.6, Prot: 32.5, Fat: 2.5, Fiber: 6.6

10:00 (Meal #2) P+C
2 scoops of Metablic Drive! protein shake
117g of green grapes
Cal: 281, Carb: 29.1, Prot: 41.2, Fat: 3.0, Fiber: 2.0

11:30 (Meal #3) P+C
3 scoops of Surge
Cal: 340 Carb: 45.0, Prot: 25.0, Fat: 2.5, Fiber: 0.0

14:00 (Meal #4) P+C
85g of chicken breast strips
170g of broccoli
170g of zucchini
1 container of yogurt
117g of green grapes
Cal: 379, Carb: 52.2, Prot: 40.1, Fat: 2.0, Fiber: 5.7

18:00 (Meal #5) P+F
200g of top sirloin
68g of avocado
4 softgels of Biotest Flameout fish oil
Cal: 567, Carb: 6.0, Prot: 42.7, Fat: 42.1, Fiber: 4.5

21:00 (Meal #6) P+F
2 eggs
1 tablespoon of extra virgin olive oil
Cal: 296, Carb: 0.0, Prot: 15.2, Fat: 25.4, Fiber: 0.0

Day Total:
Cal: 2199, Carb: 177.8, Prot: 196.8, Fat: 77.6, Fiber: 18.8
Carb: 32.4%, Prot: 35.8%, Fat: 31.8%

I’d still like to work in some celery in the morning and some sprouted grain bread in Meal #4 for PWO. But, I haven’t had the chance to buy them yet, so I haven’t added those into my diet. When I get a hold of those, I’ll have to tweak the portions of the other things to make them fit, but that’s for later. This is definitely a plan in progress. :slight_smile:

As of this morning, I didn’t gain any weight back that I lost on the Velocity Diet, but I’m not losing weight either. I’ll maintain this diet 'til the end of the week to see my progress then tweak it calorie-wise to fit my goal.

One thing that I found interesting is that all my lifts have been going down this week. I was going up and up in weight for the duration of the Velocity Diet, but this week, everything has gone down. I don’t feel particularly tired at the gym, but just don’t have any strength. I just couldn’t make it through my workouts and had to drop the weight on almost everything just to get through.

Why is this? I thought with the added carb, I should feel more energetic and have better workouts. I’m a bit disappointed at my workouts to say the least.

Comments anyone? Thanks!

What’s your opinion on workouts while cutting?

It’s a huge subject. But in a sentence or two, that the type, timing and amount of carbs need to match (or at least be approprite for) the type of workout you’re doing. A marathon runner is going to need more carbs. Someone doing strength training is going to do better on a lower-carb diet. The bottom line is that it depends and needs to be adjusted. Carbs help with recovery. Carbs help reduce cortisol levels. There just aren’t any hard and fast numbers. Carbs need to be raised and lowered depending on the person’s needs and progress. If you feel good and are recovering and making slow and steady progress towards your goals, leave everything the way it is. If you’re depleted and run down, diet and recovery need to be evaluated. Example, I cannot do HIIT on a diet with <60g of carbs or less.

The main reason why my workouts are so long is because of those big 10x3’s. I tend to take longer rests between those sets because I’m just so beat up going near my max every time. However, I’m under the impression that HEAVY lifting is required during cutting, since we need to give the body a reason to keep our muscles. Would you suggest lowering the number of sets of those 10x3’s?

I didn’t read the second quote until after I typed my reply. There’s nothing wrong with pushing your limits for a short period of time, but at a certain point, adjustments are in order. My question to you is, how many grams of starchy carbs are you taking in, in your whole-food PWO meal? Also, even though I tell people they’re allowed unlimited amounts of fibrous green veggie carbs and put limits on beans and fruit, the beans and fruit are requirements in the plans I design for people. Fruit is going to keep liver glycogen topped off. Beans with their high-fiber content are going to help with a sustained, time-released type of energy. Neither beans nor fruit consumed in the quantities I recommend will spike insulin.

But you’re really onto something, jthsiao, asking these questions. It’s very intuitive of you. I wish more people listened to their bodies.

I understand not going lower than your recommendations for protein and fat, but what I don’t understand is not going over.

Because I want the calories for carbohydrates. It would be like taking a multi-vitamin and saying, but why can’t I take more magnesium if I want to. I’d come back and say, well the vitamins are hard to swallow as it is, they’re so big. We either have to reduce something else or make the pills bigger.

Carbohydrates provide us with flavor and variety in the food we eat, but more importantly, they provide us with health-promoting vitamins and minerals and phytonutrients that are health promoting. Remember my core values of health first and variety, variety, variety? (grin)

Besides, even though I might have carbs coming in higher than you would like, I’ve got a pretty tight handle on the type, timing and amount. Don’t let that “unlimited fibrous green veggies” fool you. (grin) Different types of carbs do different things.

Fruit (helps refill liver glycogen)
Fibrous green veggies (full of vitamins, minerals, phytonutrients, fiber)
Starchy carbs (good for refilling muscle glycogen following a workout)
Flavor carbs (puts the “quality” back into “quality of life”) (grin)

By “flavor carbs,” I mean garlic, onions, ginger, peppers (hot or otherwise), mushrooms, salsa, horseradish, mustard, vinegar, soy sauce, lemon juice, etc.

I’ve read anywhere from BW * 1.0 to even as much as BW * 2.0 grams of protein. Why is your recommendation exactly at BW * 1.0, nothing more and nothing less? Is there a drawback with eating too much protein?

Nope, there’s not a drawback to eating too much protein. Every one of us picks a path, jthsiao, and have numbers we like that get us the results we want when designing a diet for ourselves or others. I used to use 1.5g of protein x LBM, but that required that people get their body fat percentage taken. Your body fat percentage might be of academic interest to you if you don’t have a lot of fat to lose, but it can have a very demoralizing effect on those who have higher body fat percentages. The 1g of protein x TBW in conjunction with making fat and carb recommendations and adjustments as needed along the way, gets the results I want for people.

jthsiao, there are many ways to skin a cat and many ways to help someone improve their body composition. Mine (and my choice of numbers) is not the holy grail.

Low-carb diets can be very effective in helping people to lose weight, but don’t make carbs the bad guy. And the reason I say that (going back to the vitamin pill analogy) is that any time you increase one of your macronutrients, you have to lower another. It’s definitely a jigsaw puzzle, jthsiao. Everything fits together and is a part of a larger picture.

Regarding fats, I also understand a minimum amount one should have in their diet. However, why fix it at BW * 0.4? Why not more, a la the Anabolic Diet? Is there a drawback with eating too much fat?

Same answer … if you raise one thing (macronutrient), you have to lower another. 0.4g x TBW (with roughly equal amounts of saturated, monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fat) are protective of hormonal balance, brain chemistry (mood), cardiovascular health (like cholesterol and other cardiovascular and metabolic markers). Hormones are made from fat. The phospholipid (lipid = fat) membranes of the cells of our body are a part of the immune/inflammatory response. JB recommends 0.4 to 0.5g, but since I work mostly with people wanting to cut, I like 0.4g better. Even at that, you wouldn’t believe how many people complain about having to eat “ALL THAT FAT!!!”

What do I think of the Anabolic Diet? (grin) It’s a bit too soon to publish my thoughts. I like to look at trends over time. I’m actually playing with (testing) the number of times body weight I need to eat to maintain my weight.

What are your opinions regarding non-workout days? I know that you’ve mentioned in other threads about making two different menus. However, what is your approach to non-workout days? Would you still want to spike insulin at different times of the day? Without a workout to schedule around, is there any reason to have a heavy-carb meal? Would we end up reducing the number of P+C meals and be mainly P+F, somewhat similar to Carb Cycling by Christian Thibaudeau?

I do believe in cycling (“manipulating” is the word I use) carbs and calories. I like to operate at a bit of a caloric deficit during periods of inactivity or lower activity. And then I like to take in a bit of a caloric excess post-workout in the form of starchy carbs. You can cycle carbs in a way where whole days are designated high-, medium- or low-carb … or you can cycle within a 24-hour period. Only if a person is losing weight too quickly and max’d out on fibrous green veggies, fruit, beans and getting all their protein and good fats in, will I recommend that they start consuming measured amounts of starchier carbs.

Oatmeal in the first meal of the day is a concession I’ll reluctantly make, but it’s also the first thing I’ll change if the person isn’t losing weight at an optimal rate.

So repeating, on days that resistance training is not done, I don’t care to spike insulin, no.

I hear you on throwing out the egg yolks. I buy organic eggs, and I hate throwing 'em out, too. So what I do is consume eggs on P+F meals and pick leaner cuts of meat otherwise. That way I don’t go over on fat. Egg whites can be purchased in the grocery store. They should be right next to the cartons of eggs.

Whew! (wiping brow & grinning)

I’ll have to answer your next post after I get something to eat.

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
Whew! (wiping brow & grinning)

I’ll have to answer your next post after I get something to eat. [/quote]

Thanks for all the time you’ve put into answering my questions. This post cleared up a lot of my concerns and I’m getting a better handle of your approach.

I really appreciate all the time you’ve spent. I know I have a lot of questions, and you’ve been very patient explaining each one of my questions. I just wanted to let you know my appreciation for your efforts!

I’ll eagerly await your next post. :slight_smile:

The biggest opportunity I see is optimizing PWO nutrition. You’re eating more carbs, yes. But the fibrous green veggies aren’t going to spike insulin or refill muscle glycogen or reduce cortisol levels or shuttle amino acids to the muscles you just worked out. What I typically recommend in the whole food meal following your workout is a 2:1 ratio of starchy carbs to protein. So if you were supposed to get 28g of protein per meal, you should take in 56 to 60g of starchy carbs. You can count net carbs on that, too, if you want.

Don’t miss out on that anabolic window of opportunity following your workout!!!

Since you’re drinking 3 liters of Surge, sip one just before walking in the door, one during and one as you’re walking out the door. You should consume that whole-food P+C meal one hour after leaving the gym.

As of this morning, I didn’t gain any weight back that I lost on the Velocity Diet, but I’m not losing weight either. I’ll maintain this diet 'til the end of the week to see my progress then tweak it calorie-wise to fit my goal.

It’s a hard thing to do, but try not to weigh yourself on a daily basis. You can be doing all the right things, hitting your numbers perfectly, only to have the scale going in the wrong direction. Weigh and measure every week. The scale is going to play games with your head. You’ve increased your caloric intake by almost 350 calories. Even if you added 350 calories a day to a maintenance diet (which you are not), it would take you 10 days to gain one pound!!!

Another reason not to let the scale play tricks on you? You’ve increased carbohydrates, and glycogen (stored carbs) is stored in the muscles with water in a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio (water:glycogen).

When it comes to manipulating your body composition, yes you want to measure and monitor and adjust as you need to, but do it scientifically and analytically, based on data … based on TRENDS … meaning that you should be looking at your progress (or not!) over the course of 2 to 3 weeks.

Have you figured out that I’m trying to persuade the engineering part of your brain, there, jthsiao? (grin)

[quote]jthsiao wrote:
One thing that I found interesting is that all my lifts have been going down this week. I was going up and up in weight for the duration of the Velocity Diet, but this week, everything has gone down. I don’t feel particularly tired at the gym, but just don’t have any strength. I just couldn’t make it through my workouts and had to drop the weight on almost everything just to get through.

Why is this? I thought with the added carb, I should feel more energetic and have better workouts. I’m a bit disappointed at my workouts to say the least.
[/quote]
Do you have anything to explain this part? This is issue that I’m the most concerned about at this point. I want to keep lifting HEAVY since I’m still on a “cutting diet” of sort, even with the increased carbs. But the lack of “oomph” at the gym this week has me worried.

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
The biggest opportunity I see is optimizing PWO nutrition. You’re eating more carbs, yes. But the fibrous green veggies aren’t going to spike insulin or refill muscle glycogen or reduce cortisol levels or shuttle amino acids to the muscles you just worked out. What I typically recommend in the whole food meal following your workout is a 2:1 ratio of starchy carbs to protein. So if you were supposed to get 28g of protein per meal, you should take in 56 to 60g of starchy carbs. You can count net carbs on that, too, if you want.

Don’t miss out on that anabolic window of opportunity following your workout!!!
[/quote]
Yes, I know I still need to work on this part. I’m slowly being allowing myself to accept the 2:1 ratio of carbs to protein after workout, starchy carbs at that too! I had planned to add in a slice of sprouted grain bread for some more starchy carbs.

I had considered all the other starchy carb options, and I think for the amount that I’d eat, making a batch of brown rice or pasta might be too much effort in terms of cooking. What about a baked potato? What’s your opinion on those as a source of high-GI carb for PWO?

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
It’s a hard thing to do, but try not to weigh yourself on a daily basis. You can be doing all the right things, hitting your numbers perfectly, only to have the scale going in the wrong direction. Weigh and measure every week. The scale is going to play games with your head. You’ve increased your caloric intake by almost 350 calories. Even if you added 350 calories a day to a maintenance diet (which you are not), it would take you 10 days to gain one pound!!!

Another reason not to let the scale play tricks on you? You’ve increased carbohydrates, and glycogen (stored carbs) is stored in the muscles with water in a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio (water:glycogen).

When it comes to manipulating your body composition, yes you want to measure and monitor and adjust as you need to, but do it scientifically and analytically, based on data … based on TRENDS … meaning that you should be looking at your progress (or not!) over the course of 2 to 3 weeks.
[/quote]
The reason that I mentioned my weight staying put is because I’m actually expecting to gain a couple pounds back due to replenishing muscles glycogen via carbs. So, although I’m watching my weight, I’m actually pleasantly surprised that my weight has stayed put.

I was trying to figure out my new carb-full baseline weight that I should calculate my differences from. At this point, I think I’m aiming for 1 pound a week, after my body has stabilized from the added carbs, is that “goal” within reason?

[quote]Tampa-Terry wrote:
Have you figured out that I’m trying to persuade the engineering part of your brain, there, jthsiao? (grin)[/quote]

Yes, I appreciate your approach very much. :slight_smile: I don’t know what you do by trade, but I bet you’d be a great engineer! :slight_smile: