Journey Towards a Better Me

Because that E2 result is very unexpected, it would be a good idea to do a retest for confirmation.

Cholesterol is great. Concern was that it might be too low.

Don’t forget probiotics. Google ultimate flora, probably amazon

If you did clomid and T increased, that would prove the same point as hCG
Remember that clomid make some feel crappy and nolvadex does not.

See https://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/hpta_restart_for_trt_guys_with_application_to_gear_and_pct
for guidance.

fT4 seems consistently a bit low.
Iodine?

There is a simple occult blood test, a small poop sample.

I don’t know what else to do re liver function other than AST/ALT - lack of knowledge.

Well I got another lab taken to test the E2. This was ordered by a different doctor, and he uses Quest so this will be interesting to see if it comes back with a significantly different value. KSman apologies for forgetting this when you asked for me to bring old stuff to your attention, I had forgotten that back in the summer my GP tested for Total estrogen which was at 55, which is pretty low. So hopefully this second test on E2 will shed some light as to wether I actually have high or low E2.

Concerning this third doc that I just saw. I was trying to find info on adrenal fatigue and came across his website. I figured “what the heck, let’s see what he has to say.” He was very keen on the high E2 with low test. He kind of ignored the low estrogen test. His theory is that I’m aromatizing estrogen at a higher rate and/or something is off allowing E2 to pool in my body. A lot of the possibilities he listed were like what KSman suggested, Liver could be off and not processing E2, there could be something wrong with my gut flora. He wanted to do some kind of test that sees how my body methlenates? I think that was the term? He explained it but it didn’t make too much sense to me. Basically he was wanting to use this test to see if I was deficient in any particular nutrient. He had me try the Liquid Zinc Assay test, to which I tested low on zinc. He was very impressed that I took iodine with selenium, as apparently if I have hashimotos and take iodine the iodine will actually make it worse if I don’t also take selenium. So hat’s off to you KSman.

He’s very much into nuturapathic(?) stuff, and I am not sure how I feel about it. Kinda get the feeling he would push supplements on me, ya know? Anyway I figured I should let him order the test/E2 test, as my trt doc currently can’t seem to even see my lab results, let alone order new ones based on them.

Took my first .25mg of adex and 12.5 mg of clomid yesterday, 10 months to the day I found out I had low T. Waiting for the rage to kick in.

Finally got the lab results today from the draw I had over two weeks ago:

Total Testosterone: 195 for range [250-827]
Estradiol: 20 for range [< 39]

So we have one lab from 10/20 that has me having high E2, and two labs with me having low estrogen: this one and the lab in Feburary that showed I had low total estrogen of 51 for range [40-115].

[quote]KSman wrote:
If E2 was not high you would be needing TRT.
With high E2 we don’t know if something could be fixed.
[/quote]

So looks like it’s trt for me.

It’s been a little over two weeks since I started Clomid with AI. I have already noticed some muscle gains and fat loss, and it’s taking days to heal from scratches that used to take me weeks. No change in mental clarity or libido yet. I did notice a bit of light sensitivity on the first week, but that has subsided. Still, when I see my doc next I will try to get nolvadex instead. Will be getting labs in like a month I think.

My 75 yo dad just had an issue with an occular inclusion. He’s fine, but it makes me wonder if either I’m prone for eye issues, or if he would benefit from some trt.

So I’ve been thinking about how my vitamin D, Iron, and b12 levels are lowish, so I did some online research. According to Stomach acid-the why and the what - Stop The Thyroid Madness low stomach acid and decrease absorption of nutrients. I’m going to order some betaine HCI now, and while waiting for that to arrive I’ll try taking 1 tbsp of apple cider vinegar with a meal once a day.

When KSman asked me if I was having digestive issues I wasn’t sure what symptoms he was looking for. However, reading about low stomach acid makes me realize I do tend to belch more than most people during/after a meal, and now that I think about it I do feel some discomfort after a large meal. From what I can tell there really isn’t a downside to taking ACV or betaine HCI other than some heartburn if you end up taking too much. Hopefully I can get my doc to do the same labs over again for a second time, just to see if all this stuff is actually doing anything.

I still seem to be making gainz in the gym, am getting sore now after bench when I haven’t in ages. Conversely, my hammies are now only staying sore for a day as opposed to all the freakin’ time. I’m really enjoying how my body seems to be responding to clomid, but for now I haven’t really noticed any mental differences. Cannot wait to get the tear in my trap fixed so I can really see improvements with my OHP.

Mentally, I’m ready to make the switch to HCG mono, but I understand I need to give clomid months to really give it a chance.

It’s been about two weeks but Labcorp finally posted my labs online. This is what six weeks of 25mg EOD of Clomid looks like:

TT: 649 for range [348-1197]
Free T: 23.2 for range [8.7-25.1]
E2 Sensitive: 24.0 for range [8.0-35.0]

Although doc didn’t order LH or FSH the test results seem to show that everything is working well. Glad to see that my nuts are still able to produce test. However, while I’m seeing physical improvements (muscle gains, fat loss, strength gains, healing is tons faster), I’m not feeling any better. In fact, my libido has actually been lower since I’ve started.

Because of this (and some vision sides), I’m going to see how I respond to HCG monotherapy. Going to start trying to have a kid soon, so I’m wanting to try HCG mono for now.

…The other day I was thinking about how I’m hesitant to switch to injections because of the hassle. Then I realized I was sitting at the doctors office waiting for my allergy injection. That I get every week. That takes an hour out of my day. That I’ve been doing since 1990!!! Once I realized how inconvenient allergy injections are to self injections I was no longer weary of injections.

I should also report in that supplementing stomach acid seems to have drastically changed how I process food. I wouldn’t be surprised if I had too much bacteria growing in my stomach from the probiotics I’m taking. Someday perhaps I will be able to get my trt doc to test my iron, vit D, and B12 levels again, but if what I’ve read online is correct it takes a while for things to improve, so no rush there.

You considered Nolvadex instead of Clomid at one point.

Right you are KSman, and think I will try to make the switch to nolva before HCG. In about five weeks I’m going on a cruise so I think I’ll want to stick with the easy to travel with pills over injections. I know that Nolva has less sides, but is it usually more effective with the mental part of raising test? Guess we will find out.

All these hormone systems fascinate me, so I’m trying to learn about anything and everything I can. I came across this article that talks about how taking Progesterone, Pregnenolone, Dhea, And D-Aspartic Acid helped a man get his test levels up. I’ve been trying to find other discussions about these hormones and other than DHEA I’ve only found some talk in transgender circles.

I’ve also read that taking an AI isn’t good for your liver, so yeah I have no idea if this is just bro-science or there are actual studies. One more thing to consider when trying to figure out the best treatment.

I’m also looking into taking MK677 for like two months to help treat an injury and raise the effectiveness of an upcoming PRP injection treatment. From what I’ve read SERMs can lower GH and IGF-1, and for the PRP injections to have maximum effect I should have high test as well as growth factors, since the treatment utilizes my own body’s ability to heal. KSman have you heard anything about MK677? Would this be a bad idea to take a SERM with a SARM?

Apologies for this post being all over the place, lots of stuff going through my mind and it’s hard to write it all down coherently.

That is probably BS and wrong for you to be blindingly repeating.

Some bodybuilders use high[er] amounts of AI’s to get very low estrogen levels. Certainly something we avoid here. When E2 is very low, lipid profiles can go to hell. Those BB guys are also doing some orals that are very hard on the liver. So where is the clean data? Nothing there applies here.

Taking a SARM does not seem to be any different than using testosterone. What are you thinking that you would achieve?

Ok good to know, one less thing to worry about. I don’t consider asking about rumors/word on the street to be the same as blindly repeating said rumor/word on the street.

From what I understand, MK766 is a growth hormone secretagogue, so that wouldn’t shut down testosterone production would it? Perhaps I misused the term SARM? MK677 is a selective agonist of the ghrelin receptor, so I thought that fell under the SARM umbrella.

I am thinking the elevation of GH/IGF-1 would increase the effectiveness of my upcoming PRP treatment, which is why I would only want to take it for like a month (two weeks leading up to the treatment and two weeks after the treatment).

My concern is that many repeat the same things over and over again because they [thought] that they saw something somewhere. The problem is that someone else reading your post might think that what you wrote is a fact. So I try to avoid fact pollution. The steroid boards can be the worst. But the “steroid” forum here is better than most, but suffers from a flood of new guys with odd ideas and the veterans don’t have time to manage the new guys.

I understand, that makes perfect sense.

So I’ve been thinking about switching to either nolva or HCG mono, and I’ve decided to try HCG. Even if Nolva ends up being a suitable treatment, I would be left wondering if I could feel worlds better on HCG. I’ve talked to my doctor about this, and he agrees it’s worth a shot. The fact my doctor pretty much refused to switch to nolva citing that “they are the same thing” was also a factor. It’s a shame that even a well educated doc has basic things to learn.

Doc wants me off of the clomid/ai for a week and then begin the injections. The protocol he suggested was 500 IUs three times a week, but he said it could be as low as 250 IUs three times a week.

So I’m thinking of starting out at 250 ius EOD, like the sticky suggests, and then increase the dosage if it’s proved to be needed. I guess I’m fearful that 500 ius will cause my e2 to rise, as I am not starting out with an AI this time. …I’m not super committed to this plan of action, and may end up doing something more like 400 EOD.

So it’s been a little over a week since I’ve stopped taking Clomid. For the first time in months I’m now sore from working out. My legs are sore/tight and my lower back is also bothering me like it did before I started Clomid. I’ve also noticed some improvements in how I feel mentally, like in libido, so if this isn’t all in my head it seems like Clomid is a mixed bag for me.

…I may return to Clomid or Nolva someday, but for now I can’t wait for Kroger to get its shipment in of Pregnyl for me (should be tomorrow). Using Goodrx I could get 10,000 IUs of Pregnyl for like $63 at Kroger, so I elected to do that instead of pay empower $75 for the same thing (I’m a cheap man, I know). Now I’m suddenly wondering if there is any difference between brand HCG and compounded HCG. I mean I know HCG is HCG so the actual peptide will be the same but I’m talking about freshness, since the peptide does have a shelf life. I may end up trying empower after I go through this first vial, just to compare to see if there is any difference at all.

This past Monday I also had my test, e2, LH and FSH levels tested, should get the results in about a week I imagine. I’m definitely interested to see if my test levels dropped a week after stopping clomid, because it definitely feels like it right now.

So it’s been a week since I’ve ordered the Pregnyl from Kroger and it still hasn’t come in yet. That means it’s been 11 days since I last took clomid and this morning I had the worst symptom of low test come back: I woke up super early in a state of panic. I woke up today thinking about all the bills and expenses that are coming up (car repairs, a upcoming cruise, stuff like that), and even though we can afford to pay them I worry because we aren’t saving as much as I’d like to. I did this before clomid, and I didn’t do this while on clomid. I am suddenly wanting to start taking clomid again just because that symptom is just the worst experience for me. I think I will get back on clomid for this upcoming week, and then use the cruise as the time to let the clomid wash out of my system. I worry that trying to take can care for the HCG on the cruise will be a hassle, and I don’t really want to start taking HCG for like 4 days and then take 10 days off.

I’m just really surprised with how quickly all these symptoms are coming back. I didn’t even remember some of the symptoms (back pain, waking up early) I was experiencing until they started coming back. Perhaps it’s all mental, I recognize that. I am definitely curious to see where my levels were this past Monday. Hopefully Quest decides to send the results sooner rather than later.

So I got my labs back, and a week after stopping clomid my numbers were:

Total Test: 424 (250-1100)
Free Test: 105.5 (35-155)
E2: 20 (<=39)
LH: 2.4 (1.6-8.0)
FSH: 3.2 (1.5-9.3)

That’s over a 200 point drop from the 650 I last tested on while taking Clomid. This lab results seems to corroborate my own personal experiences the second week of being clomid free (aka, starting to get the ol’ low test symptoms back). Guess we can throw out the idea of an HPTA restart.

Last week I had had enough so I got back on Clomid while waiting for the HCG to show up. I was able to pick it up today (it took the Kroger pharmacy 11 days to get the Pregnyl), but because I’m going on a 10 day vacation starting two days from now I’m just going to wait until I get back to start the HCG.

…I think the dip in my libido while on Clomid/Adex stems from the adex lowering my E2 too much, so I wonder how I will respond to the HCG, and the possible rise in E2. I also noticed a nice change in body composition the second week off of Clomid, I looked leaner and harder. I attribute this to the rise in GH and IGF1 to normal levels (though I have no idea really). Once I started the Clomid I returned to a softer physique, but I’m also back to being way stronger than before I started taking it. For example, before my 1RM of overhead press always hovered around 130#, on a good day 135. Today I did 10 reps of 125, and it didn’t feel THAT hard.

I have also gotten a lot of complements lately within my sprinting group. People are asking me how much weight I’ve lost and how I look leaner. In fact I’ve gone up about ten pounds (from what I understand this is water weight and is typical when men start some form of trt)

Again, excited to see how I respond to HCG.

Two pins in on HCG, and I don’t seem to be responding to it as near as quickly as Clomid. There are so many factors with this I’m not going to jump to conclusions, but I wanted to write down my experience.

This week so far in the gym has sucked. Everything is much harder right now. I did 2 reps of 275 in the squat two weeks ago and this week I could only do 3 reps of 250. Two weeks ago I could OHP 125 ten times and today I could only get in 7 reps of 115. It sucks. I’m also pretty sore and have a headache, something I haven’t had in ages. Again, this is all just me bitching. I hope that by this time next week I’ll be feeling better.

Looking forward to getting my levels tested, whenever that happens (doc didn’t set a timeline). 20 days from now I will get my torn trap treated, and I’m really looking forward to that.

It’s been two weeks and just wanted to report in. At 400 iu E2D I seem to feel very… normal. I think I am feeling like what a normal (aka a person with regular test levels) should feel like. I am back to seeing gainz in the gym, but not like when I was on Clomid, for whatever reason.

Pinning myself has become fairly easy, surprised at how quickly I’ve taken to it. This could be it for me, as I am feeling pretty darn good right now. Not sure when but my doc will order labs and I’ll post them then I get them.

Alright well got my labs back from eight weeks of HCG monotherapy. I also got a repeat of all the thyroid/iron/other stuff tested I got tested in November last year to see if the supplements that I’m now taking are actually doing anything. …I think it’s very odd that clomid got me to 600s, yet I seem to be unresponsive to HCG. I am seeing my doc again in a week (the earliest he could see me), and I imagine I will start Test injections right away. Also not what to make of the sudden change of iron, as last time I had this tested ferritin it was marginal. Taking DHEA seems to have helped with those numbers. Probably need to take even more Vit D.

Total Test: 189 (300-1080) LOW
SHBG: 12 (16.5-55.9) LOW
Free Test: 5.6 (4.8-25.7)
FSH <.3 (1.3-11.4) LOW
LH <.1 (1.2-7.8) LOW
E2, Ultrasensitive 9.1 (10-42) LOW
Prolactin: 6.8 (3-30)
DHEA Sulfate: 293 (103-446)
IGF-1 221 (77-250)

TSH: 1.1 (.5-4.7)
Free T3: 2.8 (2.3-4.2)
Free T4: 1.17 (.73-1.95)
Reverse T3: 23.8 (9-27)

Ferritin: 42
Iron, Serum: 94 (35-158)
Unsaturated IBC 375 (155-300) HIGH
Calculated total IBC 469 (250-450) HIGH
Vitamin D3 36 (30-100)
Vitamin b12 429 (250-1100)
Hermatocrit 44.4 (37-49)
Folate, RBC 743 (280-800)

Glucose: 90 (65-100)
Bun 17 (8-25)
Creatinine .9 (.8-1.4)
eGFR Non-African Amer. 109 (>60)
Calculated Bun/Creat ratio: 19 (6-28)
Sodium: 138 (133-146)
Potassium: 4.5 (3.5-5.3)
Chloride 101 (97-110)
Carbon Dioxide 28 (18-30)
Calcium 10.3 (8.5-10.5)
Protein 7.6 (6-8.4)
Albumin 4.9 (2.9-50)
Calculated Globulin 2.7 (2.0-3.8)
A/G ratio 1.8 (.9-2.5)
Bilirubin total .4 (.1-1.3)
Alkaline Phosphatase 81 (30-132)
SGOT (AST) 28 (5-35)
SGPT (ALT) 30 (7-56)

KSman any thoughts are always greatly appreciated.

Where are body temperatures now.
rT3 may be having some negative effects. See my early post re tT3 and stress.
fT3 and fT3 are suboptimal, even if rT3 was more favorable.

Take 6,000iu Vit-D3

How are your testes now? Normal or small? With low LH, the only thing preserving size was the hCG. So may still want it with T+AI+hCG

Go for TRT with speed and get your life back. Review protocol for injections.

I have no idea what is going on with iron. Nothing else suggests a GI bleed. Have you done an occult blood test?

From what I can tell from that link you posted, my iron lab results really don’t fit into anything listed there. Strange. I haven’t been able to get an occult test before now, but I’m sure with this result I can get the dr to order one. [quote=“KSman, post:59, topic:207176”]
How are your testes now? Normal or small?
[/quote]

They are normal, definitely haven’t felt any shrinkage.

I’m already taking 4ki us one day, and 8k ius the other (pills are 4k a piece) I’ll just start taking 8k daily and see what happens

Past afternoon were 98.6, this morning was a low 95.8. Will keep recording to see if this is consistent. I’ve been taking kelp pills daily for about 7 months now. I don’t know if this is relevant but I’m three weeks removed from getting a medical procedure done to fix a 40% thickness tear in my trap. Perhaps the stress from the injury and the procedure have affected my levels??

KSman have you ever come across a case where someone responds decently to clomid but horribly to HCG? Just curious because I find this very puzzling.