Journey Towards a Better Me

You considered Nolvadex instead of Clomid at one point.

Right you are KSman, and think I will try to make the switch to nolva before HCG. In about five weeks I’m going on a cruise so I think I’ll want to stick with the easy to travel with pills over injections. I know that Nolva has less sides, but is it usually more effective with the mental part of raising test? Guess we will find out.

All these hormone systems fascinate me, so I’m trying to learn about anything and everything I can. I came across this article that talks about how taking Progesterone, Pregnenolone, Dhea, And D-Aspartic Acid helped a man get his test levels up. I’ve been trying to find other discussions about these hormones and other than DHEA I’ve only found some talk in transgender circles.

I’ve also read that taking an AI isn’t good for your liver, so yeah I have no idea if this is just bro-science or there are actual studies. One more thing to consider when trying to figure out the best treatment.

I’m also looking into taking MK677 for like two months to help treat an injury and raise the effectiveness of an upcoming PRP injection treatment. From what I’ve read SERMs can lower GH and IGF-1, and for the PRP injections to have maximum effect I should have high test as well as growth factors, since the treatment utilizes my own body’s ability to heal. KSman have you heard anything about MK677? Would this be a bad idea to take a SERM with a SARM?

Apologies for this post being all over the place, lots of stuff going through my mind and it’s hard to write it all down coherently.

That is probably BS and wrong for you to be blindingly repeating.

Some bodybuilders use high[er] amounts of AI’s to get very low estrogen levels. Certainly something we avoid here. When E2 is very low, lipid profiles can go to hell. Those BB guys are also doing some orals that are very hard on the liver. So where is the clean data? Nothing there applies here.

Taking a SARM does not seem to be any different than using testosterone. What are you thinking that you would achieve?

Ok good to know, one less thing to worry about. I don’t consider asking about rumors/word on the street to be the same as blindly repeating said rumor/word on the street.

From what I understand, MK766 is a growth hormone secretagogue, so that wouldn’t shut down testosterone production would it? Perhaps I misused the term SARM? MK677 is a selective agonist of the ghrelin receptor, so I thought that fell under the SARM umbrella.

I am thinking the elevation of GH/IGF-1 would increase the effectiveness of my upcoming PRP treatment, which is why I would only want to take it for like a month (two weeks leading up to the treatment and two weeks after the treatment).

My concern is that many repeat the same things over and over again because they [thought] that they saw something somewhere. The problem is that someone else reading your post might think that what you wrote is a fact. So I try to avoid fact pollution. The steroid boards can be the worst. But the “steroid” forum here is better than most, but suffers from a flood of new guys with odd ideas and the veterans don’t have time to manage the new guys.

I understand, that makes perfect sense.

So I’ve been thinking about switching to either nolva or HCG mono, and I’ve decided to try HCG. Even if Nolva ends up being a suitable treatment, I would be left wondering if I could feel worlds better on HCG. I’ve talked to my doctor about this, and he agrees it’s worth a shot. The fact my doctor pretty much refused to switch to nolva citing that “they are the same thing” was also a factor. It’s a shame that even a well educated doc has basic things to learn.

Doc wants me off of the clomid/ai for a week and then begin the injections. The protocol he suggested was 500 IUs three times a week, but he said it could be as low as 250 IUs three times a week.

So I’m thinking of starting out at 250 ius EOD, like the sticky suggests, and then increase the dosage if it’s proved to be needed. I guess I’m fearful that 500 ius will cause my e2 to rise, as I am not starting out with an AI this time. …I’m not super committed to this plan of action, and may end up doing something more like 400 EOD.

So it’s been a little over a week since I’ve stopped taking Clomid. For the first time in months I’m now sore from working out. My legs are sore/tight and my lower back is also bothering me like it did before I started Clomid. I’ve also noticed some improvements in how I feel mentally, like in libido, so if this isn’t all in my head it seems like Clomid is a mixed bag for me.

…I may return to Clomid or Nolva someday, but for now I can’t wait for Kroger to get its shipment in of Pregnyl for me (should be tomorrow). Using Goodrx I could get 10,000 IUs of Pregnyl for like $63 at Kroger, so I elected to do that instead of pay empower $75 for the same thing (I’m a cheap man, I know). Now I’m suddenly wondering if there is any difference between brand HCG and compounded HCG. I mean I know HCG is HCG so the actual peptide will be the same but I’m talking about freshness, since the peptide does have a shelf life. I may end up trying empower after I go through this first vial, just to compare to see if there is any difference at all.

This past Monday I also had my test, e2, LH and FSH levels tested, should get the results in about a week I imagine. I’m definitely interested to see if my test levels dropped a week after stopping clomid, because it definitely feels like it right now.

So it’s been a week since I’ve ordered the Pregnyl from Kroger and it still hasn’t come in yet. That means it’s been 11 days since I last took clomid and this morning I had the worst symptom of low test come back: I woke up super early in a state of panic. I woke up today thinking about all the bills and expenses that are coming up (car repairs, a upcoming cruise, stuff like that), and even though we can afford to pay them I worry because we aren’t saving as much as I’d like to. I did this before clomid, and I didn’t do this while on clomid. I am suddenly wanting to start taking clomid again just because that symptom is just the worst experience for me. I think I will get back on clomid for this upcoming week, and then use the cruise as the time to let the clomid wash out of my system. I worry that trying to take can care for the HCG on the cruise will be a hassle, and I don’t really want to start taking HCG for like 4 days and then take 10 days off.

I’m just really surprised with how quickly all these symptoms are coming back. I didn’t even remember some of the symptoms (back pain, waking up early) I was experiencing until they started coming back. Perhaps it’s all mental, I recognize that. I am definitely curious to see where my levels were this past Monday. Hopefully Quest decides to send the results sooner rather than later.

So I got my labs back, and a week after stopping clomid my numbers were:

Total Test: 424 (250-1100)
Free Test: 105.5 (35-155)
E2: 20 (<=39)
LH: 2.4 (1.6-8.0)
FSH: 3.2 (1.5-9.3)

That’s over a 200 point drop from the 650 I last tested on while taking Clomid. This lab results seems to corroborate my own personal experiences the second week of being clomid free (aka, starting to get the ol’ low test symptoms back). Guess we can throw out the idea of an HPTA restart.

Last week I had had enough so I got back on Clomid while waiting for the HCG to show up. I was able to pick it up today (it took the Kroger pharmacy 11 days to get the Pregnyl), but because I’m going on a 10 day vacation starting two days from now I’m just going to wait until I get back to start the HCG.

…I think the dip in my libido while on Clomid/Adex stems from the adex lowering my E2 too much, so I wonder how I will respond to the HCG, and the possible rise in E2. I also noticed a nice change in body composition the second week off of Clomid, I looked leaner and harder. I attribute this to the rise in GH and IGF1 to normal levels (though I have no idea really). Once I started the Clomid I returned to a softer physique, but I’m also back to being way stronger than before I started taking it. For example, before my 1RM of overhead press always hovered around 130#, on a good day 135. Today I did 10 reps of 125, and it didn’t feel THAT hard.

I have also gotten a lot of complements lately within my sprinting group. People are asking me how much weight I’ve lost and how I look leaner. In fact I’ve gone up about ten pounds (from what I understand this is water weight and is typical when men start some form of trt)

Again, excited to see how I respond to HCG.

Two pins in on HCG, and I don’t seem to be responding to it as near as quickly as Clomid. There are so many factors with this I’m not going to jump to conclusions, but I wanted to write down my experience.

This week so far in the gym has sucked. Everything is much harder right now. I did 2 reps of 275 in the squat two weeks ago and this week I could only do 3 reps of 250. Two weeks ago I could OHP 125 ten times and today I could only get in 7 reps of 115. It sucks. I’m also pretty sore and have a headache, something I haven’t had in ages. Again, this is all just me bitching. I hope that by this time next week I’ll be feeling better.

Looking forward to getting my levels tested, whenever that happens (doc didn’t set a timeline). 20 days from now I will get my torn trap treated, and I’m really looking forward to that.

It’s been two weeks and just wanted to report in. At 400 iu E2D I seem to feel very… normal. I think I am feeling like what a normal (aka a person with regular test levels) should feel like. I am back to seeing gainz in the gym, but not like when I was on Clomid, for whatever reason.

Pinning myself has become fairly easy, surprised at how quickly I’ve taken to it. This could be it for me, as I am feeling pretty darn good right now. Not sure when but my doc will order labs and I’ll post them then I get them.

Alright well got my labs back from eight weeks of HCG monotherapy. I also got a repeat of all the thyroid/iron/other stuff tested I got tested in November last year to see if the supplements that I’m now taking are actually doing anything. …I think it’s very odd that clomid got me to 600s, yet I seem to be unresponsive to HCG. I am seeing my doc again in a week (the earliest he could see me), and I imagine I will start Test injections right away. Also not what to make of the sudden change of iron, as last time I had this tested ferritin it was marginal. Taking DHEA seems to have helped with those numbers. Probably need to take even more Vit D.

Total Test: 189 (300-1080) LOW
SHBG: 12 (16.5-55.9) LOW
Free Test: 5.6 (4.8-25.7)
FSH <.3 (1.3-11.4) LOW
LH <.1 (1.2-7.8) LOW
E2, Ultrasensitive 9.1 (10-42) LOW
Prolactin: 6.8 (3-30)
DHEA Sulfate: 293 (103-446)
IGF-1 221 (77-250)

TSH: 1.1 (.5-4.7)
Free T3: 2.8 (2.3-4.2)
Free T4: 1.17 (.73-1.95)
Reverse T3: 23.8 (9-27)

Ferritin: 42
Iron, Serum: 94 (35-158)
Unsaturated IBC 375 (155-300) HIGH
Calculated total IBC 469 (250-450) HIGH
Vitamin D3 36 (30-100)
Vitamin b12 429 (250-1100)
Hermatocrit 44.4 (37-49)
Folate, RBC 743 (280-800)

Glucose: 90 (65-100)
Bun 17 (8-25)
Creatinine .9 (.8-1.4)
eGFR Non-African Amer. 109 (>60)
Calculated Bun/Creat ratio: 19 (6-28)
Sodium: 138 (133-146)
Potassium: 4.5 (3.5-5.3)
Chloride 101 (97-110)
Carbon Dioxide 28 (18-30)
Calcium 10.3 (8.5-10.5)
Protein 7.6 (6-8.4)
Albumin 4.9 (2.9-50)
Calculated Globulin 2.7 (2.0-3.8)
A/G ratio 1.8 (.9-2.5)
Bilirubin total .4 (.1-1.3)
Alkaline Phosphatase 81 (30-132)
SGOT (AST) 28 (5-35)
SGPT (ALT) 30 (7-56)

KSman any thoughts are always greatly appreciated.

Where are body temperatures now.
rT3 may be having some negative effects. See my early post re tT3 and stress.
fT3 and fT3 are suboptimal, even if rT3 was more favorable.

Take 6,000iu Vit-D3

How are your testes now? Normal or small? With low LH, the only thing preserving size was the hCG. So may still want it with T+AI+hCG

Go for TRT with speed and get your life back. Review protocol for injections.

I have no idea what is going on with iron. Nothing else suggests a GI bleed. Have you done an occult blood test?

From what I can tell from that link you posted, my iron lab results really don’t fit into anything listed there. Strange. I haven’t been able to get an occult test before now, but I’m sure with this result I can get the dr to order one. [quote=“KSman, post:59, topic:207176”]
How are your testes now? Normal or small?
[/quote]

They are normal, definitely haven’t felt any shrinkage.

I’m already taking 4ki us one day, and 8k ius the other (pills are 4k a piece) I’ll just start taking 8k daily and see what happens

Past afternoon were 98.6, this morning was a low 95.8. Will keep recording to see if this is consistent. I’ve been taking kelp pills daily for about 7 months now. I don’t know if this is relevant but I’m three weeks removed from getting a medical procedure done to fix a 40% thickness tear in my trap. Perhaps the stress from the injury and the procedure have affected my levels??

KSman have you ever come across a case where someone responds decently to clomid but horribly to HCG? Just curious because I find this very puzzling.

That is very strange as the LH active lobe of hCG is identical to the LH active lobe of LH.

That surgery will slow you down. Recovery will take time, so be careful as you heal.

TRT would help with recovery VS a catabolic state.

Have you ever used Rx corticosteroids?

These can be catabolic and lead to torn tissues.

Yeah I’m a little antsy with the sudden inactivity, but I know better than to push things, this is a marathon not a sprint.

Regarding Coricosteroids, I received a 1.5 ml of betamethasone late last month to treat a case of bronchitis. I also received a similar injection about three or four years ago, also for bronchitis. That injection years ago probably caused a lot of damage to my hip, but I don’t think it did anything bad for my trap. From what the the good doctor has deduced, years ago when I received some blunt trauma to my shoulder/collarbone area the force caused the edge of the scapula to scrape/shred the trap from the inside, as the damage to the muscle is on the internal side (forget the anatomical term here). Doc says that he sees this kind of trauma a lot.

I’m really looking forward to seeing how quickly I heal on Test injections, as I noticed a drastic improvement in wound healing when I was on Clomid. I also have a script for HGH to help with the healing, but I’m unsure if doing 1iu ED for only a month would actually do anything, and I don’t want to waste $300. (doc was unsure but thought it might be helpful)

HGH cost/benefit: If your IGF-1 was 200-250, 1iu may simply replace current production and leave IGF-1 mostly the same. If IGF-1 is low, then there is good cost/benefit.

Thanks man, I think you saved me $300, so I really appreciate it. I could get a script for greater quantity of HGH and do 2ius a day, but I don’t feel like spending $600 on it when I will probably see a lot of improvement from the very cheap testosterone.

Alright well yesterday was the first day of testosterone injections. We are starting out a little on the high side and will work our way down if need be. The current protocol is:

100mg of Test E3.5D
250cc HCG EoD

Given that today was the first day, I was injected with 200mg of Test, with all the following being the 100mg dose.

Not really thrilled about pinning with larger needles (they’re only .5" but still bigger than the slin pins), but I’m still doing SC so I won’t have to worry about scar tissue and I believe there is at least one study that shows SC has steadier absorption rates.

Pushing the plunger on the oil-based test is much more difficult than the water based HCG. I have successfully gotten the insurance to cover the test, but I’m not sure if that will actually be cheaper than GoodRx. We will see tomorrow when I stop by the pharmacy.

I will get labs done in two months, unless I start exhibiting some kind of symptom of something going wrong. I’m excited to see what it will feel like to have 600+ total test. Dr said things should start taking effect in about two weeks.

Had bloods drawn today. If you pointed a gun to my head an made me predict what the results will be I’d say I will have lower-than-expected test and higher e2. The test prediction is based on the fact that I’m a lot sorer now than I was when I was on clomid, and on clomid I was seeing TT of about 650. The e2 guess is based on that it’s harder to put my wedding band on (sign of water retention), nipples are a bit puffy, lethargy, and I’m a bit more emotional than I was before the test injections.

If this is this case, and I know I’m jumping the gun here but who doesn’t like a good prediction, I would guess it’s because my SHBG has always been near the bottom of the range. From what I understand, people with low SHBG tend to metabolize test faster, resulting in more aromatizing and less test in the bloodstream. I’ve also read that people with hypothyroid tend to have lower SHBG. This, in combination with the lower stomach acid, paints an interesting picture that I’m not sure how to read. Of course, I could be completely wrong and have results of low e2 and test in the 800s, we will see.

Doc said results should come in tomorrow, so we will see. I’m excited to see what the results actually are.

Not sure about the T levels, but it sure sounds like E2 is high. I’d like to put $10 on E2 being above 35.