T Nation

Jones vs Cormier

I read this article on MMAFighting where Cain Velasquez says his training comrade Daniel Cormier could win versus Jones if he dropped to light heavyweight. I agree that Cormier would be the guy to get the jone done against Jones.

I know many folks can instantaneously come up with numerous reasons why Jones would annihilate Cormier. Jones’ numerous title defenses against various former champions definitely makes him seem unbeatable. Despite his reach disadvantage, I see Cormier easily taking Jones to the ground and dishing out effective ground and pound. Also, I can see Cormier getting tagged a bit but being able to connect with strikes of his own once he closes the distance. Jones hasn’t displayed the supernatural ability to seemingly paralyze his opponents like Anderson Silva with his strikes (i.e. landing consistent elbows on Rashad Evans but still winning via decision), and I think though Jones may get in some good hits, Cormier would respond with devastating strikes of his own.

If Jones has any trouble with Sonnon come the next TUF finale, I think a great case could be made for Cormier beating Jones. What do you folks think?

I think Cormier lacks the reach and speed to do much to Jones. The fight would be more competitive at HW. I think Jones stand up is more diverse and better than Cormier’s. The only way I see anyone taking Jones down is if they have a good power double and if they can set up the take down with strikes. Lastly I think Jones will murder Sonnen, literally it might happen.

Honestly think Cormier might give Jones serious trouble.

I definitely dont think Cormier would be a walk in the park for Jones, but i feel like Cormier just doesnt have the size or speed to be really effective in the standup, and Jones uses his length so well to keep guys at bay.

I also think a lot of people have this idea that if some good wrestler comes in and can figure out the key to dealing with Jones length, that they can take him down and keep him there. I truly believe that Jones TDD is better than most people realize though, we just rarely see it in action because no one ever gets the chance to try.

It would be interesting to see Jones on his back though. I dont think that moment will come any time soon but i have a feeling that hes got some good tricks up his sleeve for when people are in his guard.

[quote]atfkao wrote:
I read this article on MMAFighting where Cain Velasquez says his training comrade Daniel Cormier could win versus Jones if he dropped to light heavyweight. I agree that Cormier would be the guy to get the jone done against Jones.
[/quote]

Of course Cain is going to say that, he’s trying to get his training partner a title bid, doesn’t mean that it would actually pan out that way.

Cormier is just not explosive enough or dynamic enough to close the gap against Jones. Rashad couldn’t do it (and he’s way faster and a more dynamic striker than Cormier), Belfort couldn’t do it, Machida did it, but Cormier is no Machida on the feet. And even if he can get past Jone’s reach I’m not so sure that he could take him down. Jones is a beast in the clinch and so far nobody has been able to put him on his back, I don’t think Cormier is the guy to do it.

Jones would likely land side kicks to Cormier’s knees (which are very tough to catch and wear down an opponent’s legs very quickly, just as Rampage, Rashad, or Vitor) and long range jabs to Cormier’s face. I just don’t see Cormier having an answer to that puzzle.

That could be, but let’s see if Sonnen can actually give Jones any trouble (my guess is that he won’t).

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]atfkao wrote:
I read this article on MMAFighting where Cain Velasquez says his training comrade Daniel Cormier could win versus Jones if he dropped to light heavyweight. I agree that Cormier would be the guy to get the jone done against Jones.
[/quote]

Of course Cain is going to say that, he’s trying to get his training partner a title bid, doesn’t mean that it would actually pan out that way.

Cormier is just not explosive enough or dynamic enough to close the gap against Jones. Rashad couldn’t do it (and he’s way faster and a more dynamic striker than Cormier), Belfort couldn’t do it, Machida did it, but Cormier is no Machida on the feet. And even if he can get past Jone’s reach I’m not so sure that he could take him down. Jones is a beast in the clinch and so far nobody has been able to put him on his back, I don’t think Cormier is the guy to do it.

Jones would likely land side kicks to Cormier’s knees (which are very tough to catch and wear down an opponent’s legs very quickly, just as Rampage, Rashad, or Vitor) and long range jabs to Cormier’s face. I just don’t see Cormier having an answer to that puzzle.

That could be, but let’s see if Sonnen can actually give Jones any trouble (my guess is that he won’t).[/quote]

I agree that the Sonnen fight will reveal much about how cormier would do with Jones. Bottom line is if Sonnen cant do anything with his wrestling against Jones, it doesnt bode well for Cormier. Cormier may be more decorated when it comes to wrestling than Sonnen, but Sonnen has to be top 5 in all of MMA for people who have adapted their wrestling well into mixed martial arts.

And just for the record, i think Sonnen gets embarrassed.

Sento I have to disagree about Rashad being a dynamic striker

I think he thinks he’s a much better striker than he actually is. He’s improved dramatically since his bout with Lidell, but he’s not really as great a boxer as some in the UFC like to make out.

I think it’s easy to defend Jones’ continuation of his championship because we’ve seen him fight more big-name fighters in the UFC. Many people still put UFC fight experience on a higher tier than other leagues, so naturally, when a fighter has spent his career not fighting in the UFC, it’s easy to discredit him. As Ben Henderson has proven, you can walk into the UFC later into your career and become a champion.

Another example - even though Nick Daiz fought a little in the UFC years back before he made his home in Strikeforce, his return to the UFC quickly put him back into the title contention picture. Who would have thought that he would beat up BJ Penn as badly as he did? (I’ll add BJ was thought to be one of the best boxers in MMA).

I don’t know if being a ‘dynamic striker’ is really necesary to beat Jones. I think Fedor was a good example of this idea. Fedor’s striking wasn’t about the volume or variation of strikes. He waited for his openings and threw everything he had into them. He could capitalize on a split second opportunity and use it to do major damage.

I don’t see Jones submitting Cormier (and he’s won a solid percentage of his last several fights via submission). If Jones win, I think it would be by decision, and he’d be badly hurt.

[quote]Aussie Davo wrote:
Sento I have to disagree about Rashad being a dynamic striker

I think he thinks he’s a much better striker than he actually is. He’s improved dramatically since his bout with Lidell, but he’s not really as great a boxer as some in the UFC like to make out. [/quote]

Well, to be clear I wasn’t suggesting that Rashad was a great boxer (though MMA boxing/striking is different than pure boxing/striking). What I meant by him being a dynamic striker is that he is capable of explosively closing the gap, and he is pretty good at using his speed and athleticism to set up his wrestling. Cormier is much slower and not great at explosively closing the gap, he more do plods forwards and throws big heavy handed punches (much like Hendo). That is going to result in Jones being able to keep him at a distance fairly easily IMO.

[quote]atfkao wrote:
I think it’s easy to defend Jones’ continuation of his championship because we’ve seen him fight more big-name fighters in the UFC. Many people still put UFC fight experience on a higher tier than other leagues, so naturally, when a fighter has spent his career not fighting in the UFC, it’s easy to discredit him. As Ben Henderson has proven, you can walk into the UFC later into your career and become a champion.

Another example - even though Nick Daiz fought a little in the UFC years back before he made his home in Strikeforce, his return to the UFC quickly put him back into the title contention picture. Who would have thought that he would beat up BJ Penn as badly as he did? (I’ll add BJ was thought to be one of the best boxers in MMA).

I don’t know if being a ‘dynamic striker’ is really necesary to beat Jones. I think Fedor was a good example of this idea. Fedor’s striking wasn’t about the volume or variation of strikes. He waited for his openings and threw everything he had into them. He could capitalize on a split second opportunity and use it to do major damage.

I don’t see Jones submitting Cormier (and he’s won a solid percentage of his last several fights via submission). If Jones win, I think it would be by decision, and he’d be badly hurt. [/quote]

Fedor was also very fast and explosive in his prime though, that speed advantage allowed him to beat some larger slower opponents (Rogers being the most recent example). Cormier is not a fast or explosive fighter. He is strong and his wrestling is very good, but he’s gotta get close enough to Jones to make those advantages useful, I don’t see him doing that.

I do agree with you though that he may end up winning via a decision as I’m not sure he possesses the power or accuracy to put Cormier down with strikes and although his submission game has been continuously improving, I’m not sure he’d be able to control Cormier on the ground like he has done to his previous opponents. But I don’t see him taking much damage in doing so or it really resembling anything like a competitive fight.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]atfkao wrote:
I think it’s easy to defend Jones’ continuation of his championship because we’ve seen him fight more big-name fighters in the UFC. Many people still put UFC fight experience on a higher tier than other leagues, so naturally, when a fighter has spent his career not fighting in the UFC, it’s easy to discredit him. As Ben Henderson has proven, you can walk into the UFC later into your career and become a champion.

Another example - even though Nick Daiz fought a little in the UFC years back before he made his home in Strikeforce, his return to the UFC quickly put him back into the title contention picture. Who would have thought that he would beat up BJ Penn as badly as he did? (I’ll add BJ was thought to be one of the best boxers in MMA).

I don’t know if being a ‘dynamic striker’ is really necesary to beat Jones. I think Fedor was a good example of this idea. Fedor’s striking wasn’t about the volume or variation of strikes. He waited for his openings and threw everything he had into them. He could capitalize on a split second opportunity and use it to do major damage.

I don’t see Jones submitting Cormier (and he’s won a solid percentage of his last several fights via submission). If Jones win, I think it would be by decision, and he’d be badly hurt. [/quote]

Fedor was also very fast and explosive in his prime though, that speed advantage allowed him to beat some larger slower opponents (Rogers being the most recent example). Cormier is not a fast or explosive fighter. He is strong and his wrestling is very good, but he’s gotta get close enough to Jones to make those advantages useful, I don’t see him doing that.

I do agree with you though that he may end up winning via a decision as I’m not sure he possesses the power or accuracy to put Cormier down with strikes and although his submission game has been continuously improving, I’m not sure he’d be able to control Cormier on the ground like he has done to his previous opponents. But I don’t see him taking much damage in doing so or it really resembling anything like a competitive fight.[/quote]

I dont think jones can hurt Cormier on the feet, but i think he will hurt him on the ground.

Cormier is a great wrestler, and a strong guy, but the fact of the matter is he will not be so strong at LHW, and Jones has absolutely manhandled other great wrestlers (Bader, Vlad, Hammill)

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]atfkao wrote:
I think it’s easy to defend Jones’ continuation of his championship because we’ve seen him fight more big-name fighters in the UFC. Many people still put UFC fight experience on a higher tier than other leagues, so naturally, when a fighter has spent his career not fighting in the UFC, it’s easy to discredit him. As Ben Henderson has proven, you can walk into the UFC later into your career and become a champion.

Another example - even though Nick Daiz fought a little in the UFC years back before he made his home in Strikeforce, his return to the UFC quickly put him back into the title contention picture. Who would have thought that he would beat up BJ Penn as badly as he did? (I’ll add BJ was thought to be one of the best boxers in MMA).

I don’t know if being a ‘dynamic striker’ is really necesary to beat Jones. I think Fedor was a good example of this idea. Fedor’s striking wasn’t about the volume or variation of strikes. He waited for his openings and threw everything he had into them. He could capitalize on a split second opportunity and use it to do major damage.

I don’t see Jones submitting Cormier (and he’s won a solid percentage of his last several fights via submission). If Jones win, I think it would be by decision, and he’d be badly hurt. [/quote]

Fedor was also very fast and explosive in his prime though, that speed advantage allowed him to beat some larger slower opponents (Rogers being the most recent example). Cormier is not a fast or explosive fighter. He is strong and his wrestling is very good, but he’s gotta get close enough to Jones to make those advantages useful, I don’t see him doing that.

I do agree with you though that he may end up winning via a decision as I’m not sure he possesses the power or accuracy to put Cormier down with strikes and although his submission game has been continuously improving, I’m not sure he’d be able to control Cormier on the ground like he has done to his previous opponents. But I don’t see him taking much damage in doing so or it really resembling anything like a competitive fight.[/quote]

I dont think jones can hurt Cormier on the feet, but i think he will hurt him on the ground.

Cormier is a great wrestler, and a strong guy, but the fact of the matter is he will not be so strong at LHW, and Jones has absolutely manhandled other great wrestlers (Bader, Vlad, Hammill)[/quote]
Cormier was the USA wrestling captain, I doubt he could take Cormier down. Standup wise he would get tagged a lot because he is slow and doesn’t have the reach to touch Jones.

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]atfkao wrote:
I think it’s easy to defend Jones’ continuation of his championship because we’ve seen him fight more big-name fighters in the UFC. Many people still put UFC fight experience on a higher tier than other leagues, so naturally, when a fighter has spent his career not fighting in the UFC, it’s easy to discredit him. As Ben Henderson has proven, you can walk into the UFC later into your career and become a champion.

Another example - even though Nick Daiz fought a little in the UFC years back before he made his home in Strikeforce, his return to the UFC quickly put him back into the title contention picture. Who would have thought that he would beat up BJ Penn as badly as he did? (I’ll add BJ was thought to be one of the best boxers in MMA).

I don’t know if being a ‘dynamic striker’ is really necesary to beat Jones. I think Fedor was a good example of this idea. Fedor’s striking wasn’t about the volume or variation of strikes. He waited for his openings and threw everything he had into them. He could capitalize on a split second opportunity and use it to do major damage.

I don’t see Jones submitting Cormier (and he’s won a solid percentage of his last several fights via submission). If Jones win, I think it would be by decision, and he’d be badly hurt. [/quote]

Fedor was also very fast and explosive in his prime though, that speed advantage allowed him to beat some larger slower opponents (Rogers being the most recent example). Cormier is not a fast or explosive fighter. He is strong and his wrestling is very good, but he’s gotta get close enough to Jones to make those advantages useful, I don’t see him doing that.

I do agree with you though that he may end up winning via a decision as I’m not sure he possesses the power or accuracy to put Cormier down with strikes and although his submission game has been continuously improving, I’m not sure he’d be able to control Cormier on the ground like he has done to his previous opponents. But I don’t see him taking much damage in doing so or it really resembling anything like a competitive fight.[/quote]

I dont think jones can hurt Cormier on the feet, but i think he will hurt him on the ground.

Cormier is a great wrestler, and a strong guy, but the fact of the matter is he will not be so strong at LHW, and Jones has absolutely manhandled other great wrestlers (Bader, Vlad, Hammill)[/quote]
Cormier was the USA wrestling captain, I doubt he could take Cormier down. Standup wise he would get tagged a lot because he is slow and doesn’t have the reach to touch Jones.[/quote]

In a wrestling match I agree, but MMA wrestling is different than regular wrestling. It’s a lot different stopping a takedown when you can focus solely on grappling and assume a stance that is designed specifically for that purpose than when your opponent it punching you in the face, kicking you in the knees and doesn’t have to grapple with you at all. Jones is a better MMA wrestler than Cormier IMO (based on his success with it against opponents as well as his set ups and transitions) while Cormier is the better pure wrestler.

13.5 inch reach advantage people. That’s just ridiculous. And he knows how to use it. This wrestling talk is really only relevant if Jones wants it to be.

Doctor stoppage due to cuts.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]atfkao wrote:
I think it’s easy to defend Jones’ continuation of his championship because we’ve seen him fight more big-name fighters in the UFC. Many people still put UFC fight experience on a higher tier than other leagues, so naturally, when a fighter has spent his career not fighting in the UFC, it’s easy to discredit him. As Ben Henderson has proven, you can walk into the UFC later into your career and become a champion.

Another example - even though Nick Daiz fought a little in the UFC years back before he made his home in Strikeforce, his return to the UFC quickly put him back into the title contention picture. Who would have thought that he would beat up BJ Penn as badly as he did? (I’ll add BJ was thought to be one of the best boxers in MMA).

I don’t know if being a ‘dynamic striker’ is really necesary to beat Jones. I think Fedor was a good example of this idea. Fedor’s striking wasn’t about the volume or variation of strikes. He waited for his openings and threw everything he had into them. He could capitalize on a split second opportunity and use it to do major damage.

I don’t see Jones submitting Cormier (and he’s won a solid percentage of his last several fights via submission). If Jones win, I think it would be by decision, and he’d be badly hurt. [/quote]

Fedor was also very fast and explosive in his prime though, that speed advantage allowed him to beat some larger slower opponents (Rogers being the most recent example). Cormier is not a fast or explosive fighter. He is strong and his wrestling is very good, but he’s gotta get close enough to Jones to make those advantages useful, I don’t see him doing that.

I do agree with you though that he may end up winning via a decision as I’m not sure he possesses the power or accuracy to put Cormier down with strikes and although his submission game has been continuously improving, I’m not sure he’d be able to control Cormier on the ground like he has done to his previous opponents. But I don’t see him taking much damage in doing so or it really resembling anything like a competitive fight.[/quote]

I dont think jones can hurt Cormier on the feet, but i think he will hurt him on the ground.

Cormier is a great wrestler, and a strong guy, but the fact of the matter is he will not be so strong at LHW, and Jones has absolutely manhandled other great wrestlers (Bader, Vlad, Hammill)[/quote]
Cormier was the USA wrestling captain, I doubt he could take Cormier down. Standup wise he would get tagged a lot because he is slow and doesn’t have the reach to touch Jones.[/quote]

In a wrestling match I agree, but MMA wrestling is different than regular wrestling. It’s a lot different stopping a takedown when you can focus solely on grappling and assume a stance that is designed specifically for that purpose than when your opponent it punching you in the face, kicking you in the knees and doesn’t have to grapple with you at all. Jones is a better MMA wrestler than Cormier IMO (based on his success with it against opponents as well as his set ups and transitions) while Cormier is the better pure wrestler.

[/quote]
Jones only managed one takedown on Rashad and two on Rampage, I stand by my statement he would have an extremely hard time taking down someone who throws around HW’s and shrugs off their takedowns.

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]atfkao wrote:
I think it’s easy to defend Jones’ continuation of his championship because we’ve seen him fight more big-name fighters in the UFC. Many people still put UFC fight experience on a higher tier than other leagues, so naturally, when a fighter has spent his career not fighting in the UFC, it’s easy to discredit him. As Ben Henderson has proven, you can walk into the UFC later into your career and become a champion.

Another example - even though Nick Daiz fought a little in the UFC years back before he made his home in Strikeforce, his return to the UFC quickly put him back into the title contention picture. Who would have thought that he would beat up BJ Penn as badly as he did? (I’ll add BJ was thought to be one of the best boxers in MMA).

I don’t know if being a ‘dynamic striker’ is really necesary to beat Jones. I think Fedor was a good example of this idea. Fedor’s striking wasn’t about the volume or variation of strikes. He waited for his openings and threw everything he had into them. He could capitalize on a split second opportunity and use it to do major damage.

I don’t see Jones submitting Cormier (and he’s won a solid percentage of his last several fights via submission). If Jones win, I think it would be by decision, and he’d be badly hurt. [/quote]

Fedor was also very fast and explosive in his prime though, that speed advantage allowed him to beat some larger slower opponents (Rogers being the most recent example). Cormier is not a fast or explosive fighter. He is strong and his wrestling is very good, but he’s gotta get close enough to Jones to make those advantages useful, I don’t see him doing that.

I do agree with you though that he may end up winning via a decision as I’m not sure he possesses the power or accuracy to put Cormier down with strikes and although his submission game has been continuously improving, I’m not sure he’d be able to control Cormier on the ground like he has done to his previous opponents. But I don’t see him taking much damage in doing so or it really resembling anything like a competitive fight.[/quote]

I dont think jones can hurt Cormier on the feet, but i think he will hurt him on the ground.

Cormier is a great wrestler, and a strong guy, but the fact of the matter is he will not be so strong at LHW, and Jones has absolutely manhandled other great wrestlers (Bader, Vlad, Hammill)[/quote]
Cormier was the USA wrestling captain, I doubt he could take Cormier down. Standup wise he would get tagged a lot because he is slow and doesn’t have the reach to touch Jones.[/quote]

In a wrestling match I agree, but MMA wrestling is different than regular wrestling. It’s a lot different stopping a takedown when you can focus solely on grappling and assume a stance that is designed specifically for that purpose than when your opponent it punching you in the face, kicking you in the knees and doesn’t have to grapple with you at all. Jones is a better MMA wrestler than Cormier IMO (based on his success with it against opponents as well as his set ups and transitions) while Cormier is the better pure wrestler.

[/quote]
Jones only managed one takedown on Rashad and two on Rampage, I stand by my statement he would have an extremely hard time taking down someone who throws around HW’s and shrugs off their takedowns. [/quote]

Rashad has out wrestled Phil Davis, Tito, and Rampage; and Rampage has some of the best hips and takedown defense in all of MMA (and is one of the strongest fighters in MMA, especially on a pound for pound basis, as well). Rampage stuffed every single takedown attempted by Kevin Randleman (who has also fought at HW and thrown around some big name HW’s in his time). Rampage and Rashad are also again much better strikers than Cormier and again, it’s a lot harder to Sprawl when you are being punched in the face.

Cormier has never faced anyone with the athleticism, well roundedness, reach advantage, or speed of Jon Jones (quite frankly because there aren’t any HW’s that fall into that category). Cormier is just not skilled enough as a striker to avoid getting tagged over and over with longe range punches to the face and kicks to the knees. Just like what happened to Rampage, Rashad, and Belfort he will get picked apart, frustrated, and then when he is mentally off balance Jones can take him down if he wants to. And even if he can’t keep Cormier down, he can continue to keep the treat of the takedown alive, which only serves to keep Cormier mentally and physically off balance.

Not to mention that we are talking about Cormier cutting down to LHW, which he is not used to. Who knows how much of a strength advantage Cormier would still possess (if any), or how that would affect his gas tank.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]atfkao wrote:
I think it’s easy to defend Jones’ continuation of his championship because we’ve seen him fight more big-name fighters in the UFC. Many people still put UFC fight experience on a higher tier than other leagues, so naturally, when a fighter has spent his career not fighting in the UFC, it’s easy to discredit him. As Ben Henderson has proven, you can walk into the UFC later into your career and become a champion.

Another example - even though Nick Daiz fought a little in the UFC years back before he made his home in Strikeforce, his return to the UFC quickly put him back into the title contention picture. Who would have thought that he would beat up BJ Penn as badly as he did? (I’ll add BJ was thought to be one of the best boxers in MMA).

I don’t know if being a ‘dynamic striker’ is really necesary to beat Jones. I think Fedor was a good example of this idea. Fedor’s striking wasn’t about the volume or variation of strikes. He waited for his openings and threw everything he had into them. He could capitalize on a split second opportunity and use it to do major damage.

I don’t see Jones submitting Cormier (and he’s won a solid percentage of his last several fights via submission). If Jones win, I think it would be by decision, and he’d be badly hurt. [/quote]

Fedor was also very fast and explosive in his prime though, that speed advantage allowed him to beat some larger slower opponents (Rogers being the most recent example). Cormier is not a fast or explosive fighter. He is strong and his wrestling is very good, but he’s gotta get close enough to Jones to make those advantages useful, I don’t see him doing that.

I do agree with you though that he may end up winning via a decision as I’m not sure he possesses the power or accuracy to put Cormier down with strikes and although his submission game has been continuously improving, I’m not sure he’d be able to control Cormier on the ground like he has done to his previous opponents. But I don’t see him taking much damage in doing so or it really resembling anything like a competitive fight.[/quote]

I dont think jones can hurt Cormier on the feet, but i think he will hurt him on the ground.

Cormier is a great wrestler, and a strong guy, but the fact of the matter is he will not be so strong at LHW, and Jones has absolutely manhandled other great wrestlers (Bader, Vlad, Hammill)[/quote]
Cormier was the USA wrestling captain, I doubt he could take Cormier down. Standup wise he would get tagged a lot because he is slow and doesn’t have the reach to touch Jones.[/quote]

In a wrestling match I agree, but MMA wrestling is different than regular wrestling. It’s a lot different stopping a takedown when you can focus solely on grappling and assume a stance that is designed specifically for that purpose than when your opponent it punching you in the face, kicking you in the knees and doesn’t have to grapple with you at all. Jones is a better MMA wrestler than Cormier IMO (based on his success with it against opponents as well as his set ups and transitions) while Cormier is the better pure wrestler.

[/quote]
Jones only managed one takedown on Rashad and two on Rampage, I stand by my statement he would have an extremely hard time taking down someone who throws around HW’s and shrugs off their takedowns. [/quote]

Rashad has out wrestled Phil Davis, Tito, and Rampage; and Rampage has some of the best hips and takedown defense in all of MMA (and is one of the strongest fighters in MMA, especially on a pound for pound basis, as well). Rampage stuffed every single takedown attempted by Kevin Randleman (who has also fought at HW and thrown around some big name HW’s in his time).

Rampage and Rashad are also again much better strikers than Cormier and again, it’s a lot harder to Sprawl when you are being punched in the face.

Cormier has never faced anyone with the athleticism, well roundedness, reach advantage, or speed of Jon Jones (quite frankly because there aren’t any HW’s that fall into that category). Cormier is just not skilled enough as a striker to avoid getting tagged over and over with longe range punches to the face and kicks to the knees.

Just like what happened to Rampage, Rashad, and Belfort he will get picked apart, frustrated, and then when he is mentally off balance Jones can take him down if he wants to. And even if he can’t keep Cormier down, he can continue to keep the treat of the takedown alive, which only serves to keep Cormier mentally and physically off balance.

Not to mention that we are talking about Cormier cutting down to LHW, which he is not used to. Who knows how much of a strength advantage Cormier would still possess (if any), or how that would affect his gas tank.[/quote]
They’ll fight soon enough and I guarantee Jones will not take him down.

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]atfkao wrote:
I think it’s easy to defend Jones’ continuation of his championship because we’ve seen him fight more big-name fighters in the UFC. Many people still put UFC fight experience on a higher tier than other leagues, so naturally, when a fighter has spent his career not fighting in the UFC, it’s easy to discredit him. As Ben Henderson has proven, you can walk into the UFC later into your career and become a champion.

Another example - even though Nick Daiz fought a little in the UFC years back before he made his home in Strikeforce, his return to the UFC quickly put him back into the title contention picture. Who would have thought that he would beat up BJ Penn as badly as he did? (I’ll add BJ was thought to be one of the best boxers in MMA).

I don’t know if being a ‘dynamic striker’ is really necesary to beat Jones. I think Fedor was a good example of this idea. Fedor’s striking wasn’t about the volume or variation of strikes. He waited for his openings and threw everything he had into them. He could capitalize on a split second opportunity and use it to do major damage.

I don’t see Jones submitting Cormier (and he’s won a solid percentage of his last several fights via submission). If Jones win, I think it would be by decision, and he’d be badly hurt. [/quote]

Fedor was also very fast and explosive in his prime though, that speed advantage allowed him to beat some larger slower opponents (Rogers being the most recent example). Cormier is not a fast or explosive fighter. He is strong and his wrestling is very good, but he’s gotta get close enough to Jones to make those advantages useful, I don’t see him doing that.

I do agree with you though that he may end up winning via a decision as I’m not sure he possesses the power or accuracy to put Cormier down with strikes and although his submission game has been continuously improving, I’m not sure he’d be able to control Cormier on the ground like he has done to his previous opponents. But I don’t see him taking much damage in doing so or it really resembling anything like a competitive fight.[/quote]

I dont think jones can hurt Cormier on the feet, but i think he will hurt him on the ground.

Cormier is a great wrestler, and a strong guy, but the fact of the matter is he will not be so strong at LHW, and Jones has absolutely manhandled other great wrestlers (Bader, Vlad, Hammill)[/quote]
Cormier was the USA wrestling captain, I doubt he could take Cormier down. Standup wise he would get tagged a lot because he is slow and doesn’t have the reach to touch Jones.[/quote]

In a wrestling match I agree, but MMA wrestling is different than regular wrestling. It’s a lot different stopping a takedown when you can focus solely on grappling and assume a stance that is designed specifically for that purpose than when your opponent it punching you in the face, kicking you in the knees and doesn’t have to grapple with you at all. Jones is a better MMA wrestler than Cormier IMO (based on his success with it against opponents as well as his set ups and transitions) while Cormier is the better pure wrestler.

[/quote]
Jones only managed one takedown on Rashad and two on Rampage, I stand by my statement he would have an extremely hard time taking down someone who throws around HW’s and shrugs off their takedowns. [/quote]

Rashad has out wrestled Phil Davis, Tito, and Rampage; and Rampage has some of the best hips and takedown defense in all of MMA (and is one of the strongest fighters in MMA, especially on a pound for pound basis, as well). Rampage stuffed every single takedown attempted by Kevin Randleman (who has also fought at HW and thrown around some big name HW’s in his time).

Rampage and Rashad are also again much better strikers than Cormier and again, it’s a lot harder to Sprawl when you are being punched in the face.

Cormier has never faced anyone with the athleticism, well roundedness, reach advantage, or speed of Jon Jones (quite frankly because there aren’t any HW’s that fall into that category). Cormier is just not skilled enough as a striker to avoid getting tagged over and over with longe range punches to the face and kicks to the knees.

Just like what happened to Rampage, Rashad, and Belfort he will get picked apart, frustrated, and then when he is mentally off balance Jones can take him down if he wants to. And even if he can’t keep Cormier down, he can continue to keep the treat of the takedown alive, which only serves to keep Cormier mentally and physically off balance.

Not to mention that we are talking about Cormier cutting down to LHW, which he is not used to. Who knows how much of a strength advantage Cormier would still possess (if any), or how that would affect his gas tank.[/quote]
They’ll fight soon enough and I guarantee Jones will not take him down. [/quote]

Guess we’ll have to wait and see won’t we :slight_smile:

I hope Cormier do a Fedor’ization on JJ.

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]audiogarden1 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]atfkao wrote:
I think it’s easy to defend Jones’ continuation of his championship because we’ve seen him fight more big-name fighters in the UFC. Many people still put UFC fight experience on a higher tier than other leagues, so naturally, when a fighter has spent his career not fighting in the UFC, it’s easy to discredit him. As Ben Henderson has proven, you can walk into the UFC later into your career and become a champion.

Another example - even though Nick Daiz fought a little in the UFC years back before he made his home in Strikeforce, his return to the UFC quickly put him back into the title contention picture. Who would have thought that he would beat up BJ Penn as badly as he did? (I’ll add BJ was thought to be one of the best boxers in MMA).

I don’t know if being a ‘dynamic striker’ is really necesary to beat Jones. I think Fedor was a good example of this idea. Fedor’s striking wasn’t about the volume or variation of strikes. He waited for his openings and threw everything he had into them. He could capitalize on a split second opportunity and use it to do major damage.

I don’t see Jones submitting Cormier (and he’s won a solid percentage of his last several fights via submission). If Jones win, I think it would be by decision, and he’d be badly hurt. [/quote]

Fedor was also very fast and explosive in his prime though, that speed advantage allowed him to beat some larger slower opponents (Rogers being the most recent example). Cormier is not a fast or explosive fighter. He is strong and his wrestling is very good, but he’s gotta get close enough to Jones to make those advantages useful, I don’t see him doing that.

I do agree with you though that he may end up winning via a decision as I’m not sure he possesses the power or accuracy to put Cormier down with strikes and although his submission game has been continuously improving, I’m not sure he’d be able to control Cormier on the ground like he has done to his previous opponents. But I don’t see him taking much damage in doing so or it really resembling anything like a competitive fight.[/quote]

I dont think jones can hurt Cormier on the feet, but i think he will hurt him on the ground.

Cormier is a great wrestler, and a strong guy, but the fact of the matter is he will not be so strong at LHW, and Jones has absolutely manhandled other great wrestlers (Bader, Vlad, Hammill)[/quote]
Cormier was the USA wrestling captain, I doubt he could take Cormier down. Standup wise he would get tagged a lot because he is slow and doesn’t have the reach to touch Jones.[/quote]

In a wrestling match I agree, but MMA wrestling is different than regular wrestling. It’s a lot different stopping a takedown when you can focus solely on grappling and assume a stance that is designed specifically for that purpose than when your opponent it punching you in the face, kicking you in the knees and doesn’t have to grapple with you at all. Jones is a better MMA wrestler than Cormier IMO (based on his success with it against opponents as well as his set ups and transitions) while Cormier is the better pure wrestler.

[/quote]
Jones only managed one takedown on Rashad and two on Rampage, I stand by my statement he would have an extremely hard time taking down someone who throws around HW’s and shrugs off their takedowns. [/quote]

Rashad has out wrestled Phil Davis, Tito, and Rampage; and Rampage has some of the best hips and takedown defense in all of MMA (and is one of the strongest fighters in MMA, especially on a pound for pound basis, as well). Rampage stuffed every single takedown attempted by Kevin Randleman (who has also fought at HW and thrown around some big name HW’s in his time).

Rampage and Rashad are also again much better strikers than Cormier and again, it’s a lot harder to Sprawl when you are being punched in the face.

Cormier has never faced anyone with the athleticism, well roundedness, reach advantage, or speed of Jon Jones (quite frankly because there aren’t any HW’s that fall into that category). Cormier is just not skilled enough as a striker to avoid getting tagged over and over with longe range punches to the face and kicks to the knees.

Just like what happened to Rampage, Rashad, and Belfort he will get picked apart, frustrated, and then when he is mentally off balance Jones can take him down if he wants to. And even if he can’t keep Cormier down, he can continue to keep the treat of the takedown alive, which only serves to keep Cormier mentally and physically off balance.

Not to mention that we are talking about Cormier cutting down to LHW, which he is not used to. Who knows how much of a strength advantage Cormier would still possess (if any), or how that would affect his gas tank.[/quote]
They’ll fight soon enough and I guarantee Jones will not take him down. [/quote]

Yeah, Jones has been tooling complete cans on the ground. Matyushenko was only the Russian national wrestling champion, and the best guy he ever wiped the floor with was olympic gold medal wrestler Kevin Jackson.

In all seriousness, i think you need to research the wrestling backgrounds of some of the guys that Jones has absolutely embarrassed. Jones has faced no less than 4 guys with wrestling backgrounds greater than anyone cormier has.

Cormier will never get close enough to Jones to get a TD if they ever fight, and a Jones will throw a 205lb Cormier to the mat like he does everyone else. Lets not forget that cormier will be lighter and weaker at 205 than he is now.