Joint Pain With Cleans

[buffalokilla]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I do have over 30 years experience but heck anyone can make a mistake. I think I might be in good company however. I guess the world is full of folks who got this one wrong. (what the heck are we thinking of?)
[/quote]

It’s possible you’ve been tight for 30 years, ya know…

“Dr. Squat” Fred Hatfield (first man to Squat 1000lbs.) who has over 40 years in the iron game clearly states that you should always use wrist wraps when performing any sort of Olympic movement. According to his web site he thinks that you can damage your wrists with such movements if you do not wrap them appropriately. But keep in mind he does not know as much as the posters on this thread.

Doc was one of the first guys I ever read regarding weight training, and his methods still have a lot of influence over my thinking. He’s a briliant man who’s more than willing to share everything he knows. You’re taking him out of context, though.

"“Aw, Fred! My elbows and shoulders are too tight to rack the bar! I’ll tear myself up!”

Tch! Tch! Y’know what? Maybe – just maybe – getting a little flexibility in those joints will aid in preventing a few of those aches and pains I keep hearing about from so many athletes (but RARELY hear from Olympic lifters). It’s probably a good idea to wear wrist wraps, though. No point in traumatizing yourself."

As you can see, he’s talking about athletes who don’t have decent flexibility yet.

And, as the other poster pointed out, those who DO have the requisite flexibility wear them for support on the jerk.

For every person you have who cautions against using the O-lifts, there’s another who highly recommends them. They’re safe, ZEB, when done properly (or even reasonably well) and with good flexibility. If you can show me how they “jam up the wrists,” I’ll gladly take a second look. What I do know is that I’ve seen a dozen or so studies showing the safety and known many people who perform the lifts without occuring any damage. The few I’ve known who do have pain are also extremely tight. It’s not a coincidence, it’s simple biomechanics. Wrists hurting in a clean with tight wrists is exactly analagous to knees hurting in a squat with tight hamstrings/quads/etc.

I’m surprised at this sarcasm from you, ZEB. You’re usually a very civil man.

Dethroe, don’t try to clean to that position. It’s purpose is for those who have some sort of injury and can’t hold the bar in a proper clean grip, and is used for the front squat by itself, no clean prior.

-Dan

[Adamsson]

Well, I have to admit that even though I do martial arts and stretch some parts of my body quite often, injuries have made both my shoulders and my elbows stiff as wood (the joys of the kimura and the armbar… ) This comes back to bite me in the ass now. When squatting I have to hold the bar at the plates to even get under it at all.

Any thoughts on which stretching exercises that could help on shoulder/elbow/triceps stiffness? especially the lower part of the tric, where it is connected to the elbow? And well, Is there a sticky-thread somewhere on stretching for powerlifters? or should i just use the search-function and stfu?

cain

[buffalokilla]

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
Well, I have to admit that even though I do martial arts and stretch some parts of my body quite often, injuries have made both my shoulders and my elbows stiff as wood (the joys of the kimura and the armbar… ) This comes back to bite me in the ass now. When squatting I have to hold the bar at the plates to even get under it at all.

Any thoughts on which stretching exercises that could help on shoulder/elbow/triceps stiffness? especially the lower part of the tric, where it is connected to the elbow? And well, Is there a sticky-thread somewhere on stretching for powerlifters? or should i just use the search-function and stfu?

cain[/quote]

You may be in a situation where ART or a similar type of myofascial release technique is the best way to get ROM back. If they muscles and such have been taking a beating for a while, simple stretching won’t usually cut it.

www.activerelease.com has a locator function to find someone close by.

If you want to try some other things before the release stuff, using normal stretches but holding them for upwards of 5 minutes (built up to, starting with one minute and going up a minute per week) may help a bit. There’s a number of good routines in the search function

Obviously stop any stretch if you feel pain; with a lot of martial arts experience, there may be some injuries in there that stretching can aggrivate. If that happens, seeing a good ortho is in order.

Best of luck-

Dan

[Deathroe]

HAHA buffalo, i wouldnt try and clean it like that. Thanks for all the replies everyone. ive realized i hold my elbows down when front squatting, which is placing the stresses on wrists. after watching dimas training and balancing 375 lbs across his shoulders gets the point across well. no hands folks!

I think i have crappy hip flexibility because my back curls up horribly when my hams make contact with my calves, which is most likely why my elbows drop. So ive been stretching all my the muscles surrounding my hips, which i hope will help. plus my ankles, wrists and shoulders are getting some stretches too. gotta hit em all! once again thanks for the help everyone.

[Krollmonster]

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Do you see how the wrists bend back in the photo above? Well…that’s not good for a wrist…But keep doing them…who cares right?[/quote]

Zeb, the weight isn’t on the wrist, all the weight is on her clavicles and front delts. Actually, it isn’t necessary to have as much of the palm on the bar, I front squat with only three fingers of each hand touching the bar, and only about half of each finger touch the bar. I certainly couldn’t support the weight on the wrist or the fingers.

If the weight is not supported on the front delts, clavicles, your position isn’t right. The most important thing is keeping your elbows up and fighting the temptation to grip the bar hard because it makes it impossible to hold correctly otherwise. One of these days I will post a pic of me front squatting with a close up of the grip and a bit of weight on the bar to show how it looks.

[Krollmonster]

Here is the vid of Reza Zedah, who won the gold in the superheavy category. I think he has about 600lbs on the bar and there are only 2 fingers on each hand touching the bar. Certainly the weight isn’t being held up by 4 fingers!

http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=16BMX600HCJ6Q1PSVOPTCTYY6X

[Krollmonster]

On what ZEB wrote:

Zeb, it’s good that someone like you with 30 years of experience is on this board, but I wouldn’t expect the sarcasm. Your experience doesn’t mean you cannot be mistaken or incorrect. Do you have any experience with olympic lifting personally? You are correct that the lifts can be difficult to learn and I don’t suggest most people should learn them by themselves.

With all due respect to Dr. Squat, he isn’t an olympic lifter. There are OLers all over the world lifting in this manner for a looong time.

Without a doubt, Dr. Squat is a damn incredible lifter and I don’t think anyone in this forum is saying that they know more than him, but they can disagree with certain aspects of his training. Saying that OL should always be done with straps because of safety concerns is just begging the question. Actually a few…

How do straps prevent injury during OL?
How are you supposed to rack a weight with straps preventing movement of the wrist? It is very unsafe to catch the weight in a similar position to the bottom of a military press.
During OL, sometimes you have to drop the weight if the bar moves to the front or rear too much or just isn’t in the right groove.

If this happens one shouldn’t try to “muscle” it into the correct position. Dropping the weight becomes a lot more difficult with straps.

If you feel that the positions aren’t right for you or a certain person you may train, I would completely understand not including them in a program. However, I find it curious that someone with 30 years of experience hasn’t taken and/or sought out the correct way to do them (if that is indeed your case).

Please check out the videos I have posted. I will also post a vid of an OL and at its conclusion, he walks the bar back to the rack with his arms outstretched and only touching his front delts/upper chest/clavicles.

[Krollmonster]

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Ironmind_1993_Dimas

[slotan]

[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
Here is the vid of Reza Zedah, who won the gold in the superheavy category. I think he has about 600lbs on the bar and there are only 2 fingers on each hand touching the bar. Certainly the weight isn’t being held up by 4 fingers!

http://s37.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=16BMX600HCJ6Q1PSVOPTCTYY6X [/quote]

That’s the video I was talking about in my post but I was wrong about the weight, “only” 600lbs.

[TheJoeFletch]

[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Ironmind_1993_Dimas

[/quote]

This is a great video!

-Machine

[ZEB]

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
I’m surprised at this sarcasm from you, ZEB. You’re usually a very civil man.

-Dan [/quote]

Forgive me, I had just come from the political threads when I wrote that

However, there are better movements with less joint and tendon stress than the Olympic lifts in question.

Take care,

Zeb

[Adamsson]

When it comes to straps: I think it depends a lot on the type of straps and how/where you use them. You can use straps in a way that lets you use the healthy range of the joint, but prevents the joint from going any further, I would think that such a solution would be to recommend if you have problems with yoru wrists.

[Viking69]

[quote]machine514 wrote:
Krollmonster wrote:
http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Ironmind_1993_Dimas

This is a great video!

-Machine

[/quote]

You can buy that video from ironmind

1993 World Weightlifting Championships #1297 Melbourne, Austrailia

Great Video!

[slotan]

[quote]Krollmonster wrote:
http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Ironmind_1993_Dimas

[/quote]

One question for Krollmosnter: what is Dimas using around his wrists in the beginning of the video (Power Snatching and Snathing). Are those wrist wraps?

[Krollmonster]

[quote]slotan wrote:
Krollmonster wrote:
http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=Ironmind_1993_Dimas

One question for Krollmosnter: what is Dimas using around his wrists in the beginning of the video (Power Snatching and Snathing). Are those wrist wraps?
[/quote]

ahhha, yes they are wrist wraps! haahha
I have heard that using wraps helps you to just concentrate on the pull, but just remember that Dimas has exceptional technique and he is not going to have to bail on the submax weights he is using. I have heard of some advanced lifters using straps with near limit weights in the snatch, but not the clean. I would be interested in seeing if anyone is using straps for cleans, since they require more wrist flexibility.

For a beginner I definitely wouldn’t recommend straps just so they can bail if they need to and practice getting their wrists in the right positions. I couldn’t imagine learning the snatch while wearing straps. And if someone starts out OL with straps during cleans, I don’t see how they will learn to properly “rack” the weight across the shoulders.

[Krollmonster]

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
When it comes to straps: I think it depends a lot on the type of straps and how/where you use them. You can use straps in a way that lets you use the healthy range of the joint, but prevents the joint from going any further, I would think that such a solution would be to recommend if you have problems with yoru wrists. [/quote]

I can agree with you. I heard from one skilled OL that he only wraps around his straps around the bar once during snatches so it is easier to get out. Personally, I don’t like straps for snatches, but then again I am not as experienced as he is…I’ve only been OLing for a year.

[Adamsson]

offtopic: (I’m a new powerlifted, just a newbie… ) but today i tried something fun, one-arm snatch (all the way up, right?) with a olympic barbell, quite fun!

[slotan]

Krollmonster, thanks for the clarification.

[Deathroe]

I actually tried some cleans with my straps the other day, and it did not work at all. I wrapped them around like I would when deadlifting (nice and tight), I cleaned the bar up and OUCH, as the wrists bend back the straps tighten more and it feels like theyre tearing through your wrists. very bad idea. The only way i can see to get around this is to not tighten them in the beginning which would (as it seems) contradicting the whole purpose, since it would be taking away any support. I suppose you could use some sort of wrist stabilizers (ive actually seen someone use these be4) but generic straps just dont cut it. anyways, straps are no good, you dont want to rely on them. Its like squatting every time with a belt. Sure it helps on those max lifts, but you dont want to rely on it.

[fitman]

[quote]Deathroe wrote:
I actually tried some cleans with my straps the other day, and it did not work at all. I wrapped them around like I would when deadlifting (nice and tight), I cleaned the bar up and OUCH, as the wrists bend back the straps tighten more and it feels like theyre tearing through your wrists. very bad idea. The only way i can see to get around this is to not tighten them in the beginning which would (as it seems) contradicting the whole purpose, since it would be taking away any support. I suppose you could use some sort of wrist stabilizers (ive actually seen someone use these be4) but generic straps just dont cut it. anyways, straps are no good, you dont want to rely on them. Its like squatting every time with a belt. Sure it helps on those max lifts, but you dont want to rely on it.[/quote]

Wrist wraps are okay for the oly lifts and their breakdowns, wrist straps shouldn’t be used for cleans. They are occassionally used for high pulls or other breakdowns but the point of bumper plates is to be able to safely dump the load if need be without shearing the bar - or embarrassing yourself too much! You couldn’t execute this safety move if you’re tied to the loaded bar.

The correct position of the bar in the ‘rack position’ is as noted, across the upper chest, delt, clavicle, elbows high, bar positioned at the tips of one or two fingers. Take a deep breath in before executing the lift to raise the chest and keep the elbows high upon catching to maintain the balanced position. If a press or a return to the starting position is next (as opposed to another front squat), upon rising from the squat portion of the clean, pop the bar allowing room for the hands to again grasp the bar, preferably with a hook grip.

Some stretching of the wrist before and during warmups will help. 1. Hold your fingernails against the front delts - palms up, elbows toward the midline of the chest. While holding the fingers in place, gradually push your elbow high until the upper arm is parallel to the floor. 2. Approach a flat bench palms down. Rotate the hands laterally (to the outside)until the palms are flat on the bench, finger tips toward your thighs. While maintaining the heel of the palm in contact with bench, sit back thereby stretching the medial aspect of the forearm/wrist.

USAW has several good resources for people who want to add the oly lifts or their breakdowns to their routine - highly recommended!