Joe Frazier

Bigger Stronger Leaner
21

[quote]WolBarret wrote:
Sifu wrote:
otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Tyson got his hook punch technique from watching films of Frazier. Frazier was a great fighter.

It is because of the greatness of Frazier, that I think the two round beatdown George Foreman put on him in their first fight makes Foreman the scariest heavyweight in boxing history. George beat Joe like a redheaded stepchild.

Tyson never dominated someone that good, that badly.

Michael Spinks was a pretty damn good fighter. There were guys picking Spinks in that fight.

I don’t think Tyson was the greatest HW ever. But he didn’t beat up bums either. He beat some good fighters. Joe Louis also.

Spinks was a good fighter, but he was not one of the top ten best ever like Frazier. Spinks was good but he was not in the same league as Frazier.

Frazier fought and beat Muhammad Ali before he fought Foreman. Spinks fought a bunch of nobodies before he fought Tyson. Spinks took the middleweight gold medal at the Montreal Olympics. Frazier took the heavyweight gold at the Tokyo Olympics.

Frazier was still in his prime and his biggest win was against Ali who was probably the best ever and still in his prime. That is why I say that Frazier vs Foreman fight was so impressive. Frazier was one of the greatest ever but Foreman demolished him like Tyson demolished chumps.

That is why I say that win over Frazier makes Foreman probably the scariest heavyweight ever.

Also, Ali beat Foreman. But here was his game plan: Cover up, take a lot of shots, and pray that George gets tired. Then I’ll knock him out…hopefully.

Ali won that fight by survival. [/quote]

Ali Bombaye

Watch the movie “When We Were Kings.”

22

[quote]Djwlfpack wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Djwlfpack wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Djwlfpack wrote:
True story: I played blackjack with Smokin’ Joe and few memebers of his crew when he was in my hometown doing an appearance at the Boxing Hall of Fame.

Real cool guy. That is, until he started losing a bunch of hands to me :slight_smile: He told some great stories and I wrangled an autograph out of the deal.

The HOF in Canestota? I have never been but I used to always drive by when they were building it.

Were you at Turning Stone?

Yes, it was the Turning Stone. Zap, you still live in Upstate, NY?

No but I was up there a couple weeks ago for the first time in years and drove by both those places.

How is the Boxing HOF? Is it worthwhile?

I honestly have been to the HOF in a decade. Back then, the thing wasn’t bigger than a large shed. From what I’ve heard it’s better than what it was, but I don’t think it’s something worth going out of your way to see.[/quote]

I remember the shed in the parking lot of McDonalds.

23

[quote]WolBarret wrote:
Sifu wrote:
otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:

Also, Ali beat Foreman. But here was his game plan: Cover up, take a lot of shots, and pray that George gets tired. Then I’ll knock him out…hopefully.

Ali won that fight by survival. [/quote]

I can still remember the prefight interview where Ali said he had a new fighting strategy he called “rope a dope”. Nobody knew what he was talking about.

24

[quote]otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Tyson got his hook punch technique from watching films of Frazier. Frazier was a great fighter.

It is because of the greatness of Frazier, that I think the two round beatdown George Foreman put on him in their first fight makes Foreman the scariest heavyweight in boxing history. George beat Joe like a redheaded stepchild.

Tyson never dominated someone that good, that badly.

Michael Spinks was a pretty damn good fighter. There were guys picking Spinks in that fight.

I don’t think Tyson was the greatest HW ever. But he didn’t beat up bums either. He beat some good fighters. Joe Louis also.

Spinks was a good fighter, but he was not one of the top ten best ever like Frazier. Spinks was good but he was not in the same league as Frazier.

Frazier fought and beat Muhammad Ali before he fought Foreman. Spinks fought a bunch of nobodies before he fought Tyson. Spinks took the middleweight gold medal at the Montreal Olympics. Frazier took the heavyweight gold at the Tokyo Olympics.

Frazier was still in his prime and his biggest win was against Ali who was probably the best ever and still in his prime. That is why I say that Frazier vs Foreman fight was so impressive. Frazier was one of the greatest ever but Foreman demolished him like Tyson demolished chumps.

That is why I say that win over Frazier makes Foreman probably the scariest heavyweight ever.

I agree for the most part. Except that Spinks beat a 48-0 Larry Holmes, who was one of the best HWs ever.[/quote]

Oh no you didn’t!! Larry Holmes was champion during the most boring era in heavyweight boxing history. Holmes came one win short of matching Rocky Marciano’s record of of 49-0 because the rest of the heavyweight division were beat up has beens (Ali), in retirement (Foreman) or just plain sucked.

Holmes’ era sucked so bad that the heavyweight crown splintered into three different champions. This is why HBO came up with the idea of having a title unification series of fights. The dominator who reunified the heavyweight crown was Mike Tyson who demolished Spinks and Holmes.

Holmes breaking Marciano’s record would have been one of the greatest travesty’s in boxing history. Holmes beating an over the hill Ali was worse than Marciano beating an old Joe Lewis. Even at the end of his reign Marciano was beating good fighters, like Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore.

Holmes will never be considered a great champion.

[quote]
Twice. Then knocked out Gerry Cooney. First LHW champ to be HW champ.[/quote]

Gerry Cooney was called “The Great White Dope” he was a nobody.

Rocky Marciano went 49-0 against stiff competition at 184 pounds.

Mohammad Ali (Cassius Clay) was the 1960 Olympic light heavyweight gold medalist. Ali beat Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman.

Holmes getting his undefeated run ended by someone as weak as Spinks says it all. Rocky Marciano’s record setting win was over Archie Moore. Archie Moore was light heavyweight champion for seven years. Moore’s career total of 145 knockouts is still the world record. Moore was the only fighter to fight Marciano and Ali.

The early seventies Ali, Frazier, Foreman era was the greatest era in heavyweight boxing history. Three of the top ten heavyweights of all time in their prime. There has never been another era like that.

25

[quote]Sifu wrote:
…
Holmes will never be considered a great champion.

…[/quote]

Holmes was champ during a very weak time but he was a hell of a good fighter. Due to the level of his competition I cannot rank him at the top either but I find myself respecting him more now than I did in the past.

His jab was fantastic.

26

[quote]Sifu wrote:
otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Tyson got his hook punch technique from watching films of Frazier. Frazier was a great fighter.

It is because of the greatness of Frazier, that I think the two round beatdown George Foreman put on him in their first fight makes Foreman the scariest heavyweight in boxing history. George beat Joe like a redheaded stepchild.

Tyson never dominated someone that good, that badly.

Michael Spinks was a pretty damn good fighter. There were guys picking Spinks in that fight.

I don’t think Tyson was the greatest HW ever. But he didn’t beat up bums either. He beat some good fighters. Joe Louis also.

Spinks was a good fighter, but he was not one of the top ten best ever like Frazier. Spinks was good but he was not in the same league as Frazier.

Frazier fought and beat Muhammad Ali before he fought Foreman. Spinks fought a bunch of nobodies before he fought Tyson. Spinks took the middleweight gold medal at the Montreal Olympics. Frazier took the heavyweight gold at the Tokyo Olympics.

Frazier was still in his prime and his biggest win was against Ali who was probably the best ever and still in his prime. That is why I say that Frazier vs Foreman fight was so impressive. Frazier was one of the greatest ever but Foreman demolished him like Tyson demolished chumps.

That is why I say that win over Frazier makes Foreman probably the scariest heavyweight ever.

I agree for the most part. Except that Spinks beat a 48-0 Larry Holmes, who was one of the best HWs ever.

Oh no you didn’t!! Larry Holmes was champion during the most boring era in heavyweight boxing history. Holmes came one win short of matching Rocky Marciano’s record of of 49-0 because the rest of the heavyweight division were beat up has beens (Ali), in retirement (Foreman) or just plain sucked.

Holmes’ era sucked so bad that the heavyweight crown splintered into three different champions. This is why HBO came up with the idea of having a title unification series of fights. The dominator who reunified the heavyweight crown was Mike Tyson who demolished Spinks and Holmes.

Holmes breaking Marciano’s record would have been one of the greatest travesty’s in boxing history. Holmes beating an over the hill Ali was worse than Marciano beating an old Joe Lewis. Even at the end of his reign Marciano was beating good fighters, like Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore.

Holmes will never be considered a great champion.

Twice. Then knocked out Gerry Cooney. First LHW champ to be HW champ.

Gerry Cooney was called “The Great White Dope” he was a nobody.

Rocky Marciano went 49-0 against stiff competition at 184 pounds.

Mohammad Ali (Cassius Clay) was the 1960 Olympic light heavyweight gold medalist. Ali beat Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman.

Holmes getting his undefeated run ended by someone as weak as Spinks says it all. Rocky Marciano’s record setting win was over Archie Moore. Archie Moore was light heavyweight champion for seven years. Moore’s career total of 145 knockouts is still the world record. Moore was the only fighter to fight Marciano and Ali.

The early seventies Ali, Frazier, Foreman era was the greatest era in heavyweight boxing history. Three of the top ten heavyweights of all time in their prime. There has never been another era like that.
[/quote]

I don’t agree.

I don’t agree with comparing every HW to the 70s and then saying they weren’t good. You can’t help when you are born. Like you could not have possibly been great unless you fought in the 70s.

I could be cynical and find reasons to state that Marciano or Joe Louis was not “great”. Or they fought alot of bums or in a weak era or their best wins were against guys past their prime. And some boxing writers have attempted to do so.

I think Joe Louis, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis were all great HW champs. And there are guys like Patterson, Tyson, Bowe, Dempsey who were great for a few years. Sure if you want to rank them on their greatness, sure Ali, Frazier would be closer to the top.

They were fortunate to have each other and Foreman. There were alot of great boxers who didn’t get to fight in a division, in an era like Ali’s. Doesn’t make tham weak.

Archie Moore was coming up from LHW to fight Marciano.

27

I just want to say: Fuck Ali

I prefer my champions under 6 feet tall.

28

[quote]otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Tyson got his hook punch technique from watching films of Frazier. Frazier was a great fighter.

It is because of the greatness of Frazier, that I think the two round beatdown George Foreman put on him in their first fight makes Foreman the scariest heavyweight in boxing history. George beat Joe like a redheaded stepchild.

Tyson never dominated someone that good, that badly.

Michael Spinks was a pretty damn good fighter. There were guys picking Spinks in that fight.

I don’t think Tyson was the greatest HW ever. But he didn’t beat up bums either. He beat some good fighters. Joe Louis also.

Spinks was a good fighter, but he was not one of the top ten best ever like Frazier. Spinks was good but he was not in the same league as Frazier.

Frazier fought and beat Muhammad Ali before he fought Foreman. Spinks fought a bunch of nobodies before he fought Tyson. Spinks took the middleweight gold medal at the Montreal Olympics. Frazier took the heavyweight gold at the Tokyo Olympics.

Frazier was still in his prime and his biggest win was against Ali who was probably the best ever and still in his prime. That is why I say that Frazier vs Foreman fight was so impressive. Frazier was one of the greatest ever but Foreman demolished him like Tyson demolished chumps.

That is why I say that win over Frazier makes Foreman probably the scariest heavyweight ever.

I agree for the most part. Except that Spinks beat a 48-0 Larry Holmes, who was one of the best HWs ever.

Oh no you didn’t!! Larry Holmes was champion during the most boring era in heavyweight boxing history. Holmes came one win short of matching Rocky Marciano’s record of of 49-0 because the rest of the heavyweight division were beat up has beens (Ali), in retirement (Foreman) or just plain sucked.

Holmes’ era sucked so bad that the heavyweight crown splintered into three different champions. This is why HBO came up with the idea of having a title unification series of fights. The dominator who reunified the heavyweight crown was Mike Tyson who demolished Spinks and Holmes.

Holmes breaking Marciano’s record would have been one of the greatest travesty’s in boxing history. Holmes beating an over the hill Ali was worse than Marciano beating an old Joe Lewis. Even at the end of his reign Marciano was beating good fighters, like Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore.

Holmes will never be considered a great champion.

Twice. Then knocked out Gerry Cooney. First LHW champ to be HW champ.

Gerry Cooney was called “The Great White Dope” he was a nobody.

Rocky Marciano went 49-0 against stiff competition at 184 pounds.

Mohammad Ali (Cassius Clay) was the 1960 Olympic light heavyweight gold medalist. Ali beat Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman.

Holmes getting his undefeated run ended by someone as weak as Spinks says it all. Rocky Marciano’s record setting win was over Archie Moore. Archie Moore was light heavyweight champion for seven years. Moore’s career total of 145 knockouts is still the world record. Moore was the only fighter to fight Marciano and Ali.

The early seventies Ali, Frazier, Foreman era was the greatest era in heavyweight boxing history. Three of the top ten heavyweights of all time in their prime. There has never been another era like that.

I don’t agree.

I don’t agree with comparing every HW to the 70s and then saying they weren’t good. You can’t help when you are born. Like you could not have possibly been great unless you fought in the 70s.

I could be cynical and find reasons to state that Marciano or Joe Louis was not “great”. Or they fought alot of bums or in a weak era or their best wins were against guys past their prime. And some boxing writers have attempted to do so.

I think Joe Louis, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis were all great HW champs. And there are guys like Patterson, Tyson, Bowe, Dempsey who were great for a few years. Sure if you want to rank them on their greatness, sure Ali, Frazier would be closer to the top.

They were fortunate to have each other and Foreman. There were alot of great boxers who didn’t get to fight in a division, in an era like Ali’s. Doesn’t make tham weak.

Archie Moore was coming up from LHW to fight Marciano.

[/quote]

You are misunderstanding what I wrote. I am not comparing those fighters to the seventies. The ultimate measure of a fighter is not the skills they have shown. The ultimate measure is the level of the competition they have faced.

Ali, Frazier, Foreman were not just great fighters whose paths crossed at varying times in their careers. The uniqueness of that early seventies era is that the peak of all three fighters careers coincided. None of the losses those three suffered can be excused with “well he was over the hill then” or “he was an inexperienced up and comer then”.

Ali was supposed to be getting old and was damaged from his wars with Frazier when he beat Foreman. Frazier was the undisputed, undefeated, heavyweight champion who defeated Ali when Foreman demolished him. Ali beat Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, three of the scariest fighters ever.

Compare the seventies era to the Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis era. When Evander Holyfield beat Mike Tyson, Iron Mike had been in self destruct mode for several years and was not at his best. When Lewis beat Tyson, Iron Mike was even more off his game.

Compare to the seventies

Tyson was a great fighter. I think if you took a twenty year old Tyson and swapped him in for Ali in the first fight with Frazier and it would have been Tysons best fight because they would have been a close match. But Frazier would not have been intimidated and Tyson did not do well against fighters who were not intimidated by him. So I think Frazier would have beat him.

Swap a twenty year old Tyson for Frazier against Foreman and George would have beat Tyson just like Frazier maybe worse. Because Tyson would get scared, didn’t do well against fighters he couldn’t intimidate and Foreman was the Scariest fighter ever.

Tyson Vs Mohammad Ali. Ali had better skills, Foreman couldn’t hurt him enough to beat him and if Foreman couldn’t intimidate Ali, Tyson never would. Tyson would have been another great fighter that Ali beat.

Put Holyfield or Lewis against the early 70’s Ali, Frazier, Foreman, and they would be facing better fighters than the version of Mike Tyson they beat. It would be some great boxing action.

29

[quote]Sifu wrote:
otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Tyson got his hook punch technique from watching films of Frazier. Frazier was a great fighter.

It is because of the greatness of Frazier, that I think the two round beatdown George Foreman put on him in their first fight makes Foreman the scariest heavyweight in boxing history. George beat Joe like a redheaded stepchild.

Tyson never dominated someone that good, that badly.

Michael Spinks was a pretty damn good fighter. There were guys picking Spinks in that fight.

I don’t think Tyson was the greatest HW ever. But he didn’t beat up bums either. He beat some good fighters. Joe Louis also.

Spinks was a good fighter, but he was not one of the top ten best ever like Frazier. Spinks was good but he was not in the same league as Frazier.

Frazier fought and beat Muhammad Ali before he fought Foreman. Spinks fought a bunch of nobodies before he fought Tyson. Spinks took the middleweight gold medal at the Montreal Olympics. Frazier took the heavyweight gold at the Tokyo Olympics.

Frazier was still in his prime and his biggest win was against Ali who was probably the best ever and still in his prime. That is why I say that Frazier vs Foreman fight was so impressive. Frazier was one of the greatest ever but Foreman demolished him like Tyson demolished chumps.

That is why I say that win over Frazier makes Foreman probably the scariest heavyweight ever.

I agree for the most part. Except that Spinks beat a 48-0 Larry Holmes, who was one of the best HWs ever.

Oh no you didn’t!! Larry Holmes was champion during the most boring era in heavyweight boxing history. Holmes came one win short of matching Rocky Marciano’s record of of 49-0 because the rest of the heavyweight division were beat up has beens (Ali), in retirement (Foreman) or just plain sucked.

Holmes’ era sucked so bad that the heavyweight crown splintered into three different champions. This is why HBO came up with the idea of having a title unification series of fights. The dominator who reunified the heavyweight crown was Mike Tyson who demolished Spinks and Holmes.

Holmes breaking Marciano’s record would have been one of the greatest travesty’s in boxing history. Holmes beating an over the hill Ali was worse than Marciano beating an old Joe Lewis. Even at the end of his reign Marciano was beating good fighters, like Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore.

Holmes will never be considered a great champion.

Twice. Then knocked out Gerry Cooney. First LHW champ to be HW champ.

Gerry Cooney was called “The Great White Dope” he was a nobody.

Rocky Marciano went 49-0 against stiff competition at 184 pounds.

Mohammad Ali (Cassius Clay) was the 1960 Olympic light heavyweight gold medalist. Ali beat Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman.

Holmes getting his undefeated run ended by someone as weak as Spinks says it all. Rocky Marciano’s record setting win was over Archie Moore. Archie Moore was light heavyweight champion for seven years. Moore’s career total of 145 knockouts is still the world record. Moore was the only fighter to fight Marciano and Ali.

The early seventies Ali, Frazier, Foreman era was the greatest era in heavyweight boxing history. Three of the top ten heavyweights of all time in their prime. There has never been another era like that.

I don’t agree.

I don’t agree with comparing every HW to the 70s and then saying they weren’t good. You can’t help when you are born. Like you could not have possibly been great unless you fought in the 70s.

I could be cynical and find reasons to state that Marciano or Joe Louis was not “great”. Or they fought alot of bums or in a weak era or their best wins were against guys past their prime. And some boxing writers have attempted to do so.

I think Joe Louis, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis were all great HW champs. And there are guys like Patterson, Tyson, Bowe, Dempsey who were great for a few years. Sure if you want to rank them on their greatness, sure Ali, Frazier would be closer to the top.

They were fortunate to have each other and Foreman. There were alot of great boxers who didn’t get to fight in a division, in an era like Ali’s. Doesn’t make tham weak.

Archie Moore was coming up from LHW to fight Marciano.

You are misunderstanding what I wrote. I am not comparing those fighters to the seventies. The ultimate measure of a fighter is not the skills they have shown. The ultimate measure is the level of the competition they have faced.

Ali, Frazier, Foreman were not just great fighters whose paths crossed at varying times in their careers. The uniqueness of that early seventies era is that the peak of all three fighters careers coincided. None of the losses those three suffered can be excused with “well he was over the hill then” or “he was an inexperienced up and comer then”.

Ali was supposed to be getting old and was damaged from his wars with Frazier when he beat Foreman. Frazier was the undisputed, undefeated, heavyweight champion who defeated Ali when Foreman demolished him. Ali beat Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, three of the scariest fighters ever.

Compare the seventies era to the Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis era. When Evander Holyfield beat Mike Tyson, Iron Mike had been in self destruct mode for several years and was not at his best. When Lewis beat Tyson, Iron Mike was even more off his game.

Compare to the seventies

Tyson was a great fighter. I think if you took a twenty year old Tyson and swapped him in for Ali in the first fight with Frazier and it would have been Tysons best fight because they would have been a close match. But Frazier would not have been intimidated and Tyson did not do well against fighters who were not intimidated by him. So I think Frazier would have beat him.

Swap a twenty year old Tyson for Frazier against Foreman and George would have beat Tyson just like Frazier maybe worse. Because Tyson would get scared, didn’t do well against fighters he couldn’t intimidate and Foreman was the Scariest fighter ever.

Tyson Vs Mohammad Ali. Ali had better skills, Foreman couldn’t hurt him enough to beat him and if Foreman couldn’t intimidate Ali, Tyson never would. Tyson would have been another great fighter that Ali beat.

Put Holyfield or Lewis against the early 70’s Ali, Frazier, Foreman, and they would be facing better fighters than the version of Mike Tyson they beat. It would be some great boxing action.

[/quote]

You are totally correct bro. That era was way more fierce and interesting. Everything about boxing has totally changed today. It seems more and more about money and less and less about fighting. This is why UFC is grabbing younger faces as fans. Boxing has totally changed and it is rare to see fighters that are even comparable to boxers of earlier eras. Even the 80s when boxing was starting to really change, the fighters were still GREAT. There was so much talent in almost every division. The 90s we had another heavyweight boom with tyson, holyfield and lewis…but has you mentioned its not comparable to ali, frazier and foreman. Tyson , holyfield lewis…it seems as though their paths crossed at all the wrong times. I feel like the values of most pro boxers today are totally fucked. Floyd Mayweather…everyone likes to talk about how hes some superhuman…he isn’t a portion of the man Arturo Gatti is…however many of you will say he is because he beat him. Ali was real fast for a heavyweight, had great skills, but he also didn’t mind getting hit. It’s apparent Mayweather cannot stand being hit. Please noone compare our era of boxing to earlier ones…it seems to get worse and worse over the years.

30

[quote]facko wrote:

You are totally correct bro. That era was way more fierce and interesting. Everything about boxing has totally changed today. It seems more and more about money and less and less about fighting. This is why UFC is grabbing younger faces as fans.

Boxing has totally changed and it is rare to see fighters that are even comparable to boxers of earlier eras. Even the 80s when boxing was starting to really change, the fighters were still GREAT. There was so much talent in almost every division.

The 90s we had another heavyweight boom with tyson, holyfield and lewis…but has you mentioned its not comparable to ali, frazier and foreman. Tyson , holyfield lewis…it seems as though their paths crossed at all the wrong times.

I feel like the values of most pro boxers today are totally fucked. Floyd Mayweather…everyone likes to talk about how hes some superhuman…he isn’t a portion of the man Arturo Gatti is…however many of you will say he is because he beat him.

Ali was real fast for a heavyweight, had great skills, but he also didn’t mind getting hit. It’s apparent Mayweather cannot stand being hit. Please noone compare our era of boxing to earlier ones…it seems to get worse and worse over the years.[/quote]

You don’t box, do you?

Nearly everything in this post is wrong, especially the part about Pretty Boy.

He’s the best technical boxer… well, he may be the best ever. I’ve never seen anyone come close.

Ali “didn’t mind getting hit” because he was a heavyweight, and they simply can’t move as fast as lighter guys.

And you’re measuring manhood by boxing styles? C’mon. Arturo Gatti is one of my favorite fighters of all time because he had heart… but let’s face it, he didn’t have a ton of talent. He worked through that.

To say Mayweather is less of a man because he’s a counterpuncher instead of a brawler is insane. Not to mention the beating (and it was just that- an absolutely unfair beating) that he put on Gatti.

If you don’t think that Micky Ward (heart), Kelly Pavlik (power and KO %), Floyd Mayeather (skills and speed), RJJ (speed, power, and dominance for 15 years), Manny Pacquaio (most powerful lightweight I’ve seen) compare to the boxers of old, than you’re sadly mistaken. Ward-Gatti or Corrales-Castillo can compare to Hagler- Hearns.

I hate people who get this nostalgia bullshit going… it’s simply not true. Everyone wants to believe that back in the day, guys were tougher, faster, smarter… when in reality, it’s about the same as it ever was.

32

[quote]Sifu wrote:

You are misunderstanding what I wrote. I am not comparing those fighters to the seventies. The ultimate measure of a fighter is not the skills they have shown. The ultimate measure is the level of the competition they have faced.

Ali, Frazier, Foreman were not just great fighters whose paths crossed at varying times in their careers. The uniqueness of that early seventies era is that the peak of all three fighters careers coincided. None of the losses those three suffered can be excused with “well he was over the hill then” or “he was an inexperienced up and comer then”.

Ali was supposed to be getting old and was damaged from his wars with Frazier when he beat Foreman. Frazier was the undisputed, undefeated, heavyweight champion who defeated Ali when Foreman demolished him. Ali beat Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, three of the scariest fighters ever.

Compare the seventies era to the Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis era. When Evander Holyfield beat Mike Tyson, Iron Mike had been in self destruct mode for several years and was not at his best. When Lewis beat Tyson, Iron Mike was even more off his game.

Compare to the seventies

Tyson was a great fighter. I think if you took a twenty year old Tyson and swapped him in for Ali in the first fight with Frazier and it would have been Tysons best fight because they would have been a close match. But Frazier would not have been intimidated and Tyson did not do well against fighters who were not intimidated by him. So I think Frazier would have beat him.
[/quote]

I think so too.

Have to agree. But that would have been a brawl… and you never know. Two sluggers like that, it could have had Tyson pulling off an upset with that hook/uppercut/hook… but it’s hard to bring the big man down.

I would have personally liked to have seen this.

8 out of 10 fights I agree.

But maybe it’s because I’d like to see Tyson against anyone, but I could see Tyson winning that fight, maybe on an early lucky shot. Frazier put Ali down… and Tyson, when he was 20, was faster than Frazier, and his power is comparable. Not to mention, Frazier lived off of 1 punch-that left hook. Tyson was more versatile.

I’m just playing devil’s advocate. When guys are over 200 lbs. and pro fighters, any one punch can mean lights out, so predicting fights is like predicting whether the universe is an open or closed one… you don’t know, and neither do I.

I agree.

Holyfield was great… and though I’m not a Lewis fan, I have to admit his quality as a fighter.

33

[quote]WolBarret wrote:

Also, Ali beat Foreman. But here was his game plan: Cover up, take a lot of shots, and pray that George gets tired. Then I’ll knock him out…hopefully.

Ali won that fight by survival. [/quote]

And Ali deserved to beat him. He beat Foreman with his brains. He didn’t pray that George would get tired, Ali could take a punch. Foreman couldnt take him out. Is there any greater picture in boxing, or for that matter any sport, than when Ali dropped Foreman in that fight? Pure genius.

34

Whoever said they could find a reason to dismiss Joe Louis is a moron. Joe Louis is widely regarded in boxing circles as the greatest HW of all time, and up there with Sugar Ray Robinson as best pound for pound boxer ever. The beating Foreman put on Frazier is one of the greatest upsets in sports history.

35

[quote]entheogens wrote:
WolBarret wrote:

Also, Ali beat Foreman. But here was his game plan: Cover up, take a lot of shots, and pray that George gets tired. Then I’ll knock him out…hopefully.

Ali won that fight by survival.

And Ali deserved to beat him. He beat Foreman with his brains. He didn’t pray that George would get tired, Ali could take a punch. Foreman couldnt take him out. Is there any greater picture in boxing, or for that matter any sport, than when Ali dropped Foreman in that fight? Pure genius.
[/quote]

I agree.

Best example of ring generalship I’ve ever seen.

They said at one point in the later rounds, Foreman was hammering away at him, and Ali leaned in and said, “That all you got George?”

As I recall, that’s when Foreman said, “Oh shit…”

36

[quote]facko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
otoko wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Tyson got his hook punch technique from watching films of Frazier. Frazier was a great fighter.

It is because of the greatness of Frazier, that I think the two round beatdown George Foreman put on him in their first fight makes Foreman the scariest heavyweight in boxing history. George beat Joe like a redheaded stepchild.

Tyson never dominated someone that good, that badly.

Michael Spinks was a pretty damn good fighter. There were guys picking Spinks in that fight.

I don’t think Tyson was the greatest HW ever. But he didn’t beat up bums either. He beat some good fighters. Joe Louis also.

Spinks was a good fighter, but he was not one of the top ten best ever like Frazier. Spinks was good but he was not in the same league as Frazier.

Frazier fought and beat Muhammad Ali before he fought Foreman. Spinks fought a bunch of nobodies before he fought Tyson. Spinks took the middleweight gold medal at the Montreal Olympics. Frazier took the heavyweight gold at the Tokyo Olympics.

Frazier was still in his prime and his biggest win was against Ali who was probably the best ever and still in his prime. That is why I say that Frazier vs Foreman fight was so impressive. Frazier was one of the greatest ever but Foreman demolished him like Tyson demolished chumps.

That is why I say that win over Frazier makes Foreman probably the scariest heavyweight ever.

I agree for the most part. Except that Spinks beat a 48-0 Larry Holmes, who was one of the best HWs ever.

Oh no you didn’t!! Larry Holmes was champion during the most boring era in heavyweight boxing history. Holmes came one win short of matching Rocky Marciano’s record of of 49-0 because the rest of the heavyweight division were beat up has beens (Ali), in retirement (Foreman) or just plain sucked.

Holmes’ era sucked so bad that the heavyweight crown splintered into three different champions. This is why HBO came up with the idea of having a title unification series of fights. The dominator who reunified the heavyweight crown was Mike Tyson who demolished Spinks and Holmes.

Holmes breaking Marciano’s record would have been one of the greatest travesty’s in boxing history. Holmes beating an over the hill Ali was worse than Marciano beating an old Joe Lewis. Even at the end of his reign Marciano was beating good fighters, like Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore.

Holmes will never be considered a great champion.

Twice. Then knocked out Gerry Cooney. First LHW champ to be HW champ.

Gerry Cooney was called “The Great White Dope” he was a nobody.

Rocky Marciano went 49-0 against stiff competition at 184 pounds.

Mohammad Ali (Cassius Clay) was the 1960 Olympic light heavyweight gold medalist. Ali beat Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman.

Holmes getting his undefeated run ended by someone as weak as Spinks says it all. Rocky Marciano’s record setting win was over Archie Moore. Archie Moore was light heavyweight champion for seven years. Moore’s career total of 145 knockouts is still the world record. Moore was the only fighter to fight Marciano and Ali.

The early seventies Ali, Frazier, Foreman era was the greatest era in heavyweight boxing history. Three of the top ten heavyweights of all time in their prime. There has never been another era like that.

I don’t agree.

I don’t agree with comparing every HW to the 70s and then saying they weren’t good. You can’t help when you are born. Like you could not have possibly been great unless you fought in the 70s.

I could be cynical and find reasons to state that Marciano or Joe Louis was not “great”. Or they fought alot of bums or in a weak era or their best wins were against guys past their prime. And some boxing writers have attempted to do so.

I think Joe Louis, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield, Lennox Lewis were all great HW champs. And there are guys like Patterson, Tyson, Bowe, Dempsey who were great for a few years. Sure if you want to rank them on their greatness, sure Ali, Frazier would be closer to the top.

They were fortunate to have each other and Foreman. There were alot of great boxers who didn’t get to fight in a division, in an era like Ali’s. Doesn’t make tham weak.

Archie Moore was coming up from LHW to fight Marciano.

You are misunderstanding what I wrote. I am not comparing those fighters to the seventies. The ultimate measure of a fighter is not the skills they have shown. The ultimate measure is the level of the competition they have faced.

Ali, Frazier, Foreman were not just great fighters whose paths crossed at varying times in their careers. The uniqueness of that early seventies era is that the peak of all three fighters careers coincided. None of the losses those three suffered can be excused with “well he was over the hill then” or “he was an inexperienced up and comer then”.

Ali was supposed to be getting old and was damaged from his wars with Frazier when he beat Foreman. Frazier was the undisputed, undefeated, heavyweight champion who defeated Ali when Foreman demolished him. Ali beat Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, three of the scariest fighters ever.

Compare the seventies era to the Tyson, Holyfield, Lewis era. When Evander Holyfield beat Mike Tyson, Iron Mike had been in self destruct mode for several years and was not at his best. When Lewis beat Tyson, Iron Mike was even more off his game.

Compare to the seventies

Tyson was a great fighter. I think if you took a twenty year old Tyson and swapped him in for Ali in the first fight with Frazier and it would have been Tysons best fight because they would have been a close match. But Frazier would not have been intimidated and Tyson did not do well against fighters who were not intimidated by him. So I think Frazier would have beat him.

Swap a twenty year old Tyson for Frazier against Foreman and George would have beat Tyson just like Frazier maybe worse. Because Tyson would get scared, didn’t do well against fighters he couldn’t intimidate and Foreman was the Scariest fighter ever.

Tyson Vs Mohammad Ali. Ali had better skills, Foreman couldn’t hurt him enough to beat him and if Foreman couldn’t intimidate Ali, Tyson never would. Tyson would have been another great fighter that Ali beat.

Put Holyfield or Lewis against the early 70’s Ali, Frazier, Foreman, and they would be facing better fighters than the version of Mike Tyson they beat. It would be some great boxing action.

You are totally correct bro. That era was way more fierce and interesting. Everything about boxing has totally changed today. It seems more and more about money and less and less about fighting. This is why UFC is grabbing younger faces as fans. Boxing has totally changed and it is rare to see fighters that are even comparable to boxers of earlier eras.

Even the 80s when boxing was starting to really change, the fighters were still GREAT. There was so much talent in almost every division. The 90s we had another heavyweight boom with tyson, holyfield and lewis…but has you mentioned its not comparable to ali, frazier and foreman.

Tyson , holyfield lewis…it seems as though their paths crossed at all the wrong times. I feel like the values of most pro boxers today are totally fucked. Floyd Mayweather… everyone likes to talk about how hes some superhuman…he isn’t a portion of the man Arturo Gatti is…however many of you will say he is because he beat him.

Ali was real fast for a heavyweight, had great skills, but he also didn’t mind getting hit. It’s apparent Mayweather cannot stand being hit. Please noone compare our era of boxing to earlier ones…it seems to get worse and worse over the years.[/quote]

Boxing is a different business today. There are several belts, more weightclasses. Some say the multiple belts have made things worse. That is true if you wants to see a unified champ. Or having the best guys fight each other all the time. You could say that that having multiple belts means giving more boxers a chance to make money. Just having a belt means they will make much more money that waiting inline to fight one champ.

I don’t have an issue with the greatness of Ali, Frazier and Foreman. Though it seems that people are willing to take away from other HW fighters greatness in other eras because they didn’t fight in the 70s. I agree that fighting and beating great comp is the definition of greatness. Though I think it isn’t the only way to define greatness.

I think that a prime Tyson, 85-89 Tyson would have put up a great fight with any HW in history. He definitely had the ability to do that. I think Ali takes a decision most of the time, but Tyson had faster hands than Frazier and power in both fists, and threw in combinations, with great head movenment, great footwork.

He also could take a punch. Frazier and Norton beat Ali, a few other guys with alot less ability gave Ali fits. So I can’t discount Tyson winning that fight. Losing Rooney was probably the end of his prime as a boxer.

Floyd Mayweather is phenomenol. I am not a fan of how he managed his career. I thought he could have done more to get better fights. Still if you watch Mayweather and still say he isn’t great, well then you don’t know boxing.

I also think some revisionist history is taking place with Ali. Ali was amazing prior to being suspended. After that he fought differently. He had to take a punch since he didn’t use his feet much anymore. He had an unorthodox style. Skills? Mayweather has more skills. Ali didn’t win on great technical boxing skills. The goal in boxing is to not get hit and hit your opponent.

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Tyson might have had more versatility than Frazier but Tyson didn’t have the mental toughness to endure adversity like those old fighters. Tyson had an easier life.

One of Tysons most important weapons is that guys were afraid of him. Then when he finally met that one guy who wasn’t going to let intimidation defeat him Tyson was finished as a fighter. After Buster Gouglas won Tyson lost his aura of invincibility.

A true warrior will take an ass kicking and not be destroyed by it. Ali lost to Frazier but still came back and beat him twice after that. Ali also beat Foreman, in one of the greatest fights ever.

Frazier got an unholy beatdown from Foreman. But he came back and fought two wars with Ali after that which were legendary. And he faced Foreman again.

Foreman lost his aura of scary invincibility to Ali, then over a decade later came back regained his title and became the oldest champ ever.

After the Oscar De LaHoya fight I would have to say Floyd Mayweather is overrated. Before the fight Mayweather was talking all kinds of trash that he couldn’t deliver on.

Mayweather said De LaHoya was nothing but a bitch and he was going to kick his ass. Then what does Mayweather do? He spends twelve rounds back pedaling away from “a bitch” who was going to get his “ass kicked”. While De LaHoya spent twelve rounds taking the fight to Mayweather like a man. Mayweather did not deserve to win that fight.

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
facko wrote:

You are totally correct bro. That era was way more fierce and interesting. Everything about boxing has totally changed today. It seems more and more about money and less and less about fighting. This is why UFC is grabbing younger faces as fans.

Boxing has totally changed and it is rare to see fighters that are even comparable to boxers of earlier eras. Even the 80s when boxing was starting to really change, the fighters were still GREAT. There was so much talent in almost every division.

The 90s we had another heavyweight boom with tyson, holyfield and lewis…but has you mentioned its not comparable to ali, frazier and foreman. Tyson , holyfield lewis…it seems as though their paths crossed at all the wrong times.

I feel like the values of most pro boxers today are totally fucked. Floyd Mayweather…everyone likes to talk about how hes some superhuman…he isn’t a portion of the man Arturo Gatti is…however many of you will say he is because he beat him.

Ali was real fast for a heavyweight, had great skills, but he also didn’t mind getting hit. It’s apparent Mayweather cannot stand being hit. Please noone compare our era of boxing to earlier ones…it seems to get worse and worse over the years.

You don’t box, do you?

Nearly everything in this post is wrong, especially the part about Pretty Boy.

He’s the best technical boxer… well, he may be the best ever. I’ve never seen anyone come close.

Ali “didn’t mind getting hit” because he was a heavyweight, and they simply can’t move as fast as lighter guys.

And you’re measuring manhood by boxing styles? C’mon. Arturo Gatti is one of my favorite fighters of all time because he had heart… but let’s face it, he didn’t have a ton of talent. He worked through that.

To say Mayweather is less of a man because he’s a counterpuncher instead of a brawler is insane. Not to mention the beating (and it was just that- an absolutely unfair beating) that he put on Gatti.

If you don’t think that Micky Ward (heart), Kelly Pavlik (power and KO %), Floyd Mayeather (skills and speed), RJJ (speed, power, and dominance for 15 years), Manny Pacquaio (most powerful lightweight I’ve seen) compare to the boxers of old, than you’re sadly mistaken. Ward-Gatti or Corrales-Castillo can compare to Hagler- Hearns.

I hate people who get this nostalgia bullshit going… it’s simply not true. Everyone wants to believe that back in the day, guys were tougher, faster, smarter… when in reality, it’s about the same as it ever was.
[/quote]

It’s not the same…you know boxing is different. And for the record I DO BOX. Btw…Gatti actually had very good boxing talent…and I’m sure you have watched his fights, so I don’t know how you can’t see that. When he wanted to box he could.

Mayweather beat the shit out of him after a career of wars…he couldn’t even make 140 anymore. That’s not to say he wouldn’t beat Gatti in prime…he probably would. I hate to break it to you though…Mayweathers boxing skills are much overhyped…he isn’t the best thing since sliced bread. Now flame away.

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[quote]Sifu wrote:
Tyson might have had more versatility than Frazier but Tyson didn’t have the mental toughness to endure adversity like those old fighters. Tyson had an easier life.

One of Tysons most important weapons is that guys were afraid of him. Then when he finally met that one guy who wasn’t going to let intimidation defeat him Tyson was finished as a fighter. After Buster Gouglas won Tyson lost his aura of invincibility.

A true warrior will take an ass kicking and not be destroyed by it. Ali lost to Frazier but still came back and beat him twice after that. Ali also beat Foreman, in one of the greatest fights ever.

Frazier got an unholy beatdown from Foreman. But he came back and fought two wars with Ali after that which were legendary. And he faced Foreman again.

Foreman lost his aura of scary invincibility to Ali, then over a decade later came back regained his title and became the oldest champ ever.

After the Oscar De LaHoya fight I would have to say Floyd Mayweather is overrated. Before the fight Mayweather was talking all kinds of trash that he couldn’t deliver on.

Mayweather said De LaHoya was nothing but a bitch and he was going to kick his ass. Then what does Mayweather do? He spends twelve rounds back pedaling away from “a bitch” who was going to get his “ass kicked”. While De LaHoya spent twelve rounds taking the fight to Mayweather like a man. Mayweather did not deserve to win that fight.[/quote]

I think Tyson was done before the Douglas fight. After he lost Rooney he had little defense and didn’t put his punches together. Was Tyson frustrated because he was mentally weak or was he frustrated because he could’t do what he used to do and what he had left wasn’t going to win fights?

Guys who don’t train and do what they are supposed to do are going to get frustrated in a fight. Whatever you want to say Tyson, he went out on his shield. He knew he was gonna get a beating and went out there and took it.

A true warrior does not mean he won’t get destroyed by an epic beating. Those two things are not mutual. Fernando Vargas was a warrior but he was never the same after Trinidad.

I think guys these days(not all of them) have too many fights before stepping up in comp. BUt these guys have great coaches and they feel that is the best way. A horrific beating at an early stage of ones career is avoided.

Guys who are Olympic medalists are usually on the fast track. Lots of amateur experience is important. Ali had that. Still I don’t know Ali’s first ten opponents. He had Archie Moore somewhere in his first 15.

Up and coming guys getting old former champs is like a right of passage in boxing. So even back in the day guys were built up. Getting that experience and confidence is extremely important.

Mayweather gets alot of hate. He has skills. I think those skills would have translated into any era. He would not have had a perfect record of course, but at LW I don’t see why anyone would say he could never have won a title.

Hate the business of boxing for creating this environment. But calling boxers overrated because they didn’t fight in the 60s, 70, 80s lacks perspective I think.