T Nation

Job's Children


#1

Job had ten children. God gave Satan permission to test Job's righteousness. Satan in turn has his children killed. God rewards Job with a new and better family. I am obviously summarizing here and am no biblical expert, but why did God not care about Job's children? Why did he give Satan permission to kill them to settle a bet with Satan?


#2

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Job had ten children. God gave Satan permission to test Job’s righteousness. Satan in turn has his children killed. God rewards Job with a new and better family. I am obviously summarizing here and am no biblical expert, but why did God not care about Job’s children? Why did he give Satan permission to kill them to settle a bet with Satan? [/quote]

We’re talking about a deity who can destroy entire galaxies.

He’s gonna lose sleep over ten Sumerian kids?


#3

Especially if those Sumerian Kids went directly to Heaven (why WOULDN’T they btw?)…The main problem here is people put
the utmost, grandiose importance on this VERY short life which Scripture compares to fuckin’ water vapor anyway, that people utterly
fail to see the bigger picture…the much bigger picture of eternal life.

One doesn’t own one’s ‘‘body’’ anyway…God does, 100%, and IF you get that, you just need to surrender and humble yourself
to the fact he didn’t forget to make you as an living being after he made the innumerable
NAMED stars and millions of Planets…think about it, he didn’t forget to make you as an individual…you are loved but
tomorrow is not promised to you here, so be grateful you exist in the first place because it’s where you
ultimately end up that really matters, and at least in Christianity that’s completely your choice, not his.

There are some ‘interpretations’/explanations to the Job Story as to what it means…I’ve heard a few,
but I’m no theologian by any means to dissect it all, yet…The Bible is literally a lifetimes’ worth
of study, and then some.


#4

They were guaranteed a place in heaven, so god knew that they would be in a better place any ways?


#5

When I first read the heading, I thought it was about Steve Job’s kids…

Mufasa


#6

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
Job had ten children. God gave Satan permission to test Job’s righteousness. Satan in turn has his children killed. God rewards Job with a new and better family. I am obviously summarizing here and am no biblical expert, but why did God not care about Job’s children? Why did he give Satan permission to kill them to settle a bet with Satan? [/quote]

We’re talking about a deity who can destroy entire galaxies.

He’s gonna lose sleep over ten Sumerian kids?[/quote]

Over proving a point and winning a bet? I guess not.


#7

[quote]Karado wrote:
Especially if those Sumerian Kids went directly to Heaven (why WOULDN’T they btw?)…The main problem here is people put
the utmost, grandiose importance on this VERY short life which Scripture compares to fuckin’ water vapor anyway, that people utterly
fail to see the bigger picture…the much bigger picture of eternal life.
[/quote]

Well that’s nice that all children that god gives satan permission to slay go to heaven. I heard all dogs go to heaven too. Unless they have rabies.

[quote]
One doesn’t own one’s ‘‘body’’ anyway…God does, 100%, and IF you get that, you just need to surrender and humble yourself
to the fact he didn’t forget to make you as an living being after he made the innumerable
NAMED stars and millions of Planets…think about it, he didn’t forget to make you as an individual…you are loved but
tomorrow is not promised to you here, so be grateful you exist in the first place because it’s where you
ultimately end up that really matters, and at least in Christianity that’s completely your choice, not his.

There are some ‘interpretations’/explanations to the Job Story as to what it means…I’ve heard a few,
but I’m no theologian by any means to dissect it all, yet…The Bible is literally a lifetimes’ worth
of study, and then some.[/quote]

I am genuinely interested in hearing some interpretations and explanations about the meaning of the story.


#8

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
When I first read the heading, I thought it was about Steve Job’s kids…

Mufasa[/quote]

When I first read it I was HOPING it would be…instead we’re going to get another religious discussion thread.


#9

[quote]Karado wrote:
Especially if those Sumerian Kids went directly to Heaven (why WOULDN’T they btw?)…The main problem here is people put
the utmost, grandiose importance on this VERY short life which Scripture compares to fuckin’ water vapor anyway, that people utterly
fail to see the bigger picture…the much bigger picture of eternal life.

One doesn’t own one’s ‘‘body’’ anyway…God does, 100%, and IF you get that, you just need to surrender and humble yourself
to the fact he didn’t forget to make you as an living being after he made the innumerable
NAMED stars and millions of Planets…think about it, he didn’t forget to make you as an individual…you are loved but
tomorrow is not promised to you here, so be grateful you exist in the first place because it’s where you
ultimately end up that really matters, and at least in Christianity that’s completely your choice, not his.

There are some ‘interpretations’/explanations to the Job Story as to what it means…I’ve heard a few,
but I’m no theologian by any means to dissect it all, yet…The Bible is literally a lifetimes’ worth
of study, and then some.[/quote]

First off, these are adult children we’re talking about here. Job was an old man at the time, and the “kids” were adults who held feasts with their sisters and their families. No word about whether they too were righteous, so a guaranteed place in heaven is not a foregone conclusion, unless one believes that Job’s burnt offerings assured them this place. A Christian would say that Job’s vicarious sacrifice on behalf of his children wiped away their sins, much like God’s sacrifice of his son vicariously wiped away the sins of an entire species, but that does nothing for the servants and friends who were also present at the hall when it got leveled by the fire of God.

Which brings up another point. Satan didn’t kill anyone in this story. God did. He didn’t “allow it to happen”, he did it himself.

Last point: if all children who are killed, by act of God or otherwise, are assured a place in heaven, then why the fuss over abortion? If God owns the bodies of the unborn, and is happy to usher their souls into a “better place”, then surely the freeing of an innocent soul from a temporary body so it can flit up to be with its creator should be pleasing to God.

Over to you.


#10

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Especially if those Sumerian Kids went directly to Heaven (why WOULDN’T they btw?)…The main problem here is people put
the utmost, grandiose importance on this VERY short life which Scripture compares to fuckin’ water vapor anyway, that people utterly
fail to see the bigger picture…the much bigger picture of eternal life.

One doesn’t own one’s ‘‘body’’ anyway…God does, 100%, and IF you get that, you just need to surrender and humble yourself
to the fact he didn’t forget to make you as an living being after he made the innumerable
NAMED stars and millions of Planets…think about it, he didn’t forget to make you as an individual…you are loved but
tomorrow is not promised to you here, so be grateful you exist in the first place because it’s where you
ultimately end up that really matters, and at least in Christianity that’s completely your choice, not his.

There are some ‘interpretations’/explanations to the Job Story as to what it means…I’ve heard a few,
but I’m no theologian by any means to dissect it all, yet…The Bible is literally a lifetimes’ worth
of study, and then some.[/quote]

First off, these are adult children we’re talking about here. Job was an old man at the time, and the “kids” were adults who held feasts with their sisters and their families. No word about whether they too were righteous, so a guaranteed place in heaven is not a foregone conclusion, unless one believes that Job’s burnt offerings assured them this place. A Christian would say that Job’s vicarious sacrifice on behalf of his children wiped away their sins, much like God’s sacrifice of his son vicariously wiped away the sins of an entire species, but that does nothing for the servants and friends who were also present at the hall when it got leveled by the fire of God.

Which brings up another point. Satan didn’t kill anyone in this story. God did. He didn’t “allow it to happen”, he did it himself.

Last point: if all children who are killed, by act of God or otherwise, are assured a place in heaven, then why the fuss over abortion? If God owns the bodies of the unborn, and is happy to usher their souls into a “better place”, then surely the freeing of an innocent soul from a temporary body so it can flit up to be with its creator should be pleasing to God.

Over to you.
[/quote]

In the old testament Jews are Gods chosen, and guaranteed a place in heaven (I could be wrong though. There may be a couple of clauses that can prevent that, I don’t know.)


#11

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Last point: if all children who are killed, by act of God or otherwise, are assured a place in heaven, then why the fuss over abortion? If God owns the bodies of the unborn, and is happy to usher their souls into a “better place”, then surely the freeing of an innocent soul from a temporary body so it can flit up to be with its creator should be pleasing to God.

Over to you.
[/quote]
Original sin?


#12

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Especially if those Sumerian Kids went directly to Heaven (why WOULDN’T they btw?)…The main problem here is people put
the utmost, grandiose importance on this VERY short life which Scripture compares to fuckin’ water vapor anyway, that people utterly
fail to see the bigger picture…the much bigger picture of eternal life.

One doesn’t own one’s ‘‘body’’ anyway…God does, 100%, and IF you get that, you just need to surrender and humble yourself
to the fact he didn’t forget to make you as an living being after he made the innumerable
NAMED stars and millions of Planets…think about it, he didn’t forget to make you as an individual…you are loved but
tomorrow is not promised to you here, so be grateful you exist in the first place because it’s where you
ultimately end up that really matters, and at least in Christianity that’s completely your choice, not his.

There are some ‘interpretations’/explanations to the Job Story as to what it means…I’ve heard a few,
but I’m no theologian by any means to dissect it all, yet…The Bible is literally a lifetimes’ worth
of study, and then some.[/quote]

First off, these are adult children we’re talking about here. Job was an old man at the time, and the “kids” were adults who held feasts with their sisters and their families. No word about whether they too were righteous, so a guaranteed place in heaven is not a foregone conclusion, unless one believes that Job’s burnt offerings assured them this place. A Christian would say that Job’s vicarious sacrifice on behalf of his children wiped away their sins, much like God’s sacrifice of his son vicariously wiped away the sins of an entire species, but that does nothing for the servants and friends who were also present at the hall when it got leveled by the fire of God.

Which brings up another point. Satan didn’t kill anyone in this story. God did. He didn’t “allow it to happen”, he did it himself.

Last point: if all children who are killed, by act of God or otherwise, are assured a place in heaven, then why the fuss over abortion? If God owns the bodies of the unborn, and is happy to usher their souls into a “better place”, then surely the freeing of an innocent soul from a temporary body so it can flit up to be with its creator should be pleasing to God.

Over to you.
[/quote]

In the old testament Jews are Gods chosen, and guaranteed a place in heaven (I could be wrong though. There may be a couple of clauses that can prevent that, I don’t know.)

[/quote]

Job was not a Jew. He wasn’t even a Hebrew. He was Aramean, from what is now Syria. If he existed at all. A number of rabbinical scholars are of the opinion that he did not.


#13

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Last point: if all children who are killed, by act of God or otherwise, are assured a place in heaven, then why the fuss over abortion? If God owns the bodies of the unborn, and is happy to usher their souls into a “better place”, then surely the freeing of an innocent soul from a temporary body so it can flit up to be with its creator should be pleasing to God.

Over to you.
[/quote]
Original sin? [/quote]

There haven’t been any original sins for quite a while. Most people are sadly unoriginal when it comes to sinning. All the good sins have already been done.


#14

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
When I first read the heading, I thought it was about Steve Job’s kids…

Mufasa[/quote]

When I first read it I was HOPING it would be…instead we’re going to get another religious discussion thread. [/quote]

I don’t see that as a bad thing. Do you? at least this thread is Labeled religiously instead of invading a political or science thread.


#15

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Last point: if all children who are killed, by act of God or otherwise, are assured a place in heaven, then why the fuss over abortion? If God owns the bodies of the unborn, and is happy to usher their souls into a “better place”, then surely the freeing of an innocent soul from a temporary body so it can flit up to be with its creator should be pleasing to God.

Over to you.
[/quote]
Original sin? [/quote]

There haven’t been any original sins for quite a while. Most people are sadly unoriginal when it comes to sinning. All the good sins have already been done. [/quote]

There were only seven in the first place anyway. And Cain took Wrath and Envy to a whole new level with that cliff story. Hog.


#16

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Last point: if all children who are killed, by act of God or otherwise, are assured a place in heaven, then why the fuss over abortion? If God owns the bodies of the unborn, and is happy to usher their souls into a “better place”, then surely the freeing of an innocent soul from a temporary body so it can flit up to be with its creator should be pleasing to God.

Over to you.
[/quote]
Original sin? [/quote]

There haven’t been any original sins for quite a while. Most people are sadly unoriginal when it comes to sinning. All the good sins have already been done. [/quote]

There were only seven in the first place anyway. And Cain took Wrath and Envy to a whole new level with that cliff story. Hog.[/quote]

There was only one: disobedience. The seven deadly sins are all offshoots of Pride, which leads to disobedience.


#17

[shameless self-promotion]

Not that the seven deadly sins are always a bad thing…

[/shameless self-promotion]


#18

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.


#19

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]H factor wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
When I first read the heading, I thought it was about Steve Job’s kids…

Mufasa[/quote]

When I first read it I was HOPING it would be…instead we’re going to get another religious discussion thread. [/quote]

I don’t see that as a bad thing. Do you? at least this thread is Labeled religiously instead of invading a political or science thread.[/quote]

Well first off I’m not a believer, but that really doesn’t have much to do with my opinion on this. We have a TON of religious themed threads on the first two pages and the forum is titled Politics and World Issues. Maybe a religious discussions forum would suit this place so people could hash this stuff out in an area that wasn’t PWI. At the very least almost all of these tend to be not politics and not world issues.

Just my .02.


#20

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
Especially if those Sumerian Kids went directly to Heaven (why WOULDN’T they btw?)…The main problem here is people put
the utmost, grandiose importance on this VERY short life which Scripture compares to fuckin’ water vapor anyway, that people utterly
fail to see the bigger picture…the much bigger picture of eternal life.

One doesn’t own one’s ‘‘body’’ anyway…God does, 100%, and IF you get that, you just need to surrender and humble yourself
to the fact he didn’t forget to make you as an living being after he made the innumerable
NAMED stars and millions of Planets…think about it, he didn’t forget to make you as an individual…you are loved but
tomorrow is not promised to you here, so be grateful you exist in the first place because it’s where you
ultimately end up that really matters, and at least in Christianity that’s completely your choice, not his.

There are some ‘interpretations’/explanations to the Job Story as to what it means…I’ve heard a few,
but I’m no theologian by any means to dissect it all, yet…The Bible is literally a lifetimes’ worth
of study, and then some.[/quote]

First off, these are adult children we’re talking about here. Job was an old man at the time, and the “kids” were adults who held feasts with their sisters and their families. No word about whether they too were righteous, so a guaranteed place in heaven is not a foregone conclusion, unless one believes that Job’s burnt offerings assured them this place. A Christian would say that Job’s vicarious sacrifice on behalf of his children wiped away their sins, much like God’s sacrifice of his son vicariously wiped away the sins of an entire species, but that does nothing for the servants and friends who were also present at the hall when it got leveled by the fire of God.

Which brings up another point. Satan didn’t kill anyone in this story. God did. He didn’t “allow it to happen”, he did it himself.

Last point: if all children who are killed, by act of God or otherwise, are assured a place in heaven, then why the fuss over abortion? If God owns the bodies of the unborn, and is happy to usher their souls into a “better place”, then surely the freeing of an innocent soul from a temporary body so it can flit up to be with its creator should be pleasing to God.

Over to you.
[/quote]

You’re a smart guy but you don’t necessarily shine with your theological insights here.

The story of Job is a complex one and he who wishes to honestly dissect it would do well to avoid approaching it with a sneering tone.

Just my advice. Do with it what you will.[/quote]

Which of the points I mentioned above specifically do you disagree with?

That the children of Job were adults?
That the burnt offerings Job gave bought forgiveness for his children’s sins, but maybe not for those of their slaves, servants and guests?
That a Christian would identify instinctually with the idea of vicarious sacrifice as atonement for sin?
That God, and not Satan, was the actor in causing Job’s sufferings?

All else were rhetorical questions aimed at Karado, an are only incidental to the story of Job.

But do you have an opinion on those as well?