Jiu Jitsu in Real Life Situations

Let me clarify a bit by saying that the self defense aspect is from standing and it certainly gets the guy away from you. Many times with broken limbs or severe pain, allowing you to escape. The option is yours to follow him to the ground for grappling if you want to. Jiu Jitsu is the real version of Judo so there are tons of techniques from standing and deflecting punches, employing some strikes and throws.

I know I will catch flack for comparing Judo and Jiu jitsu but when you break the language down that is what is means. just like Kendo and Ken jitsu. Ken Jitsu is the real thing using real swords. I think nowdays more and more focus is on the ground aspect of Jiu jitsu. If you attend a seminar with Royce Gracie you will do lots of self defense type training.

Are we doing this again? Really guys?

Fine. I will grab a purse and start swinging too.

1.) The OP’s question is absolutely too broad to answer. I will say that the closer any “fight” is to early MMA/a duel the better it seems to get for BJJ. BJJ practitioners have a laudable history of doing well in a “1 on 1” match. Not really “no rules” since the keeping it one on one thing is a rule.

2.) I tend to view the “weak against weapons” or exposed against “multiple” opponents as a bit of a canard to the “reality” or “street application” question. My reasoning is that weapons were invented for a reason.

Give someone who is not much of a threat a blade, club, or firearm and they are a much, much, harder problem to solve. Any style, or thought process, that deals with weapon bearing attackers has to come to grips with the truth that if you are unarmed and they aren’t you need to be a hell of a lot luckier or more skilled then the bad actor. This goes for every art, not just grappling. Someone holding a box cutter doesn’t need to have the same mastery of balance, angles, and weight transfer that good boxers develop in order to really fuck you up. In many cases the best answer is to un ass the area or to get your hands on YOUR own weapon.

Having to go hands on with more than one person at a time is nightmare. It is a survivable one if, again, you are far better or luckier than the group. The plan of clinching and grappling one dude out of three to the ground is not a great one, but not a lot of great plans are going to abound. Good tactics will likely be to a.) un ass the area, b.) failing that, try to position yourself in relation to them and the environment so that only one can attack at a time, c.) get YOUR weapon into play (you do have one if you are planning on fighting off a crowd, right?) e.) at the vary least keeping your feet under you and staying mobile. If the guys who are “bad” enough to bring a bunch of friends are also “bad” enough to be armed it gets pretty bleak.

3.) If we accept the notion that you do not want to BE on the ground in a fight, and if we hit the ground we want up, RIGHT FUCKING NOW, where would we find skills to address those issues. In my experience the guys who are hardest to put down and hold down ARE the grapplers. I see a lot of value in BJJ simply because it can be used to keep yourself out of this “bad situation”. Of course my answer to people who focus on being set upon by armed or multiple attackers is that arming yourself and becoming proficient is a far better plan than going empty handed.

CLOSING:
FighinIrish is pretty good at drumming up Kelly McCann videos. I really like his knife and hand gun material. I think BJJ is not a bad “back up” for those skill sets. Neither are a lot of other things. Figure out what problems are your biggest concern and train something that gives you tools to solve problems.

My opinion only.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]humble wrote:
bjj dude will have his nuts ripped in half by the powerful grip the powerlifter has. Either that or his mouth torn open. You think if a monkey put a triangle on me in the street I’ll just tap or say “I give up?” lmao… that’s if my mates don’t kick the fuck out of him before I tear his face off.
Fucken get real man.[/quote]

Dude, if a monkey (thinking chimp or orangutan) attacked you you’d probably get your own nuts ripped off, along with your face. Those things are viscious. :wink:

In all seriousness though, it’s still too open ended of a question to answer.

Also, takedown skills seem to be more hit or miss among BJJ artists. Some are quite good and some are pretty poor (basically choose to start most grappling matches in a butt scoot position or have to revert to pulling guard to get it to the ground). If the BJJ guy couldn’t get it to the ground, he’s probably going to lose to the bigger stronger fighter. And, things like pulling guard are VERY bad ideas on hard surfaces like pavement (as are things like triangle chokes, or heck even mount isn’t all that great of a position on pavement, let alone gravel).

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
bjj dude will have his nuts ripped in half by the powerful grip the powerlifter has. Either that or his mouth torn open. You think if a monkey put a triangle on me in the street I’ll just tap or say “I give up?” lmao… that’s if my mates don’t kick the fuck out of him before I tear his face off.
Fucken get real man.[/quote]

Dude, if a monkey (thinking chimp or orangutan) attacked you you’d probably get your own nuts ripped off, along with your face. Those things are viscious. :wink:

In all seriousness though, it’s still too open ended of a question to answer.

Also, takedown skills seem to be more hit or miss among BJJ artists. Some are quite good and some are pretty poor (basically choose to start most grappling matches in a butt scoot position or have to revert to pulling guard to get it to the ground). If the BJJ guy couldn’t get it to the ground, he’s probably going to lose to the bigger stronger fighter. And, things like pulling guard are VERY bad ideas on hard surfaces like pavement (as are things like triangle chokes, or heck even mount isn’t all that great of a position on pavement, let alone gravel).[/quote]

The thing is that in a self-defense situation, in which a TD is an option that won’t get you killed, you probably don’t have to have the TD skills of Kurt Angle to get the other guy down.

Also, too many people judge BJJ by sport comps and mma. MMA is not, in spite of what the UFC says, real. One can find old school Vale Tudo matches from Brazil to see something much closer to a real fight and how BJJ functions in that context.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

As far as “no rules”: BJJ does not leave you exposed unless you are dealing with more than one opponent or weapons. It was developed to be applied under the conditions of no rules. Of course that aspect is not as stressed in many schools anymore but traditionally BJJ has standing techniques and striking (both on the ground and on the feet). [/quote]

THIS IS NOT TRUE.

BJJ, just by the close proximity of your bodies, leaves you open to all kinds of shit that is not taught in BJJ classes.

Maybe if someone, somewhere, is teaching a sort of combat JJ with strikes that relies on standing more and keeping the other guy’s body AWAY from you, I’d agree, but the idea of grappling in any capacity inevitably leaves you open to broken fingers, biting, eye gouging, and all sorts of other nasty shit that is not regularly taught as BJJ.

Hell, biting alone is enough to nullify half the shit that you get taught as “self-defense” in a BJJ class.[/quote]

You do know in Brazil they had something known as Vale Tudo? How about the Gracie Challenge? On the In Action tapes those fights were anything goes at times. The idea that the moves you mention can only be done by the other guy also reveals your ignorance. [/quote]

Yea yea. We’ve done this before. But you’ll never understand the difference between sport fighting and streetfighting until it happens to you

I just hope it ain’t too painful when you learn.

With that I bow out.

With all due respect to the members who post on the combat forum:

Having spent the last 7 years in Iraq and Afghanistan, I can tell you that once you are placed in a COMBAT situation, either in the theater of operations or the back alley of any major city, you will do anything and use any weapon you can, to kill your attacker. Period. Anything else is just waxing theoretical bullshit.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

The thing is that in a self-defense situation, in which a TD is an option that won’t get you killed, you probably don’t have to have the TD skills of Kurt Angle to get the other guy down.
[/quote]

This is true, but we are talking about trying to take down someone who is much bigger, much stronger, and athletic (I realize it’s a total hypothetical). Not to mention who is probably going to be striking you and using anything else at his disposal to hurt/stop you in the process, and on a realistic surface (which still hasn’t been defined and could make a lot of difference either way). That’s going to take a fairly high level of takedown skills to achieve.

And like I said, some BJJ schools do a good job of teaching takedowns, while others do not.

I have never, nor will I ever say that the UFC is real. It’s a sport, no question about it. Even the old school Vale Tudo matches were not real. Even 1 rule makes it a controlled environment, and therefore not real.

Referee= not real, padded floor=not real, only two people are allowed to get involved=not real, no weapons=not real, fight starts from opposite ends of ring/cage/fighting area=not real, fight starts which both fighters are ready and told to “go”=not real, designated time limit=not real, predesignated time, place, and venue=not real, not to mention all of the techniques, targets, and tactics that are outlawed in today’s versions of MMA.

This is really a silly thread/question because it’s completely hypothetical, and the real answer is that who wins is going to depend on the individuals in question (people fight, not systems), and the specifics of the situation. None of these need to know details can be gathered from this hugely hypothetical scenario.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Dude, if a monkey (thinking chimp or orangutan) attacked you you’d probably get your own nuts ripped off, along with your face. Those things are viscious. :wink:
[/quote]

Lol…

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

The thing is that in a self-defense situation, in which a TD is an option that won’t get you killed, you probably don’t have to have the TD skills of Kurt Angle to get the other guy down.

[/quote]

Add a little randomness like tripping over your own shoelaces, a tree root protuding through the floor, some rough cement, a random object on the floor or a passer by who get’s his thrills by joining in siding with your opponent and you could quite easily see how a pro may lose out in a street situation.

[quote]idaho wrote:
With all due respect to the members who post on the combat forum:

Having spent the last 7 years in Iraq and Afghanistan, I can tell you that once you are placed in a COMBAT situation, either in the theater of operations or the back alley of any major city, you will do anything and use any weapon you can, to kill your attacker. Period. Anything else is just waxing theoretical bullshit. [/quote]

Amen!

Put a 100kg boxing bag in front of me and I am the meanest mother fucker around. Put an epileptic like junkie half my weight high off the sky and I reckon I’ll be owned in under a minute!

Too many randoms and variables and peoples fight or flight cannot be contained to be measurable.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

The thing is that in a self-defense situation, in which a TD is an option that won’t get you killed, you probably don’t have to have the TD skills of Kurt Angle to get the other guy down.
[/quote]

This is true, but we are talking about trying to take down someone who is much bigger, much stronger, and athletic (I realize it’s a total hypothetical). Not to mention who is probably going to be striking you and using anything else at his disposal to hurt/stop you in the process, and on a realistic surface (which still hasn’t been defined and could make a lot of difference either way). That’s going to take a fairly high level of takedown skills to achieve.

And like I said, some BJJ schools do a good job of teaching takedowns, while others do not.

I have never, nor will I ever say that the UFC is real. It’s a sport, no question about it. Even the old school Vale Tudo matches were not real. Even 1 rule makes it a controlled environment, and therefore not real.

Referee= not real, padded floor=not real, only two people are allowed to get involved=not real, no weapons=not real, fight starts from opposite ends of ring/cage/fighting area=not real, fight starts which both fighters are ready and told to “go”=not real, designated time limit=not real, predesignated time, place, and venue=not real, not to mention all of the techniques, targets, and tactics that are outlawed in today’s versions of MMA.

This is really a silly thread/question because it’s completely hypothetical, and the real answer is that who wins is going to depend on the individuals in question (people fight, not systems), and the specifics of the situation. None of these need to know details can be gathered from this hugely hypothetical scenario. [/quote]
I wasn’t being critical of you as I find you are one of the more sensible posters here. I’m just saying that before someone criticizes BJJ they should actually know something about it. The idea that the people who developed it did not factor in as many variables as they could conceive is wrong. People ask: what about biting? What about headbutts? What about weapons? What about multiple attackers? Ask Rorion Gracie, for example, these questions and he’ll have an answer. It just might not be “use BJJ.”

In short, BJJ as a self-defense system is not just the grappling techniques and limited striking techniques, but also the knowledge of when or if to use them and when to use something else. A BJJ instructor would not tell someone to bring a spoon to a knife fight if they owned a gun. It’s a lot more comprehensive than people know. Situational awareness is part of it. One more example of this is that BJJ includes weapons retention techniques that are taught to police. Not all instructors or schools teach the self-defense aspects, that’s true, but that doesn’t mean none do or that they aren’t part of BJJ.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

In short, BJJ as a self-defense system is not just the grappling techniques and limited striking techniques, but also the knowledge of when or if to use them and when to use something else. A BJJ instructor would not tell someone to bring a spoon to a knife fight if they owned a gun. It’s a lot more comprehensive than people know. Situational awareness is part of it. One more example of this is that BJJ includes weapons retention techniques that are taught to police. Not all instructors or schools teach the self-defense aspects, that’s true, but that doesn’t mean none do or that they aren’t part of BJJ. [/quote]

No, MOST don’t teach anything that remotely resembles those aspects.

So while there may be some that do, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that 19 out of 20 BJJ schools don’t approach teaching anything more than a sport system.

It must be hard to see at night with them rose colored glasses…

wouldnt you think if you went to train at an mma gym and they offered bjj classes it would be bjj geared towards mma?

Personally i think bjj is kinda gay pulling guard with other guys all the time and such but i would like to take a BJJ class that concentrated on takedowns and submitting them more so then the other stuff

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

In short, BJJ as a self-defense system is not just the grappling techniques and limited striking techniques, but also the knowledge of when or if to use them and when to use something else. A BJJ instructor would not tell someone to bring a spoon to a knife fight if they owned a gun. It’s a lot more comprehensive than people know. Situational awareness is part of it. One more example of this is that BJJ includes weapons retention techniques that are taught to police. Not all instructors or schools teach the self-defense aspects, that’s true, but that doesn’t mean none do or that they aren’t part of BJJ. [/quote]

No, MOST don’t teach anything that remotely resembles those aspects.

So while there may be some that do, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that 19 out of 20 BJJ schools don’t approach teaching anything more than a sport system.

It must be hard to see at night with them rose colored glasses…[/quote]
Since this board doesn’t require you to post facts you can say whatever you want without worrying about being on a limb.

The thing to think about here is that if I were attacked by a guy a lot bigger than me, would I be better off being skilled at BJJ? And do I have a chance against a much bigger and stronger guy because of BJJ? I would say the answer to both of those questions is yes.

BJJ is a great martial art that COULD help you escape and possibly prevail in a bad situation.

[quote]humble wrote:
bjj dude will have his nuts ripped in half by the powerful grip the powerlifter has. Either that or his mouth torn open. You think if a monkey put a triangle on me in the street I’ll just tap or say “I give up?” lmao… that’s if my mates don’t kick the fuck out of him before I tear his face off.
Fucken get real man.[/quote]

no, you’d go to sleep. also, i dont think bjj would hurt your chances of winning a street fight. unless you were set on using a flying armbar or something. i think using the sweeps, takedowns, etc. would be good for a streetfight. but stuff like armbars, etc… idk how useful that would be. but just the fact that bjj can teach you to control the other opponent on the ground, has major advantages. as for this situation, i dont know. i would probably put my money on the behemoth.

[quote]Brotha123 wrote:
Hey guys, I was just wondering how effective bjj would be in a street fight. I mean if you come across a strong dude about 5’10 230 squatting and dead lifting over 500 and the guy doing bjj is around 5’8 165, what the outcome would be? Do you think the bigger dude would be screwed?[/quote]

I’m about 5-11, 165lbs. I grappled a 6-3 friend about 50lbs heavier than me who didn’t know any wrestling or BJJ (as for his fitness level, he played hs football and still lifts periodically). I was able to submit him but it was still really tiring. I imagine I might’ve been screwed if ground-and-pound was allowed. But then again, I’m not even remotely close to being some BJJ ace. Overall, I still put my money on the 230lb muscleman.

Since this thread got bumped… True story, I got to roll with Arthur Jones at my old school (315 lb brother to Jon Jones). I’m a reasonably strong guy for 165. There’s a lot of things you take for granted when you face someone significantly stronger or larger than you. I distinctly remember extending for straight ankle lock. He countered by sitting up, flexing his leg and grabbing me so I couldn’t straighten out for the submission.

Basically, a different set of rules applies for grappling really big people. Sweeps and subs that may come easy against people your size may not even be feasible against someone who has a large size/strength advantage over you. I’d also guess it’s hard to prepare for unless you’re regularly rolling with people significantly bigger than you.

Long story short. Never underestimate the power of really strong people.

[quote]Heroic Wolf wrote:
I imagine I might’ve been screwed if ground-and-pound was allowed. [/quote]

People who do BJJ and think it will save them in the street need to drill this line into their heads.

Strong big guy with little fighting skill is basically useless- like a big bag… BJJ style goes for chocking, moves around the body, grabs legs then goes for arm and breaks it… weight matters of course but weight and pure strength without fighting skill isn’t going to take you far… In a MMA ring jiujitsu is probably the most effective, while in a bar or on the street when there are other people, friends of your attacker… jiujitsu isn’t the most effective though… in that kind of situation boxing with quick precise shots and quick move around would be way more effective… if you start wrestling with one guy, it takes longer than throwing three punches on the chin… while you try to break his arm the other guys will start kicking you head… or just some men decide to separate you… lots of things depends on where and with whom you fight… In a military one to one combat again BJJ will be superior than other styles… While nice big muscles built in a gym and drinking protein shakes is impressive for girls, and not for fighters…

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Heroic Wolf wrote:
I imagine I might’ve been screwed if ground-and-pound was allowed. [/quote]

People who do BJJ and think it will save them in the street need to drill this line into their heads.[/quote]

Really? GnP, as well as nut shots, foot stomps, soccer kicks and headbutts were allowed in the early UFCs and before that in VT in Brazil. How did Royce do?