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Jim Wendler on 5-3-1 and MMA

Good read…and perspective from the man himself.

[i]I’ve been asked numerous times to write a book, article or something on how to use 5/3/1 for MMA fighters. Unless I collaborate with someone, a book is probably not going to happen. I believe that in order for anyone to write intelligently about a subject, you have to have competed at the sport at a high level. I mean, if one’s program is that good, that amazing, then why didn’t the expert use it himself for success?

So I write this blog post with a huge asterisk. I am NOT, nor have been, an MMA fighter. Just so we are clear on that:[/i]

Good link, and thanks for posting.

I can only “somewhat agree” about needing to have performed at a high level to coach though.

With that logic Lou Duva and Angelo Dundee would not make the cut for boxing. In MMA Greg Jackson would be out of business as well. If a national Golden Gloves Title doesn’t make the “high level” cut (no international or pro experiance) then Emmanual Steward would be out.

I think I get his point about experts needing to be, well, EXPERT, but the way he words it would seem to indicate that Mike Tyson would be a better coach than Cus D’Amato or that the Diaz brothers would be better served by learning grappling from Ken Shamrock than Caesar Gracie.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Good link, and thanks for posting.

I can only “somewhat agree” about needing to have performed at a high level to coach though.

With that logic Lou Duva and Angelo Dundee would not make the cut for boxing. In MMA Greg Jackson would be out of business as well. If a national Golden Gloves Title doesn’t make the “high level” cut (no international or pro experiance) then Emmanual Steward would be out.

I think I get his point about experts needing to be, well, EXPERT, but the way he words it would seem to indicate that Mike Tyson would be a better coach than Cus D’Amato or that the Diaz brothers would be better served by learning grappling from Ken Shamrock than Caesar Gracie.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Well…yeah…but I think the main point is that he is no MMA expert…and that you should be engrossed into some knowledge of MMA or at least some combative/competitive discipline.

But still…we all know that those “who do” at the highest levels…don’t necessarily make good coaches…but still have the knowledge through experience alone.

I don’t do 5-3-1 simply because I don’t want to mess with charts and percentages and stuff. I’ve done well these past 18-19 years without all of that, so why should I start now? As for the coaching thing, I find more pleasure in coaching than I do in competing. And I only fought at the amateur level.

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Good link, and thanks for posting.

I can only “somewhat agree” about needing to have performed at a high level to coach though.

With that logic Lou Duva and Angelo Dundee would not make the cut for boxing. In MMA Greg Jackson would be out of business as well. If a national Golden Gloves Title doesn’t make the “high level” cut (no international or pro experiance) then Emmanual Steward would be out.

I think I get his point about experts needing to be, well, EXPERT, but the way he words it would seem to indicate that Mike Tyson would be a better coach than Cus D’Amato or that the Diaz brothers would be better served by learning grappling from Ken Shamrock than Caesar Gracie.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

IMO hs is stating he is not familiar enough with everything that is involved that goes into planning a good Template to follow and he believes it takes someone who has been around for awhile to know how to get people to keep progressing as conditioned/stronger fighters.

I mean how good do you think Greg Jackson/Lou Duva etc. were as a coach when they first started? That is all he is saying.

Great post by Jim Wendler. Really, really great post. That hopefully all these fucking new guys that want to workout like Ronnie fucking COleman will read, and absorb because Wendler said it and not me.

[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Good link, and thanks for posting.

I can only “somewhat agree” about needing to have performed at a high level to coach though.

With that logic Lou Duva and Angelo Dundee would not make the cut for boxing. In MMA Greg Jackson would be out of business as well. If a national Golden Gloves Title doesn’t make the “high level” cut (no international or pro experiance) then Emmanual Steward would be out.

I think I get his point about experts needing to be, well, EXPERT, but the way he words it would seem to indicate that Mike Tyson would be a better coach than Cus D’Amato or that the Diaz brothers would be better served by learning grappling from Ken Shamrock than Caesar Gracie.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

IMO hs is stating he is not familiar enough with everything that is involved that goes into planning a good Template to follow and he believes it takes someone who has been around for awhile to know how to get people to keep progressing as conditioned/stronger fighters.

I mean how good do you think Greg Jackson/Lou Duva etc. were as a coach when they first started? That is all he is saying.[/quote]

I don’t have an issue with that, and I also think that is/is close to his intended meaning. The problem is words mean things and he has written multiple times that you have to have played at a high level in order to coach/train. I think Jim Wendler is certainly capable of expressing himself so if I take his words at face value, I can only “somewhat agree”.

For the record I think he is plenty qualified to come up with a strength training template for a fighter and modify it as issues arise. His experience as an athlete, lifter, and strength coach/whatever title he wants to describe what he does is relevant enough that anyone who wants help getting stronger could do well to look him up.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Great post by Jim Wendler. Really, really great post. That hopefully all these fucking new guys that want to workout like Ronnie fucking COleman will read, and absorb because Wendler said it and not me.[/quote]

It is not going to help.

NOT

AT

ALL

“Wendler didn’t mention running in his post, just burpees and battling ropes so that is what a fighter should do for cardio bro.”

Regards,

Robert A

I cant speak for wendler-

but maybe he just means you need some real world matt and ring time
or at least be around it enough- a few year - with many athletes
to see what is going on with the rest of their training.

I can only speak on Judo + wrestling not MMA

I think lots of mma training gets caught up in the timed aspect of the sport
his points like Martin Rooneys are that weight room is for strength work
not conditioning

for the most part in wrestling practice or ‘weight room’ work
they do conditioning style work - so the coach can see it actually gets done.

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Good link, and thanks for posting.

I can only “somewhat agree” about needing to have performed at a high level to coach though.

With that logic Lou Duva and Angelo Dundee would not make the cut for boxing. In MMA Greg Jackson would be out of business as well. If a national Golden Gloves Title doesn’t make the “high level” cut (no international or pro experiance) then Emmanual Steward would be out.

I think I get his point about experts needing to be, well, EXPERT, but the way he words it would seem to indicate that Mike Tyson would be a better coach than Cus D’Amato or that the Diaz brothers would be better served by learning grappling from Ken Shamrock than Caesar Gracie.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]Well the thing with MMA and Jackson is that MMA is such a new sport as an older guy it was not really around when they were in their prime. This is also true for my coach who is in his 50’s now and knows more about MMA than lots of pro fighters I know. World champs included.

this is a great post by Jim and I totally agree with him.

Lift weights (basic compound lifts) to get stronger. Do energy system work to improve the gas tank. And do lots and lots of technique work to be as efficient in your movements as possible.

This is probably a question for Wendler himself but I was wondering if anyone is doing a two day split right now as he suggests for MMA. Looking at my schedule this works better for me and I started to incorporate it this week. It leaves me 3-4 days for training my MMA and two days for lifting.

My question is about doing upper and lower body on the same day for example Bench/Squats, how do you do the accessory stuff do you do the main lifts first and then do all the accessory or do the Bench and those acc. and then Squat and those acc. ?

Also would be curious what types of accessories you guys are doing for MMA or whatever you do. I am doing Incline dumbell press, tricep extensions and chest flys on Bench days Squats I am doing Leg Extension(i know)

Leg curls and barbell lunges. Overhead press days I do lateral raises(front and side) also do shrugs and upright rows. I think I could benefit from different exercises but I do feel pretty strong.

i wonder why in his main lifts of the day he advocates the use of a bench press.

Not saying that I know anything at all but Bench Press is a standard movement that incorporates many upper body muscles. I have noticed many advantages to having a strong bench press.

You do the main lifts first then the accessory work. You don’t want to do one main lift then wear yourself out doing the accessory and then start to do another main lift. You want to be as fresh as possible for the main lifts. You could also probably alternate the accessory work too. Like do one lower body accessory, then one upper body, etc depending on how you want to do it. I just started the other day, so I’m not too sure what accessory work I’m going to be doing. Probably going to try to work in some dips and pullups.

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
This is probably a question for Wendler himself but I was wondering if anyone is doing a two day split right now as he suggests for MMA. Looking at my schedule this works better for me and I started to incorporate it this week. It leaves me 3-4 days for training my MMA and two days for lifting.
[/quote]

I don’t do it exactly as Jim says to - I split four workouts over two weeks instead of doing two main exercises per session.

My log:
https://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/blog_sports_body_training_performance_bodybuilding_log/log_o_the_irish?id=4426206&pageNo=0

Currently I do lower body on Monday, I box on Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday, and do upper body on Friday.

I would not do to main exercises per session because doing upper body work on a Monday or any day where I box afterwards will SERIOUSLY fuck me up and limit my performance for the rest of the week. No joke. It has a HUGE impact on me, and I feel slower and more lethargic for days afteward.

Moving it to Friday fixed all of those problems.

This I don’t know, I’ve often wondered that myself.

[quote]
Also would be curious what types of accessories you guys are doing for MMA or whatever you do. I am doing Incline dumbell press, tricep extensions and chest flys on Bench days Squats I am doing Leg Extension(i know)

Leg curls and barbell lunges. Overhead press days I do lateral raises(front and side) also do shrugs and upright rows. I think I could benefit from different exercises but I do feel pretty strong.[/quote]

You can check my log out, but you’ll see that my assistance work, especially on my lower body, is typically very limited.

If I’ve gotta move around the ring on Tuesday, doing the 5/3/1 work and then 5 x 10 on two more exercises plus abs is going to have me feeling like I’m moving in water, especially if you’re only lifting twice a week.

Typically I do the 5/3/1 work and then an exercise for the opposite muscle group - i.e. if it’s deadlift day, I’ll do squats either for reps or 5 x 10 with half my max, and then abs, and then I’m done.

If it’s upper body, I tend to do 5/3/1 work, then pullups, pushups, some band pull aparts. Sometimes I throw in arm work also, but I’ve been limited due to a forearm injury lately that’s prevented me from doing rows either. Normally those would be in there as well.

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Not saying that I know anything at all but Bench Press is a standard movement that incorporates many upper body muscles. I have noticed many advantages to having a strong bench press.[/quote]

For training MMA I would agree to the bench press.

For boxing, not so much.

I despise the barbell bench press as it is because I believe it to be a ruiner of shoulders, and not really necessary for combat sports that rely heavily on striking.

In grappling, of course, being stronger always helps.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
This I don’t know, I’ve often wondered that myself.
[/quote]
I just answered this.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I despise the barbell bench press as it is because I believe it to be a ruiner of shoulders, and not really necessary for combat sports that rely heavily on striking.
[/quote]
If you watch the “So you think you can bench” series by Dave Tate, it addresses the proper way to bench to protect your shoulders from injury.

[quote]Ranzo wrote:
Not saying that I know anything at all but Bench Press is a standard movement that incorporates many upper body muscles. I have noticed many advantages to having a strong bench press.[/quote]

There are dozens of better exercises to work the same pattern.Bench press is all-popular,overrated exercise.It doesnt matter what anybody says,people are still going to bench press,they are going to use too much time,energy nad concentration to bench press,they are going to bench press some more despite shoulder pain.

Its a cultural thing.Same as with upper body.Athletes will find any excuse or reason to bench press,biceps curl or do some other exercise for hypertrophy of upper body muscles.I guess majority of them are closet-body builders or they use bench press as dick-measuring tool.