T Nation

Jews in the Hadith

“The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time [of judgment] will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!” (Sahih Muslim book 41, no. 6985);
http://www.muslimaccess.com/sunnah/hadeeth/muslim/041.html

The USC Muslim student association took this part out of their online Hadith, not because they disagreed with it, but because the provost made them. The hadith wast taken from this passage:

[quote]Book 041, Number 6981:

Ibn 'Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him.

Book 041, Number 6982:

Ubaidullah has reported this hadith with this chain of transmitters (and the Words are):" There is a Jew behind me."

Book 041, Number 6983:

Abdullah b. 'Umar reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You and the Jews would fight against one another until a stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.

Book 041, Number 6984:

Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Jews will fight against you and you will gain victory over them until the stone would say: Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; kill him.

Book 041, Number 6985:

Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.[/quote]

The same is echoed in Sahih Bukhari, one of the other most reputable Hadith collections:

[quote]
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." 

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 791:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The Jews will fight with you, and you will be given victory over them so that a stone will say, 'O Muslim! There is a Jew behind me; kill him!' " [/quote]

But keep telling yourselves that the “cycle of violence” between Israel and “the Palestinians (read: Arabs)” is over land and “right of return”.

Are you trying to say they have no intention of being peaceful! Damn, who’d of thunk it!

I should probably mark out all the passages in my Old Testament where God told/allowed anyone to kill anyone else. That way everyone will know I’m a peaceful Christian. The story of Samson is going to get pretty boring.

[quote]MrRezister wrote:
I should probably mark out all the passages in my Old Testament where God told/allowed anyone to kill anyone else. That way everyone will know I’m a peaceful Christian. The story of Samson is going to get pretty boring.[/quote]

Won’t be much left when you’re done.

[quote]pookie wrote:
MrRezister wrote:
I should probably mark out all the passages in my Old Testament where God told/allowed anyone to kill anyone else. That way everyone will know I’m a peaceful Christian. The story of Samson is going to get pretty boring.

Won’t be much left when you’re done.
[/quote]

Thankfully, we have the New, which is the fulfillment of the Old. We’re no longer obligated to cherem or any other Israelite practices unless specifically re-iterated in the New Testament, but what was re-iterated was “love your neighbor” and various other morals that are pretty much universal.

No atheist will get bent out of shape because Jesus said “turn the other cheek.” They don’t so much like the theological implications of cherem, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and so on, but according to them, the day of judgment will never happen anyway.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Thankfully, we have the New, which is the fulfillment of the Old. We’re no longer obligated to cherem or any other Israelite practices unless specifically re-iterated in the New Testament, but what was re-iterated was “love your neighbor” and various other morals that are pretty much universal.

No atheist will get bent out of shape because Jesus said “turn the other cheek.” They don’t so much like the theological implications of cherem, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and so on, but according to them, the day of judgment will never happen anyway. [/quote]

Well, that’s the theory, but it tends to vary among the various sects of Christianity. Some are quite insistant on the relevance of the OT, especially when it can be used to back their favorite prejudices; be they an anti-evolution stance or opposition to gay marriage. Genesis and Leviticus are quite in vogue in some quarters.

Note that Christianity is more amenably to modern life mostly because a large portion of Christians do a great job of separating their secular lives from their spiritual ones.

A fairly large portion of them have adopted the “salad bar” approach where they keep the parts that make sense to them and ignore or reject the ones that don’t.

In places where they “live” their faith 24/7 - like many parts of Africa - they end up with dumb problems like kids dying from famine (too many kids, too little resources) and whole villages infected with AIDs because birth control and condoms are forbidden by their church’s “culture of life.”

Since that problem is mostly self-inflicted - they don’t explode their diseased genitals in crowded restaurants or crash birth control cargo planes into buildings - we don’t care much. But it’s not as if no evil comes from following that religion (in its myriad variations) either.

Opposition to gay marriage and evolution and “warfare for the spread of religion” are two different categories. I never suggested that the OT isn’t relevant. It is. I said it has been fulfilled, and must be understood in light of the New.

I think Jesus and Paul were the first to make the make that distinction, actually.

[quote]In places where they “live” their faith 24/7 - like many parts of Africa - they end up with dumb problems like kids dying from famine (too many kids, too little resources) and whole villages infected with AIDs because birth control and condoms are forbidden by their church’s “culture of life.”
[/quote]
I’m not sure what you mean here. Can you provide a concrete example?

Let’s apply this to the previous paragraph. Can you explain how complying with the NT’s prohibition of homosexuality and out-of-wedlock sex will lead to the spread of HIV? Can you point me to the NT’s prohibition of birth control?

[quote]pookie wrote:
But it’s not as if no evil comes from following that religion (in its myriad variations) either.
[/quote]

Evil? Isn’t that whatever a specific group of people in a specific geographic location define it as? Basically, defined by who has the guns and runs the courts? Or, has evil been universally defined by atheists?

So if we have a book on how to diet to lose 30 lbs and various people read it and use only some of the protocols, and lose varying degrees of weight it automatically becomes a downfall of the author and the book. Or is it the people reading the book?

What must it be like to have no hope or nothing to believe in except your “intellect”. Have a nice day with all that.

And furthermore, this thread wasn’t about Christanity and the Bible anyhow, it was about violence between muslims and jews, but as always some lawyer or 12 year old redirected it towards something totally off topic.

[quote]btm62 wrote:
And furthermore, this thread wasn’t about Christanity and the Bible anyhow, it was about violence between muslims and jews, but as always some lawyer or 12 year old redirected it towards something totally off topic.[/quote]

If someone redirects a thread, and everyone then follows, does it “become the downfall of” whoever redirected? You don’t practice much of what you preach, now do you?

You and your faith always come off as such a bundle of joy and happiness; it really makes us unbelievers wonder what we could be missing.

As for the thread, I won’t have enough time for another religious discussion - at least not for those who would’ve been interested in discussing things seriously; so I won’t waste their time.

Hot tip: Next time you wish to address the topic of a thread, why not simply do that? Instead of feebly denouncing the 12 years old who are somehow able enough to derail all the adults talking amongst themselves.

Anyway, you’ve got the thread back and can get to muslim/jew/lawyer/kid-bashing; whatever you prefer.

Just like Jesus would do.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:

No atheist will get bent out of shape because Jesus said “turn the other cheek.” They don’t so much like the theological implications of cherem, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and so on, but according to them, the day of judgment will never happen anyway. [/quote]

You’re honestly proposing that Jesus, as depicted in the Bible, never said anything morally repugnant?

As long as a good man goes to hell for not believing in God, Christianity shall remain a disgusting blight on this Earth. Islam is only slightly more disgusting, with Judaism popping in between them.

Islam gets the gold, Judaism the silver, and Christianity the Bronze.

It’s kind of like winning the “Douchebag of the Year” award.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Islam gets the gold, Judaism the silver, and Christianity the Bronze.[/quote]

Compared to the other two, Judaism has so few adherents that it doesn’t even make the finals. You can’t really compare billions of followers with somewhat less than 20-30 millions.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

As long as a good man goes to hell for not believing in God, Christianity shall remain a disgusting blight on this Earth. [/quote]

But, you don’t believe in the afterlife, much less punishment in it. So, why does it bother you what Christians believe may happen to the soul (which you also don’t believe in)? And, the disgusting blight bit sounded about as fire and brimstone as any holy rolling, snake handling, backwoods, preacher-man.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:

No atheist will get bent out of shape because Jesus said “turn the other cheek.” They don’t so much like the theological implications of cherem, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and so on, but according to them, the day of judgment will never happen anyway.

You’re honestly proposing that Jesus, as depicted in the Bible, never said anything morally repugnant?

As long as a good man goes to hell for not believing in God, Christianity shall remain a disgusting blight on this Earth. Islam is only slightly more disgusting, with Judaism popping in between them.

Islam gets the gold, Judaism the silver, and Christianity the Bronze.

It’s kind of like winning the “Douchebag of the Year” award.[/quote]

What medal do atheists get?

This begs the question, “Who’s morality?” Of course, you could try to provide examples of what you find “morally repugnant” that we could discuss, but something tells me you’re more into hand-waving dismissals.

You do provide a good example of liberal Jewish neurosis, though: the mosque down the street is equally likely to start a pogrom as the baptist church next door, right?

There’s nothing in the NT that “believing in God” will get you into heaven.

As the NT points out, even demons believe that. You should try to understand Christianity, rather than the caricature you have in your head. It will enhance your credibility.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
You should try to understand Christianity, rather than the caricature you have in your head. It will enhance your credibility. [/quote]

Talking of which, you might want to read up on ethics and morality and how it can be derived from entirely human sources, without resorting to a “creator” figure as a law-giver / punishment distributor.

To actually think and reflect about how such morals can be justified and supported, instead of quietly acquiescing unquestioningly a morality given to you from and old book - not open to debate or query - would make you better able to discuss it intelligently.

As it is, it’s pointless to debate morals or their sources with you, as you haven’t done your homework and have no idea - as evidenced by your comments - as to how morals can be justified in the absence of an omnipotent deity; even an imaginary one.

Or to paraphrase, “you should try to understand morals and ethics, rather than the caricature you have in your head.”

You already know what it could do for your credibility.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
What medal do atheists get?[/quote]

They don’t. They lose too. There is insufficient evidence to assert with any authority that there is no higher power. However, I doubt said higher power is an old man with a white beard.

Also, weren’t Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot atheists? Just askin’.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
There is insufficient evidence to assert with any authority that there is no higher power.[/quote]

Of course, the same can be said of ghosts, fairies, were-wolves, leprechauns, elves, unicorns, vampires, dragons, griffons, sea monsters, big feet and invisible flying ninja monkeys.

Better cover your bases, you never know.