JB and Others: Egypt and the Army

NorCal, please don’t cry racism.

The question I find asking myself -as do probably countless other westerners- is rather this:

Can the modern muslim world gain the upper hand in a struggle of culture that firmly divides it between secular, liberal cities on one side and vast, rural areas overflowing with poor, uneducated people?

Consider this: I might have more in common with a young academic from Istanbul or Cairo than from my reactionary, conservative neighbour.
Today, that’s entirely possible.
However, my soulmate’s country’s policies are driven by politicians who’s mandate derives from radical muslim forces.
No liberal reformer has a chance of being elected in the muslim world.

This divide between the young and old, between the religious and secular might be the deepest cultural gap we’ve ever seen emerge in history.

Imagine two afghans waiting for a bus: a 90+ year old farmer with a childbride, kalashnikov in hand, standing next to an internet geek, who’s listening to political punkrock from a virtual mp3 cloud through his smartphone earplugs.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
NorCal, please don’t cry racism.

The question I find asking myself -as do probably countless other westerners- is rather this:

Can the modern muslim world gain the upper hand in a struggle of culture that firmly divides it between secular, liberal cities on one side and vast, rural areas overflowing with poor, uneducated people?

Consider this: I might have more in common with a young academic from Istanbul or Cairo than from my reactionary, conservative neighbour.
Today, that’s entirely possible.
However, my soulmate’s country’s policies are driven by politicians who’s mandate derives from radical muslim forces.
No liberal reformer has a chance of being elected in the muslim world.

This divide between the young and old, between the religious and secular might be the deepest cultural gap we’ve ever seen emerge in history.

Imagine two afghans waiting for a bus: a 90+ year old farmer with a childbride, kalashnikov in hand, standing next to an internet geek, who’s listening to political punkrock from a virtual mp3 cloud through his smartphone earplugs.
[/quote]

Imagine two Afghans waiting for a bus: a 50 year old mechanic who remembers women walking around Kabul in miniskirts on their way to school, standing next to a madrassa educated internet geek, Kalashnikov in hand who has only known the Taliban.

It can swing both ways.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
several people are holding forth essentially saying that attempts at democracy in an Arab Muslim country will inevitably lead to an Iran-type scenario. They will say that all Arabs/Muslims are this or that, making wild generalizations based on racist and bigoted ideas rooted in their own delisions about how superior their own race/religion is.

Well, now that Egyptians have put on the largest demonstration in human history, with estiamtes of 20-30 million people taking to the street in favor of secular democracy over religious facism (represented by the Muslim Brotherhood), I am again hearing shit about how useless, awful, backwards or inherently violent we are. And to those of you that harbor those thoughts, I simply say fuck you and the horse you rode in on, and I hope the horse fucks you too.

I say this because I have Egyptian blood in me,[/quote]

WTF?

If you’re born and raised American, you’re no more “Egyptian” than I am.

The Syrian blood that runs through me hardly makes me “Syrian.”[/quote]

So? Grandfather immigrated from Egypt. How does that matter?

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
several people are holding forth essentially saying that attempts at democracy in an Arab Muslim country will inevitably lead to an Iran-type scenario. They will say that all Arabs/Muslims are this or that, making wild generalizations based on racist and bigoted ideas rooted in their own delisions about how superior their own race/religion is.

Well, now that Egyptians have put on the largest demonstration in human history, with estiamtes of 20-30 million people taking to the street in favor of secular democracy over religious facism (represented by the Muslim Brotherhood), I am again hearing shit about how useless, awful, backwards or inherently violent we are. And to those of you that harbor those thoughts, I simply say fuck you and the horse you rode in on, and I hope the horse fucks you too.

I say this because I have Egyptian blood in me,[/quote]

WTF?

If you’re born and raised American, you’re no more “Egyptian” than I am.

The Syrian blood that runs through me hardly makes me “Syrian.”[/quote]

So? Grandfather immigrated from Egypt. How does that matter? I guess in your world you have NO connection to your ancestors. Even if you visit your country of origin multiple times and vacation with your extended family.

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
So? Grandfather immigrated from Egypt. How does that matter? I guess in your world you have NO connection to your ancestors. Even if you visit your country of origin multiple times and vacation with your extended family.
[/quote]

You would be ass raped and left for dead in Eqypt outside the tourist areas.

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
So? Grandfather immigrated from Egypt. How does that matter? I guess in your world you have NO connection to your ancestors. Even if you visit your country of origin multiple times and vacation with your extended family.
[/quote]

You would be ass raped and left for dead in Eqypt outside the tourist areas.[/quote]

BUT HIS GRANDPA WAS AN EGYPTIAN!!!

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
So? Grandfather immigrated from Egypt. How does that matter? I guess in your world you have NO connection to your ancestors. Even if you visit your country of origin multiple times and vacation with your extended family.
[/quote]

You would be ass raped and left for dead in Eqypt outside the tourist areas.[/quote]
I don’t think you know him well enough to accurately say that

If he would be sticking around family the whole time, he’d pprobably be good

(heh - trying to piss him off?)

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Another hyphenated American looking to be offended by everyone else.[/quote]

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
It looks like the Egyptians (at least the Army) were not going to tolerate Egypt becoming a hot-bed for Islamic Extremism.

  1. Is this all 1) “Good” 2) “Bad” or 3) “Neutral” as far as Israel is concerned?

  2. Is this a “Good” or “Bad” thing for the U.S.?

[/quote]

I don’t know if these questions can be answered seperted from “is this good for Eqyptians?”

What is good for Israel and the USA is an Eqypt where the common guy can get a decent job, the people go to work every day, raise a family, and are generally just like everyone else in the world.

So, when drilled down, the question is “does the coup make it more or less likely that Eqypt will become a normal, stable, government again?”

Eqypt has some serious systemic problems.

Its average worker makes $2/day or so. There is illegal immigration to Judea and Samria by Eqyptians (that is, the arab-occupied portions of Israel) because there are a fair number of factories and relative stability imposed by Israel those territories. So much for those places being Apartied Death Camps, huh?

Eqypt has been on a downhills slide since the European powers screwed with it in the 1920s and deposed the royal family. Nasser came along after a bit; he was disaster. The last president was a thief and surrounded himself with crooks. Morsi? Corrupt as well, but with the added attraction of being an Islamist.

So, does getting rid of Morsi make things better?

On one hand, Morsi was fairly, and freely, elected. Not good to depose an elected government.

On the other, he was an open Islamist and proceeded to impose Sharia law in the military, the courts, etc.

He proceeded to ethnically cleanse the country of Christians (primarily Copts, but also Roman Catholics).

He was on his was to Iran, Part III.

So is it good for him to be gone? Probably in the long run. Eqypt has minimal oil and depends on tourism and tourists do not go to Islamist hell holes. Eqypt has great beaches and sites and weather.

You go there to get drunk on the beach, take a booze cruise up the Nile, and see some really, really cool tombs.

Not going to happen in an Islamist state.

In the short term? Islamists, once given power, do not go quietly. There will be car bombing and shootings, and general terrorist crap.

People were getting thrown off buildings today, for example. It’s bad news.

If you mean, “are they doing what most Eqyptians wanted”? Maybe, but probably not.

Morsi was freely elected. A Sharia-based Constitution was narrowly avoided being imposed (although it was supported by the clear majority) by some really clever procedural acts by the parties representing the minority secular and Christian groups.

Eqypt has been increasingly radicalized over the last 30 years. To give a tidbit: 91% of females get a cliterectomy and labia removed. (I know this because of my wife’s work.)

They are poor and buy the Islamist line hook-line-and-sinker.

If you mean, “are they doing what they feel is best for Eqyptians”? Then the answer is “yes” and perhaps a plurality support their actions.

From their perspective (and they were right) Morsi was going to turn Eqypt into to Hell on Earth, so they had to do something.

IMHO, democracies only work when you have a robust middle class, a relatively educated population, and an economy that is not in total chaos.

Eqypt has no middle class to speak of, is plagued by really poor education, and its economy is in chaos.

To a Westerner, this sounds repugnant, but the fact of the matter is that in such a situation, a meritacracy via the military is the best you can hope for.

In the long run? The Eqyptian military is very professional. It’s pretty much the only place you can get ahead on merit in Eqypt and is the ticket for smart kids from the slums to “make it” in Eqypt.

The military WILL eventually win. Will it be pretty? Nope. Expect murders in the middle of the night, dead kids, and brutal attacks on cars carrying politians, reporters, and just people on the wrong side.

They will establish a secular government. They will impose stability. They will get the religious police under control. They will make the tourist areas safe. They will get the schools open and stop the rapes in the street.

They will accomplish this by using means that will cause those with weak constitutions to weep.

I think they have a long term plan of getting Eqypt on its feet economically and education-wise, at which time it will be ready for a proper democracy.

[/quote]

Judea and Samaria? Arab-occupied Israel? Spare us your racial supremacist jargon.

Egypt has no middle class? Have you done any reading whatsoever? It has a huge middle class. Underemployed youth, yes, but it has a middle class. Who do you think has been camping out in Tahrir?

You guys sure like to make a lot of assumptions with very little facts. You guys know nothing about me, my family/history or situation other than a few posts on a internet board but then continue with some rather negative/insulting comments. Yes I am an “American” but I am proud of my heritage. I didn’t know it was such a shameful thing to some.

Yes, maybe I would get “ass-raped”. If I ended up in the wrong part of the country, sure. Yes, yes I would.

And Mr. Jewbacca… are you Jewish? I hope so. If not, curious choice of a username. Do you live in America? Well, I would guess that if you took a walk as a Jewish man on the South-side of Chicago you Sir would get “Ass-Raped” and then shot with a handgun and robbed of your wallet. Fair enough? Control the murders in Chicago before you look down your nose at the violence in Egypt.

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

You guys sure like to make a lot of assumptions with very little facts.

And Mr. Jewbacca… are you Jewish? I hope so. If not, curious choice of a username. Do you live in America? Well, I would guess that if you took a walk as a Jewish man on the South-side of Chicago you Sir would get “Ass-Raped” and then shot with a handgun and robbed of your wallet. Fair enough? Control the murders in Chicago before you look down your nose at the violence in Egypt. [/quote]

The irony of these two statements is delicious.

Jewbacca is indeed Jewish. And a soldier in the Israel Defense Forces. Just a guess, but I think he may know a bit more about violence, and about Egypt, than you do.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

You guys sure like to make a lot of assumptions with very little facts.

And Mr. Jewbacca… are you Jewish? I hope so. If not, curious choice of a username. Do you live in America? Well, I would guess that if you took a walk as a Jewish man on the South-side of Chicago you Sir would get “Ass-Raped” and then shot with a handgun and robbed of your wallet. Fair enough? Control the murders in Chicago before you look down your nose at the violence in Egypt. [/quote]

The irony of these two statements is delicious.

Jewbacca is indeed Jewish. And a soldier in the Israel Defense Forces. Just a guess, but I think he may know a bit more about violence, and about Egypt, than you do.[/quote]

And you forgot former trial lawyer :).

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Whose wife and unborn child were murdered by a suicide “freedom fighter” bomber.[/quote]

I didn’t know that.

Jewbacca, ha’makom yenahem.