T Nation

JB: A History Lesson?


#1

JB:

When I saw these Rabbis protesting Netanyahu...then read their signs...I have to admit that in my ignorance, I was completely caught off guard.

I had always viewed these Gentlemen (in the Dark Suits and hats) as sort of the "Fundamentalist" of Judaism...and that they would be the LAST to protest against Israel and her Prime Minister.

I obviously need a History lesson.

Thanks, JB.

Mufasa


#2

These are a group of people who identify as Orthodox Jews with a different interpretation of the Torah than those that accept Zionism. They believe they will not have permission to have a Jewish state until the coming of their Messiah. Their opposition to Zionism is based on their interpretation of holy scripture. At least that’s the official stance. I’m sure Jew Bacca will have an informed and insightful answer with a lot more color.

Source: www.nkusa.org

Note - they need to invest in a better web designer.


#3

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
JB:

When I saw these Rabbis protesting Netanyahu…then read their signs…I have to admit that in my ignorance, I was completely caught off guard.

I had always viewed these Gentlemen (in the Dark Suits and hats) as sort of the “Fundamentalist” of Judaism…and that they would be the LAST to protest against Israel and her Prime Minister.

They are Neturei Karta. They are nuts.

I’d say more, but tonight marks Purim, where Queen Ester saved my people from another Persian despot bent on the genocide of all Jews.

Interesting timing. Almost like there is a plan in place by Someone.

I obviously need a History lesson.

Thanks, JB.

Mufasa[/quote]


#4

I need to interject here b/c even though you use the word “despot” for an uninformed reader you make it look like that was the official stance of the Iranian empire. Haman was a vizier and not of Iranian/Persian descent, he was an Amalekite. He did intend to murder scores of Persian Jews as revenge for his father.

Ester, who Jews of all descent celebrate, was a Persian Jew and was literally Persian royalty! Additionally, non-Jewish Persians assisted her with her cause. This is all according to Jewish scripture, not Iranian propaganda.

I don’t think anyone can disagree that Persians treated the Jews better than any other major ancient civilization. What other civilization allowed Jews to be royalty? What other civilization freed the Jews, allowed complete freedom of religion, and promoted their return to Israel? Really what civilization in history has treated Jews better? Europeans murdered millions of Jews. Egyptians used Jews as slaves. Romans didn’t allow Jews autonomy and wanted to desecrate synagogues.

Your post makes it look like enmity between Iranians and Jews always existed, or that Iranians have always been hell bent on Jewish genocide, and that is simply not the case. I’m sure you know this but most do not.


#5

[quote]BPCorso wrote:
I need to interject here b/c even though you use the word “despot” for an uninformed reader you make it look like that was the official stance of the Iranian empire. Haman was a vizier and not of Iranian/Persian descent, he was an Amalekite. He did intend to murder scores of Persian Jews as revenge for his father.

Ester, who Jews of all descent celebrate, was a Persian Jew and was literally Persian royalty! Additionally, non-Jewish Persians assisted her with her cause. This is all according to Jewish scripture, not Iranian propaganda.

I don’t think anyone can disagree that Persians treated the Jews better than any other major ancient civilization. What other civilization allowed Jews to be royalty? What other civilization freed the Jews, allowed complete freedom of religion, and promoted their return to Israel? Really what civilization in history has treated Jews better? Europeans murdered millions of Jews. Egyptians used Jews as slaves. Romans didn’t allow Jews autonomy and wanted to desecrate synagogues.

Your post makes it look like enmity between Iranians and Jews always existed, or that Iranians have always been hell bent on Jewish genocide, and that is simply not the case. I’m sure you know this but most do not.[/quote]

An interesting point, but let’s not forget the current Iranian regime is Islamist and tends to ignore any lessons history may have attempted to teach us before the prophet.


#6

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#7

@ mufasa - A lot of people who hate Israel will say that “real” Jews are against Israel and they’ll point to these Neturei Karta kooks as evidence. But as I mentioned in the other thread Neturei Karta are a couple of hundred activists worldwide from the fringe of one particular sect. They do not at all represent Orthodox Judaism. The largest Orthodox sect is Chabad-Lubavitch and they’re not anti-Zionist at all.

And most Jews who are against religious Zionism for religious reasons still believe that the state of Israel should take practical measures to protect the people and so on. Neturei Karta are fringe loons who pal around with Hamas and went to a holocaust denial conference in Iran that hosted notorious anti-Semites from all over the world. They(NK) are fringe nuts. The Westboro Baptist of Judaism as I said in the other thread.


#8

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
@ mufasa - A lot of people who hate Israel will say that “real” Jews are against Israel and they’ll point to these Neturei Karta kooks as evidence. But as I mentioned in the other thread Neturei Karta are a couple of hundred activists worldwide from the fringe of one particular sect. They do not at all represent Orthodox Judaism. The largest Orthodox sect is Chabad-Lubavitch and they’re not anti-Zionist at all. And most Jews who are against religious Zionism for religious reasons still believe that the state of Israel should take practical measures to protect the people and so on. Neturei Karta are fringe loons who pal around with Hamas and went to a holocaust denial conference in Iran that hosted notorious anti-Semites from all over the world. They(NK) are fringe nuts. The Westboro Baptist of Judaism as I said in the other thread.[/quote]

Wow.

This is truly eye-opening, SM.

I wonder what in the WORLD could be their “justification” for Holocaust denial, and that somehow a conference of anti-Semites would be “friendly” to their cause?

Mufasa


#9

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
@ mufasa - A lot of people who hate Israel will say that “real” Jews are against Israel and they’ll point to these Neturei Karta kooks as evidence. But as I mentioned in the other thread Neturei Karta are a couple of hundred activists worldwide from the fringe of one particular sect. They do not at all represent Orthodox Judaism. The largest Orthodox sect is Chabad-Lubavitch and they’re not anti-Zionist at all. And most Jews who are against religious Zionism for religious reasons still believe that the state of Israel should take practical measures to protect the people and so on. Neturei Karta are fringe loons who pal around with Hamas and went to a holocaust denial conference in Iran that hosted notorious anti-Semites from all over the world. They(NK) are fringe nuts. The Westboro Baptist of Judaism as I said in the other thread.[/quote]

Wow.

This is truly eye-opening, SM.

I wonder what in the WORLD could be their “justification” for Holocaust denial, and that somehow a conference of anti-Semites would be “friendly” to their cause?

Mufasa
[/quote]

All religions have their crazies. The NK activists number a couple of hundred at most worldwide out of millions of Orthodox Jews so they’re just the tiny fringe of one particular sect.


#10

[quote]theuofh wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:
I need to interject here b/c even though you use the word “despot” for an uninformed reader you make it look like that was the official stance of the Iranian empire. Haman was a vizier and not of Iranian/Persian descent, he was an Amalekite. He did intend to murder scores of Persian Jews as revenge for his father.

Ester, who Jews of all descent celebrate, was a Persian Jew and was literally Persian royalty! Additionally, non-Jewish Persians assisted her with her cause. This is all according to Jewish scripture, not Iranian propaganda.

I don’t think anyone can disagree that Persians treated the Jews better than any other major ancient civilization. What other civilization allowed Jews to be royalty? What other civilization freed the Jews, allowed complete freedom of religion, and promoted their return to Israel? Really what civilization in history has treated Jews better? Europeans murdered millions of Jews. Egyptians used Jews as slaves. Romans didn’t allow Jews autonomy and wanted to desecrate synagogues.

Your post makes it look like enmity between Iranians and Jews always existed, or that Iranians have always been hell bent on Jewish genocide, and that is simply not the case. I’m sure you know this but most do not.[/quote]

An interesting point, but let’s not forget the current Iranian regime is Islamist and tends to ignore any lessons history may have attempted to teach us before the prophet. [/quote]

The only point of my post was to provide a different perspective on the historical event Purim celebrates. You can say “The Persians wanted to genocide all the Jews but Ester saved the Jews from the evil Persian ruler!” But the reality is that Ester was a Persian herself, a Persian QUEEN! The man she foiled, although a vizier of the Persian Empire, was NOT Persian or descendant of any Iranian peoples. Non-Jewish Persians helped the Persian Queen save the lives of Persian Jews. I’m not equating what happened to the current Iranian regime. I’m not saying Ali Khamenei is a friend of the Jews. People’s sense of history is so poor it’s easy to distort it and spin historical events to make it look like Iranians have always been the enemies of Jewish peoples and this is false.

Jews are some of the oldest inhabitants and citizens of Iranian civilization. A Persian Jew looks the exact same as any other Iranian, speaks the exact same, and largely cooks the same way. They follow different holy books (and most are agnostic anyway). Persian Jews in America get on better with fellow Iranians than other Jews, who usually discriminate against Persian Jews and hate it when Persian Jews attend their synagogues. These little tidbits aren’t usually known to people in other groups.


#11

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]theuofh wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:
I need to interject here b/c even though you use the word “despot” for an uninformed reader you make it look like that was the official stance of the Iranian empire. Haman was a vizier and not of Iranian/Persian descent, he was an Amalekite. He did intend to murder scores of Persian Jews as revenge for his father.

Ester, who Jews of all descent celebrate, was a Persian Jew and was literally Persian royalty! Additionally, non-Jewish Persians assisted her with her cause. This is all according to Jewish scripture, not Iranian propaganda.

I don’t think anyone can disagree that Persians treated the Jews better than any other major ancient civilization. What other civilization allowed Jews to be royalty? What other civilization freed the Jews, allowed complete freedom of religion, and promoted their return to Israel? Really what civilization in history has treated Jews better? Europeans murdered millions of Jews. Egyptians used Jews as slaves. Romans didn’t allow Jews autonomy and wanted to desecrate synagogues.

Your post makes it look like enmity between Iranians and Jews always existed, or that Iranians have always been hell bent on Jewish genocide, and that is simply not the case. I’m sure you know this but most do not.[/quote]

An interesting point, but let’s not forget the current Iranian regime is Islamist and tends to ignore any lessons history may have attempted to teach us before the prophet. [/quote]

Agreed. The Persians of 26 centuries ago are not the Persians of today nor are they those Persians since the 7th century.[/quote]

That still doesn’t justify distorting historical events. No where in my post did I even imply I was referring to current events. I highly doubt most people were aware Ester was a Persian Queen and Haman was an Amalekite. And you can say the Iranians of today aren’t those Iranians since 1979. Why try and make it look like it’s been thousands of years in the making? And tell me who the hell is the same as anyone from 2600 years ago? Germanic people? Chinese people? Indian people?

The plain facts are Europeans expelled and murdered millions of Jews over the course of history. Other civilizations enslaved Jews and didn’t allow them autonomy. If we’re looking at actual results, what actually occurred, Iranians don’t have the blood on their hands that every other civilization has. What civilization has done for the Jews what Iranians have? I’d like to see a list of civilizations, dead or still existing, that allowed Jews to be royalty, freed them from slavery, promoted their return to Israel, etc.

So one former president, one mid-level cleric who ascended to authority through political shrewdness, and some current commanders in the IRGC are supposed to represent ALL Iranians? This is what pisses me off. A few Iranians, some Iranian media outlets owned by these few Iranians, talk shit and all of a sudden it’s “These Persians ain’t the same as the Persians from 2600 years ago”.

You know there are still plenty of Nazi groups in Germany. Do they represent all Germans? You don’t have a bunch of reports and front page headlines in the USA when Europeans have a ragtag group of people shouting anti-Semitic slogans, which happens frequently. But when certain factions of the Iranian government PAYS and buses in poor rural people to shout “Death to Israel, Death to America” it’s front page fucking news. Instead of realizing, maybe it’s the desperation of some factions of people in power who are deathly afraid of losing their grip on power, and are trying to scuttle the efforts of Iranian progression.


#12

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
JB:

When I saw these Rabbis protesting Netanyahu…then read their signs…I have to admit that in my ignorance, I was completely caught off guard.

I had always viewed these Gentlemen (in the Dark Suits and hats) as sort of the “Fundamentalist” of Judaism…and that they would be the LAST to protest against Israel and her Prime Minister.

I obviously need a History lesson.

Thanks, JB.

Mufasa[/quote]

I don’t think 8 angry Rabbis is much of a concern.


#13

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
JB:

When I saw these Rabbis protesting Netanyahu…then read their signs…I have to admit that in my ignorance, I was completely caught off guard.

I had always viewed these Gentlemen (in the Dark Suits and hats) as sort of the “Fundamentalist” of Judaism…and that they would be the LAST to protest against Israel and her Prime Minister.

I obviously need a History lesson.

Thanks, JB.

Mufasa[/quote]

I don’t think 8 angry Rabbis is much of a concern.[/quote]

True.

The problem is that I just didn’t realize that there were such disparate “Sects”? (if that is the correct term) among the Orthodox. So it was a real surprise when I saw the Rabbi’s in the Dark Coats and Hats protesting against the Prime Minister and Israel.

Mufasa


#14

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
JB:

When I saw these Rabbis protesting Netanyahu…then read their signs…I have to admit that in my ignorance, I was completely caught off guard.

I had always viewed these Gentlemen (in the Dark Suits and hats) as sort of the “Fundamentalist” of Judaism…and that they would be the LAST to protest against Israel and her Prime Minister.

I obviously need a History lesson.

Thanks, JB.

Mufasa[/quote]

I don’t think 8 angry Rabbis is much of a concern.[/quote]

True.

The problem is that I just didn’t realize that there were such disparate “Sects”? (if that is the correct term) among the Orthodox. So it was a real surprise when I saw the Rabbi’s in the Dark Coats and Hats protesting against the Prime Minister and Israel.

Mufasa
[/quote]

I’m sure it’s a lot like Christianity. I’m Catholic, and even within Catholicism there are numerous sects that don’t entirely agree.


#15

So, just to clarify BPCorso: you think an off-the-cuff, one sentence aside to a post is actually a distortion of historical events and warrants a wall of text to correct and subsequent posts to reiterate and expand? Because I think at most an off-the-cuff comment is a goof. JB of all people knows his history. And especially the history of his own damned religion and people.


#16

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
So, just to clarify BPCorso: you think an off-the-cuff, one sentence aside to a post is actually a distortion of historical events and warrants a wall of text to correct and subsequent posts to reiterate and expand? Because I think at most an off-the-cuff comment is a goof. JB of all people knows his history. And especially the history of his own damned religion and people.[/quote]

I know he knows his history. I say in my first response to JB “I’m sure you know this but most don’t”. He also brought up the history of my people, and I felt compelled to respond and offer my perspective since I see Iranian history getting shit on and distorted all the time. I apologize for writing too many lines, but that’s it.


#17

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
So, just to clarify BPCorso: you think an off-the-cuff, one sentence aside to a post is actually a distortion of historical events and warrants a wall of text to correct and subsequent posts to reiterate and expand? Because I think at most an off-the-cuff comment is a goof. JB of all people knows his history. And especially the history of his own damned religion and people.[/quote]

I know he knows his history. I say in my first response to JB “I’m sure you know this but most don’t”. He also brought up the history of my people, and I felt compelled to respond and offer my perspective since I see Iranian history getting shit on and distorted all the time. I apologize for writing too many lines, but that’s it.[/quote]

You must have just loved the movie 300. :stuck_out_tongue:


#18

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#19

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

But when certain factions of the Iranian government PAYS and buses in poor rural people to shout “Death to Israel, Death to America” it’s front page fucking news.[/quote]

Yes, I’m sure that’s all it is.

A few poor people bused in.

All the other Iranians love Jews.

Uh huh.

Funny how I got a different story from my Iranian ex-wife of 7 years (born / raised in Tehran & Shiraz).
[/quote]

From all the things I have read it is about 50/50… extremists/just want to be normal people.

The problem is, the crazy 50% run the fucking country.


#20

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]BPCorso wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:
So, just to clarify BPCorso: you think an off-the-cuff, one sentence aside to a post is actually a distortion of historical events and warrants a wall of text to correct and subsequent posts to reiterate and expand? Because I think at most an off-the-cuff comment is a goof. JB of all people knows his history. And especially the history of his own damned religion and people.[/quote]

I know he knows his history. I say in my first response to JB “I’m sure you know this but most don’t”. He also brought up the history of my people, and I felt compelled to respond and offer my perspective since I see Iranian history getting shit on and distorted all the time. I apologize for writing too many lines, but that’s it.[/quote]

You must have just loved the movie 300. :P[/quote]

My buddy paid for my ticket. I wasn’t one of those that threw a hissy fit over it :slight_smile: