Japanese Men Refusing to Leave their Rooms

Just so you know, I knew nothing about the reality of Japanese culture for my first three solid years. After that, I knew enough to realize that everything I had previously assumed about it had been wrong, and it took a few more years for me to really start to get a solid grasp on how things are and why they are the way they are here.

And I still don’t possess the hubris to dare to say “this is the way it is.”

Please do not take my comments as rude or condescending, that’s not my intention at all. I just want to save you some grief and let you know there’s a lot more to it than the Japanese allow you to see at first.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
I don’t mean to imply that you got the bulk of your information from manga or TV, just that I can see a lot of why you wrote being taken at face value by people who do.

I am no athropologist, sociologist or ethnologist. I went to Japan with very similar stereotypical ideas as the ones you wrote about above. I had studied language and culture, and had read Reichauer and van Wolferen, so I thought I was pretty well informed.

What I found over the next two decades, after having gained a fluency in the language, and a facility with the cultural nuances, and having spent a lot of time with a wide variety of people, from business men to graphic designers, from long-haired rock and rollers to tattooed yakuza thugs, from jieitai officers to surfers, hippies, and the PTA, is that you just can’t say that “Japanese people are (blank)” any more than you can say that Americans are (blank). Although there is a lot more racial homogeneity in Japan than in the US, it is not culturally or societally homogeneous at all.

If you’re still in Japan ten years from now, it will be interesting to compare your observations then with what you wrote just a little while ago. [/quote]

He will cringe at what he just posted.

There is a saying among expats in Japan that if you can manage to get away before you’re there for five years, you’re pretty much safe. Over five years, and you may never leave. Look at Karel van Wolferen. From reading his books and his columns, you’d think he hates the fucking country and everything about it. But he is hooked. He can’t stay away.

As an aside, Chushin, you may get a kick out of this. At the time President Bush the Elder made his ill-fated Japan trip, B-Sensei was working rather closely with the British Conservatives Abroad group. They were going to host a reception for the president after his meeting with Prime minister Miyazawa, to which SB had been invited. M-Sensei and I were also included on the invite, and SB had a chuckle when he played a voicemail for me to hear. It was good old Karel, one of the most influential foreign writers on Japanese power and policy, all bothered because nobody had invited him to the party, and would it be a problem if he tagged along.

Of course, President Bush barfed all over the Miyazawa, and he was rushed to the hospital (it was a heart attack: don’t let anyone tell you otherwise) and the party was cancelled. I just thought it was funny hearing the voice of van Wolferen, so strident and almost bellicose in his books, sounding so meek and supplicating when doing the old onegai shimasu with SB.

Gosh, how Japanese, I thought to myself.

Hey Varq, do you ever get back over here? I sure would like to share a few drinks with you and Chushin. Hell, Push is supposed to be coming some time within the next 6 months or so. If the four of us were to get together, I can scarcely imagine the outcome. (^_~)

You’ve got to be careful with Chushin, though, he gets jealous if you don’t give him enough attention. (=)

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
There is a saying among expats in Japan that if you can manage to get away before you’re there for five years, you’re pretty much safe. Over five years, and you may never leave. Look at Karel van Wolferen. From reading his books and his columns, you’d think he hates the fucking country and everything about it. But he is hooked. He can’t stay away.

As an aside, Chushin (and perhaps you too, Cortes), you may get a kick out of this. At the time President Bush the Elder made his ill-fated Japan trip, B-Sensei was working rather closely with the British Conservatives Abroad group. They were going to host a reception for the president after his meeting with Prime minister Miyazawa, to which SB had been invited. M-Sensei and I were also included on the invite, and SB had a chuckle when he played a voicemail for me to hear. It was good old Karel, one of the most influential foreign writers on Japanese power and policy, all bothered because nobody had invited him to the party, and would it be a problem if he tagged along?

Of course, President Bush barfed all over PM Miyazawa, and he was rushed to the hospital (it was a heart attack: don’t let anyone tell you otherwise) and the party was cancelled. I just thought it was funny hearing the voice of van Wolferen, so strident and almost bellicose in his books, sounding so meek and supplicating when doing the old onegai shimasu with SB.

Gosh, how Japanese, I thought to myself. [/quote]

Varq, I feel like a nerd at the popular kids’ lunch table when you tell stories.

As for the 5 year mark, I think that’s probably because it’s so damned easy for a Western guy, no matter how hideous, to score a beautiful Japanese woman, and most guys tend to end up married if they are here that long (that’s what happened to me, anyway).

Even if I weren’t married, though, I do understand your comments about van Wolferen. I sometimes wonder why in the hell it is I can tolerate living in a country that is so…foreign to everything I am, yet I try and imagine leaving at it just seems like a dream…

This is particularly true in the summer in the Land of a Thousand Unused Air-Conditioners.

Grrr…

Sorry raj, with us ex-pats here, this thread pulls off topic worse than a rusted old Chevy truck.

[quote]Cortes wrote:
As for the 5 year mark, I think that’s probably because it’s so damned easy for a Western guy, no matter how hideous, to score a beautiful Japanese woman, and most guys tend to end up married if they are here that long (that’s what happened to me, anyway).
[/quote]
Hear that, Ron?

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
Chushin, I’m not being argumentative by the following question, just honestly curious, where am I off-base?

Perhaps it is only based on my experience, but the folks I know here in Japan are very shy and intro-verted, many women in their 30’s still single and wanting to be married, and families do put a lot of weight on men’s shoulders - especially first-borns to represent the family.

To answer your second question, 7 months.

Edit: Oh and to your third question. I can read hiragana and katakana. I speak some, but its more grammatical Japanese, not common Japanese (ie the lingo is different). I can usually understand people if they speak slowly enough but get lost if they speak too fast or use large sentences. Both happen quite often.[/quote]

I don’t want to read too much into Chushin’s question, but I believe the reason he asked you about your Japanese ability is that Japanese is an extremely nuanced language, with circumlocution practically built in. The thing is, without being able to speak deeply with your Japanese acquaintances in their native language, it’s going to be very difficult to understand who they are in real life. In other words, who they are when you don’t see them through a filter of their English, or your inexpert Japanese.

I hate to sound critical, but your assessment of Japanese society sounds very cliched; like something, in fact, written by someone who had read a little something about “traditional Japanese society”, and had seen enough to comment from a gaijin’s perspective to other gaijin who dont know anything about the place but what they’ve seen on TV, but hadn’t lived in the country long enough, or learned the language or culture thoroughly enough, to understand the trees, let alone see the forest. [/quote]

Varq - you hereby have my authority to speak for me on such issues. That’s a great expression of my thoughts.

Quasi - You seem like a good guy, open minded and willing to learn. Welcome to the “Japan guy” club here at T-Nation. :wink: I’m off to work myself now, so not sure when I can get to this issue. For now, just in case you’re not aware, let me explain that Varq, Cortes and I have all spent roughly between 1 and 2 decades here each, all are fluent in Japanese, and all have been married to Japanese women (with kids in some cases). At least one of us also has a graduate degree in Japanese studies. Varq and Cortes are among the most intelligent and articulate men you’ll ever come across. I know I risk sounding like a dick telling you those things, but I really just want you to have some idea of who we are when we engage in any future Japan discussion. I hope you can take it that way. BTW, what part of the country are you in?[/quote]

And Chushin’s one of the nicest guys you’ll ever meet.

Even if he does get a little jealous from time to time. (^_~)v

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
As for the 5 year mark, I think that’s probably because it’s so damned easy for a Western guy, no matter how hideous, to score a beautiful Japanese woman, and most guys tend to end up married if they are here that long (that’s what happened to me, anyway).
[/quote]
Hear that, Ron?[/quote]

Lol!

It really is true, though. I’ve seen male 3s with 10s here more often than I can count.

So what don’t you guys actually share your information instead of referencing it like an old man telling a young boy that later on in life “he’ll understand.”

That is basically what I’m reading here yet no examples are being provided. If you have actual insight into the Japanese culture - and I certainly believe you do - then please share.

You’ve quite literally referenced my posts and each others, shared a comical inside joke, then left without giving any good information. Is your goal to help people learn, or just enjoy being on a separate level from everyone else?

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
So what don’t you guys actually share your information instead of referencing it like an old man telling a young boy that later on in life “he’ll understand.”
[/quote]
because they’re old

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
So what don’t you guys actually share your information instead of referencing it like an old man telling a young boy that later on in life “he’ll understand.”

That is basically what I’m reading here yet no examples are being provided. If you have actual insight into the Japanese culture - and I certainly believe you do - then please share.

You’ve quite literally referenced my posts and each others, shared a comical inside joke, then left without giving any good information. Is your goal to help people learn, or just enjoy being on a separate level from everyone else?[/quote]

If it was that simple, do you think it’d take years of actually living here and speaking the language at a high level of fluency to figure out?

Go back through and read the quote Chushin posted from the other thread. It’s on the first page. That scratches the surface of this topic.

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]Quasi-Tech wrote:
So what don’t you guys actually share your information instead of referencing it like an old man telling a young boy that later on in life “he’ll understand.”
[/quote]
because they’re old[/quote]

You are cracking me up today ,spar4tee.

I’m only “old” to my elementary school students. I’m still in my thirties. Now, Chushin, on the other hand…

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Hey Varq, do you ever get back over here? I sure would like to share a few drinks with you and Chushin. Hell, Push is supposed to be coming some time within the next 6 months or so. If the four of us were to get together, I can scarcely imagine the outcome. (^_~)

You’ve got to be careful with Chushin, though, he gets jealous if you don’t give him enough attention. (=)[/quote]

Da fuck???

Our love affair is now officially off, Cortes![/quote]

See what I mean?

So pretty much what I’m being told is “don’t bother trying to learn the culture if you’re only here two years.” Just be a bumbling idiot gaijin and go about my ways, I mean that’s what most do right? We all know that you can’t proficiently learn a language - especially in two years - at that level. I studied two years before coming and have had an additional 6 months since being here, I’m not that naive to believe I’ll ever get there.

We are on an internet forum, talking about Japanese people and culture. I would hope that you could at least start somewhere and go forward from there, usually that does occur in a conversation. Otherwise, it leads me to believe, that even if we met for a dinner/whatever you’d still have nothing to share, because it would take too long to do so, in essence there is nothing available for you to teach and nothing available for me to learn.

Seems rather pointless doesn’t it?

And I sincerely think its rather sad that beautiful Japanese girls end up with ugly assed foreigners. I’ve already seen a few in my time here when I do venture to the foreign hubs of Tokyo (like last night in Shinagawa).