T Nation

I've been bad


Well, lately I've been looking into other supplement companys, and actually ordered some of their products, I only ordered some multi vitamins and a colon cleanseing kit, but none the less. Today I was thinking of actually ordering their fat burning kit. Well when I read the label, I got to thinking, why am i doing this. I've tried tribex, and it worked awsome. Well I've seen the light, I'm now pretty sure I'm going to order hot rox. Let's give you all some stats so you can see if it will be effective for me. I'm 19, I'm pretty sure I have low test levels, but I'm going to get definate numbers soon. I think I'm about 25-30% percent body fat, but maybe less. I'm on a keto diet, and if I lose enought fat I'd love to start on a mag 10 cycle. I lift 4-5 days a week, depending on school. So if I keep my diet in check and my workouts keep on pace, is hot rox a good thing for me, or am I wasting my time.
Thanks, T-mag rules


i don't like the keto diet. it will slow your metabolism down. plus what kind of workouts are you getting while doing keto and working out 4-5 times a week. they must suck without androgens. you need to do the t-dawg diet 2.0 or cheater's diet. Go to the gym and bust your ass for 45 minutes on the weights. afterwords do some high intensity interval training for 10-15 minutes. then do some low intensity cardio, 130 beats per minute heart rate for 30 minutes. do this as often as you can while monitoring your strength levels. your goal with the weight training is to get consistantly stronger and to boost up your metabolism. Hot-rox works but i would wait to use it until you actually get to much lower body fat levels. for now think about surge, grow, tribex, m, power drive, methoxy. laters pk


Don't bother with the supplements at this stage. Your diet should take care of this for you at 25-30%BF. Read all the dietary info. you can find, but make sure it is solid info. The "previous issues" section of this site can lead you to good info, look for articles by Lonnie Lowery and John Berardi in particular. I'm familiar with the eating habits of most teenagers, so a good change in this area is probably all you need along with some sensible exercise. Get your BF% down to around 10-12% before embarking on a "bulking" period, and even when bulking don't let it creep up higher than 14-16%. Why do you think you have low testosterone? You haven't had it tested yet so are you going by symptoms? Many people use this as an excuse for not getting results. Don't do this until you've had it checked and verified by a test. Seeing that you have such high fat levels, your test levels might fall in the normal range, but your estradiol measures might be through the roof. This is a common scenario, so make sure to have all the hormones of your HPTA and HPAA systems checked. Good luck.


Cite the study that states that the keto diet "slows your metabolism down"


PK, at 25-30%BF the last thing this guy needs in his diet is Surge. I agree that a recovery formula such as this is necessary even when cutting, but there is a difference between cutting and getting to a healthy bodycomposition range. There is no reason why someone with such high fat levels should be ingesting a high amount of simple sugars, even post-workout. A better choice for him would be a high amount of BCAAs and Glutamine with some whey protein and water. No simple sugars whatsoever!


loop that is untrue about the use of Surge. It does contain a high level of carbs (50g) per two scoop serving but this will not harm him. It's ESSENTIAL you take in carbs+protein after a workout if you want to maximize your growth. And there is NO BETTER COMBINATION of that than Surge. If he curbs his carbs througout the day with his other meals he'll be just fine. Carbs should be taken in in moderation but the amount used in Surge, for a PWO drink only, is VERY beneficial. Its not going to harm him one bit if he just watches his carbs with his other meals.


1/He is not trying to maximaize his growth at this point, and 2/it is not essential to have carbs and protein postworkout. On a low carb diet, a high volume of BCAAs and Glutamine with whey protein will fill the muscles with glycogen without the need for added carbs.


"Now, every time we tell someone on a low carb diet that they should have a big whollup of carbs after training, they freak out. They shouldn't. The advantages of a post-workout drink far outweigh the disadvantages of being out of ketosis. In fact, we think ketosis is overrated. In short, don't sweat whether you're in ketosis or not!

Through a variety of mechanisms, pre- and post-workout drinks will improve your rate of fat loss! First off, the drink will increase workout intensity (a problem for most low carb dieters), increase muscle pump, and increase reps performed and weight handled. Other benefits: better preservation of muscle mass while dieting, improved metabolic stimulus during training, higher post-exercise metabolic rate, and a higher GH response to exercise, to name a few. T-mag contributor John Berardi has written about all this before so we won't belabor the point. Just get your post-workout drink and stop worrying!"

T-Dawg 2.0 - http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/243tdawg2.html


PGA, that article I'm sure did not pertain to an individual who is at 25-30%BF. In the article, it mentions reference to John Berardi, but even Berardi has mentioned in the past that this protocol would not be beneficial to someone above 15%BF, as has Christian Thibaudeau and as has Charles Poliquin. These individuals have mucho experience with many athletes over the years and their "real world" experience should not be overlooked. I am a strength coach as well, and I would not compare myself to someone such as Poliquin but even from my experience with many athletes, the aminos and glutamine are a much better choice to get the same positive anti-catabolic properties of the high sugar protocol without the negative aspects, and yes there are negative aspects for someone with very high BF%. If this person were at 12%BF and wanted to cut to 5-6%BF, then sure I would recommend a "Surge-like" product, the results are proven, but those results were not achieved or proven at the higher fat levels.


You are 19 and have already used tribex?


anyone who is trying to lose fat should not destroy muscle mass because you would be destoying the fat burners. Doing a low carb diet while also taking the correct serving of surge should help this person maintain and put on muscle while losing the fat. This person's goal should be to shift his body towards fat burning mode and to increase his metabolism. He should actually be able to maintain and put on muscle mass as he loses fat because he has a lot of reserve energy in that fat mass. He is not someone skinny who needs to eat alot of calories above maintainance just to put on muscle. laters pk


loop please link me to articles that these coaches wrote that state carbs in a PWO shake should be avoided for someone over 15% BF. I'm not sayng you're wrong but everything I've read so far suggests otherwise. So I would like to see some proof that states zero carbs in a PWO shake is the way to go when you're trying to lose high levels of BF. It will just help my knowledge if you can provide me with some links to these articles so I don't give out the wrong information. But I cannot do that until I see some proof.

Here is a quote from Thib in his "Beast Evolves" article

"You do need some carbs to grow and progress. While I did lose a lot of fat on a ketogenic (no carbs) diet, it probably slowed down my progress and greatly diminished the amount of muscle I could have gained." http://www.t-mag.com/nation_articles/256beast.jsp


I didn't say that he should be on a keto diet. CT was on a keto diet and that is a different ballgame. I feel this person should still have carbs in his diet, just not a large influx of simple sugars, at any time. Also, CT was not at 25-30%BF, he was more like 15% if i recall correctly, again different ballgame. My experience with trainees would follow this protocol. Though it sounds good on paper that the sugars post-workout won't be stored as fat, I have found that it is a deterant in fat loss among the more obese especially since the more obese a person is, the poorer their insulin sensitivity.