T Nation

Items From My Newspaper

"Amin Khoudouri, 23 year old US- educated computer analyst, expressed the view of many when he shouted during a demonstration: ‘I was never Hezbollah before, but now i swear i’ll join them’.

When Hezbollah felt a crowd had gone too far after breaking into and vandalising a UN office in Beirut, they ‘immediately melted away the crowd’. Kofi Annan thanked Hezbollah for handing back the Hq’s, and rescuing his staff. All who witnessed the mayhem agreed that Hezbollah alone had prevented further destruction.

Israel vows to continue for another 10-14 days. Israel and the US have resisted calls for an immediate ceasefire, to end the conflict which has killed at least 550 people in Lebanon and 51 in Israel. (All single inverted commas are direct quotations)

'One Israeli minister claimed the IDF to be the ‘most moral army in the world’.
This is following a quote from an IDF spokesman (Mitch Pilcer) two paragraphs before-

‘We will continue the activity, and if neccessary it will be broadened without hesitation.’

Lebanese defence minister- ‘What do you expect Israel to say? It killed 40 children?’(37 in fact, so far accounted, in Qana) He was giving this interview to Al Jazeera.

Ehud Olmert expressed ‘deep sorrow’ at the deaths."

Dr Rice was planning a 10-20,000 strong International force to patrol a buffer zone (where have i heard this before/read it? That’s right, throughout every similar conflict in this region in history) and also to get Hezbollah to leave the area, but not disarmed. In return Israeli soldiers would be returned, in exchange for Lebanese prisoners in Israeli jails." All of these plans have stalled. The Labanese PM called her ‘useless’.

(page 6 now) Israel had told residents to leave the Qana area to avoid civilian casualties, (Moral so far) but two extended families were cut off 'because there are only two roads leading out and the Israelis bombed those days ago."

As far as i can see, Israel wants to create a load of civilian refugees, traipsing with limited possessions since the road is closed and they could only travel by foot. What really happens is a load of people die, they are internationally (not universally, but widely) condemned for disproportionate violence, Hezbollah demonstrates its de facto authority, and the youth see death everywhere at the hands of an alien aggressor, and may now find a desperate group to join, creating more violence.
11 Lebanese die for every Israeli who dies. Israel are ‘most moral army’ but will escalate bombings which may kill only civilians, and a great number of them, ‘without hesitation.’

Well, 19 days of ‘war is hell, like it motherfucker’ kind of tactics. US and UN solutions are just the same as ever- a UN buffer zone, which existed before and after the 6 day war. They could be brushed aside/ignored. Nothing gained. everything lost. Maybe if people spent more time analysing the causes of this conflict, and less time assuming ‘terrorists can’t be negotiated with’ like it’s an insoluble proposition, there would be less death and more progress.

Lebanese ministers will go to see al Jazeera all day long, just like when i’ve split up with girls before, they often go to see a bullshit aunt/not good friend BECAUSE NO-ONE ELSE (who knows me, and is rational, for example) WILL LISTEN so, although an ex of mine doesn’t cosign ‘Men are all the same, bastards’ (extreme, lifetime of rejection auntie-talk) she is associated with this same spinster and her opinions. Do you get that more fire is not the answer?

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
"Amin Khoudouri, 23 year old US- educated computer analyst, expressed the view of many when he shouted during a demonstration: ‘I was never Hezbollah before, but now i swear i’ll join them’.

When Hezbollah felt a crowd had gone too far after breaking into and vandalising a UN office in Beirut, they ‘immediately melted away the crowd’. Kofi Annan thanked Hezbollah for handing back the Hq’s, and rescuing his staff. All who witnessed the mayhem agreed that Hezbollah alone had prevented further destruction.

…[/quote]

Sounds like a Hezbollah orchestrated event.

Could be, i don’t deny the tunaness of that particular incident. but what does it say about Israel’s plan, if an extreme militia can at will command an angry mob for publicity stunts? No doubt Hezbollah are not saints, or without fault. But this ‘open fire on south Lebanon’ policy is just not working. And i believe that there are genuine people out there who had no CAUSE to want to join a militia before, now they want to be terrorists just to avenge

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Could be, i don’t deny the tunaness of that particular incident. but what does it say about Israel’s plan, if an extreme militia can at will command an angry mob for publicity stunts? No doubt Hezbollah are not saints, or without fault. But this ‘open fire on south Lebanon’ policy is just not working. And i believe that there are genuine people out there who had no CAUSE to want to join a militia before, now they want to be terrorists just to avenge[/quote]

Yeah, it’s called propaganda.

Those that assume the terrorists are stupid should realize that they are not. They may not understand western attitudes or culture, but they aren’t stupid.

It’s funny how you admit it smells, but still, STILL, take up the call that Israel is doing the wrong thing. It’s amazing how you rationalize that… is it from years of practice and propaganda?

Strangely, although there is a lot of strife and propaganda, Israel seems to achieving it’s objectives - though I doubt you’d like to acknowledge that.

[quote]vroom wrote:
dannyrat wrote:
Could be, i don’t deny the tunaness of that particular incident. but what does it say about Israel’s plan, if an extreme militia can at will command an angry mob for publicity stunts? No doubt Hezbollah are not saints, or without fault. But this ‘open fire on south Lebanon’ policy is just not working. And i believe that there are genuine people out there who had no CAUSE to want to join a militia before, now they want to be terrorists just to avenge

Yeah, it’s called propaganda.

Those that assume the terrorists are stupid should realize that they are not. They may not understand western attitudes or culture, but they aren’t stupid.

It’s funny how you admit it smells, but still, STILL, take up the call that Israel is doing the wrong thing. It’s amazing how you rationalize that… is it from years of practice and propaganda?

Strangely, although there is a lot of strife and propaganda, Israel seems to achieving it’s objectives - though I doubt you’d like to acknowledge that.[/quote]

Did you read the point i made? There is a definite beginning and a hope for an end to this conflict. What i quoted today is further claims that option a- (just bomb them into submission) doesn’t work. If you believe it does work, outline just how you think it’s working? From this source (admittedly a newspaper, but not a lefty or radical one) it seems that Israel’s shellings have increased support for Hezbollah.
Who do you think i am? (not that it matters) I’m not an arab, i was raised in Southall and personally HATED the muslim community because they were so paranoid and racist in their actions and culture. This was only my experience.
Still, i refuse to accede to what Israel is doing out there. No side in this will succeed until the other a) compromises or b) is destroyed. Since Israel has the political, and economic (not to mention military and geographical) advantage, any concession will have to begin with them. They will have to realise that despite their arrogance, they cannot dictate world policy. They are a nation of 6 million among a sea of arabs. No compromise?=more of this death and indiscriminate killings. This is my point.
I am not a victim of the influence of these quotes. BUT i see that no-one apart from the US is going to let Israel bully the whole region, taking land, jobs and lives. Think about this my friend- 2 soldiers were kidnapped (conditional i suppose on some demand/request from Hezbollah). If they don’t want to bargain, fine. ADMIT IT, so everyone can see in the clear that they have no intention of diplomacy. So, anyway 2 guys got kidnapped. I really do sympathise. Very sad for their families. Now, as a consequence of the war, 51 Israelis are dead, and 550 Lebanese (at the beginning of the day). This is crazy. It’s all getting too stubborn and apocalyptic for my liking.

I say send in more ground troops if you want to fight hezbollah. Or, if not, leave it alone. The terrorists should be condemned, and imprisoned forever for their part in these things. Equally, Israel has committed WAR CRIMES. But you can’t see that it seems.

I said before how this is not a viable tactic, that if they gave up some stolen land, and generally offered hope in the region, you’d have fewer angsty arabs, and terrorism would decline.

[quote] me=
Lebanese ministers will go to see al Jazeera all day long, just like when i’ve split up with girls before, they often go to see a bullshit aunt/not good friend BECAUSE NO-ONE ELSE (who knows me, and is rational, for example) WILL LISTEN so, although an ex of mine doesn’t cosign ‘Men are all the same, bastards’ (extreme, lifetime of rejection auntie-talk) she is associated with this same spinster and her opinions. Do you get that more fire is not the answer?[/quote]

Do you understand this?

In reference to your last sentence, perhaps if you told me Israel’s objectives, maybe i will agree. But they aren’t reaching any peace or security for their state

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
So, anyway 2 guys got kidnapped. I really do sympathise. Very sad for their families. Now, as a consequence of the war, 51 Israelis are dead, and 550 Lebanese (at the beginning of the day). This is crazy. It’s all getting too stubborn and apocalyptic for my liking. [/quote]

Who do I think you are?

I think you are a peacenik that will chastise Israel because of numbers in the newspaper instead of looking at the bigger situation.

It’s not crazy. It’s a tiny minor conflict with respect to the history of the planet.

Your flippant referral to “two guys got kidnapped” is a complete disgrace. Your ability to assign blame based on the numbers alone is a disgrace.

In terms of warfare, Israel has gone above and beyond the call of duty to warn the populace of the region and give them time to leave.

With respect to warfare, the US has absolutely nothing to do with the events at hand. Based on there now being an active war, there is no reason in the world for Israel to not carpet bomb the entire region completely every time a rocket is launched into their country.

They deserve recognition for their restraint and their willingness to try to work within the framework that the UN and other countries are proposing. There is absolutely no need for it except to try to avoid creating negative opinion, which isn’t even working.

You are right in one regard. War is bad. Perhaps Hezbollah shouldn’t have started one?

Personally, I think hatreds run so high in the region that there is no point in not trying to feed the flames. The flames have already been fanned by decades of propaganda.

When people are willing to conduct and support acts of terrorism, their lives are as good as forfeit. That is the only way for the world, the entire world, to move beyond the hold that terrorism has on the planet.

Everything you say on this issue is a platitude, filtered through personal opinion, leading to the conclusion that terrorists are the lowest scum ever, and will always be irredeemable. When i make a post, you ignore (completely) any pertinent points i have made, and contest the most ambiguous sentence, poorly (with no supporting evidence, i’m not questioning your literacy- that is a tactic of cunts). i don’t see any reason why you would so stubbornly cling to ‘terrorism is bad’, except that you are offended by my youth and confidence. Sorry. I’ll grow a beard.

How can anyone justify 600 total dead, in pursuit of 2 people? Make your mind up. If this is a war (which it may be, both sides are firing missiles at the enemy) then 2 hostages are- less than nothing. They are a sentence on a sheet of paper in an Israeli office, a regretful letter to two mothers. Not exactly the same as whole communities finding children and adults and animals strewn among the wreckage of houses. If it isn’t a war (Terrorists don’t technically go to war- they practice attrition- so are these guys terrorists, or revolutionaries? Can’t choose both for purpose of classification). If this isn’t a war, then kidnap is very nasty, but is a (so far) nonviolent attempt at extorting favourable situations out of the hegemonic power. Get this?

I think you know i will criticise Israel because a) their existence, and means of existence which have been expressed many times by me and other learned people, (and the reception of this) as a state puts 6 or more countries in a permanent stage of siege/fear of siege, b) They strike back disproportionate to the initial assault, everytime (Since the creation of eretz-Israel). This is not cool. I’m not a mindless peacekid or whatever. Peace at least price. If more have to die to get peace than would benefit from the peace- WAR. I see no other way to measure the best course, in countries that contain millions, 550 dead Lebanese civilians is always going to be more important than 2 kidnapped Israelis (or if they were Hezbollah, or Lebanese, or English, Irish, Canadian)

[quote]
Personally, I think hatreds run so high in the region that there is no point in not trying to feed the flames. The flames have already been fanned by decades of propaganda.[/quote]
So you are posting here on the internet to feed the flames? FUCK YOU if this is the case. Who is immune from propaganda? No-one (not you, or i…) so we must take that as a constant. It’s not exclusive to there, or here. So why talk about it further, if we both know this.

You shut up with your ignorance and do something good, like that newspaper idea you had, but don’t fuck it up. The way you talk on here, I think you’d go out there, start ‘truth news’ about the unconditional correctness of the Israeli (because lots of them did die 60 years ago, didn’t they? So now they have a period of freedom to murder) which will contain all a young arab needs to know to practice self-loathing and suicidal alienation.

If you talk the shit, Act on it. if you believe you are impartial, you’re not. In the whole time you and i have debated points, i have said ‘true’ or ‘well put’ many times. Today you ceded to me- “War is bad”. Now i know what i’m saying is deeper than that, and more frequently correct, i’m certain. So you are deluded, and need to forget your days as being a liberal. You are now part of the problem, falling for the pantomime caricature of evil presented by ‘the man’. terrorism isn’t the biggest problem in the world.

More people died from Heart disease in Wales in 2001 than died in September 11th. More died in traffic accidents in England (small countries) Than the entire terrorist activity for that year. War- that’s where your real death is. I know for a fact that 2 family members, and 3 friends have been in war related to the mideast- why? So Israel could exist, and USA could set up a few agreeable democracies. The last terrorist to even come near threatening anyone i knew were the IRA- funded by America too. How sympathetic USA were to the struggle of the Irish- Oh but they don’t like muslims. I find it incredibly sinister that an IDF officer can call them the most moral army in the world, and no-one even notices the lie.

You’re all hung up on terrorism. Terrorism does exist, but it’s not like cancer, as i’m sure you remember a guy said. Cancer kills far more. All these guns the USA send to Israel, so Israel don’t have to give up stolen land and can continue their transient existence as a (racist) subsidised jewish state in the mideast. That money could have bought a lot of lab time to prevent some of our most serious afflictions. Of course, two people matter.

Even if they’re in the army. I have a feeling that no terorist matters to you at all. To understand you need to be unemotional, and understand that empires just won’t work anymore, terrorism is out of the bag, and is the antidote. If i can see that, why can’t Israel? If you put down your condescension, you’d know what i know- that no instance of terrorism has ever flourished without a stated cause- usually revolutionary. Also, no terrorism has ever been destroyed by direct opposition- They have either carried on until someone with vision sacrifices a few things (like land or money, or religious privilege), or just withered away due to idleness/apathy.

So to sort things out, we need an objective, humanistic, secular-as-possible education system that will minimise the amount of radicals coming through the ranks. (not one that condemns the terrorist but praises unequivocably the ‘noble jew’. because sadly, this is not the reality as much as you want it to be. If it was, i may be singing your song. I’m not.)

With no agreement of worth (fuck oslo, the roadmap, they’re dildos dressed as gifts) the war will go on forever, USA will be drawn in, americans, all types of arabs, jews, africans, europeans will all certainly die. Perhaps Asia will get involved for some reason. Then we have a definite, easily-created recipe for the end of days. Even without China, or Russia getting in on this, we have a nice biblical pretext anyway, and both sides are famously fervent and stubborn. I want no part in this shit. I know better, it seems you don’t

Good God, are you still posting ratboy? I found you the site you should be on with your pals: http://www.alghaliboun.net/english/

Here’s some highlights from the HEZBOLLAH CHARTER:

"Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. Therefore our struggle will end only when this entity is obliterated. We recognize no treaty with it, no cease fire, and no peace agreements, whether separate or consolidated.

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev’s and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity."

[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
Here’s some highlights from the HEZBOLLAH CHARTER:

"Our primary assumption in our fight against Israel states that the Zionist entity is aggressive from its inception, and built on lands wrested from their owners, at the expense of the rights of the Muslim people. [/quote]

This is the truth

We vigorously condemn all plans for negotiation with Israel, and regard all negotiators as enemies, for the reason that such negotiation is nothing but the recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Therefore we oppose and reject the Camp David Agreements, the proposals of King Fahd, the Fez and Reagan plan, Brezhnev’s and the French-Egyptian proposals, and all other programs that include the recognition (even the implied recognition) of the Zionist entity."
[/quote]

While i won’t be fighting the zionist’s personally, they have got a point. The only ‘negotiations’ so far have not given anything that the Palestinians wanted. Fact. Except for maybe the fez and Brezhnev plans (very similar). If we could agree some shit based on these, i believe there would be less violence than there is now. I don’t expect you to understand

Is this topic even worth debating anymore? Honestly, I cringe at the thought of ever coming across as ignorant, but there comes a point to drop the petty intellectual arguments based on politics and statistics and look at everything for what it is from a raw and unbiased perspective.

The Jews and Arabs, for hundreds of years, have been senselessly slaughtering each other over a piece of fucking sand. Really, you wanna know the solution? Grow and wake the fuck up. I bet if we didn’t care for the oil we would’ve tactically nuked the entire region, and good. These people are all wastes of humanity, all they do is kill, kill, kill. Really, I’m sick of fucking hearing about these God damn morons every day in the media. They’re all wrong, they’re all ignorant, there is no justification whatsoever for either sides actions.

One shoots missiles and kills innocent people, the other straps bombs to their chest (really stupid eh?) and runs into crowded places and kills innocent people. When it comes down to it, they’re all just complete, immoral, scum.

Too bad Hitler never made it to the Middle East, we’d have a lot less problems today. Jerkoffs

[quote]MisterAmazing wrote:
Is this topic even worth debating anymore? Honestly, I cringe at the thought of ever coming across as ignorant, but there comes a point to drop the petty intellectual arguments based on politics and statistics and look at everything for what it is from a raw and unbiased perspective.

The Jews and Arabs, for hundreds of years, have been senselessly slaughtering each other over a piece of fucking sand. Really, you wanna know the solution? Grow and wake the fuck up. I bet if we didn’t care for the oil we would’ve tactically nuked the entire region, and good. These people are all wastes of humanity, all they do is kill, kill, kill. Really, I’m sick of fucking hearing about these God damn morons every day in the media. They’re all wrong, they’re all ignorant, there is no justification whatsoever for either sides actions.

One shoots missiles and kills innocent people, the other straps bombs to their chest (really stupid eh?) and runs into crowded places and kills innocent people. When it comes down to it, they’re all just complete, immoral, scum.

Too bad Hitler never made it to the Middle East, we’d have a lot less problems today. Jerkoffs

[/quote]

Don’t be shy expressing your true feeling! :wink:

I agree with most of what you said; something about living in that region makes the people there insane. I’ve said before that we ought to just quarantine the whole region.

I’m no historian but I think we were all a hell of a lot happier when no one really gave a shit about the Middle East. Fuck 'em, let kill each other. When we became the world’s policeman, we now have to deal with this shit.

HH

Your right it’s not worth debating, there’s 3 types of respondants- a) Peace-types who know nothing b) people like me who know the truth and try to express it (but it’s complicated and difficult to convey, not reducible to amaxim so it’s over most peoples head like pubic hair) c) people who want more war to kill anyone who isn’t of their likeness and disagrees.

There hasn’t been a war out there for centuries (propagaaaaaaanda! false infoooooormation!) and the fact that this opinion still circulates affirms my suspicion that most news agencies don’t know their shit, let alone a layman. How many laymen would argue about nuclear physics (for example)? If you don’t know, you don’t know so just shut up. Basically at the risk of being very conceitful, anyone whose opinion doesn’t bear at least a resemblance to mine on this just hasn’t a) read enough about its origins b) thought enough about the consequences of an eternal war, growing more and more religious and economically-based.

I agree that it would be a lot better to just leave the middle east alone. But the west carried out a surgical transplant of a very bitter, paranoid race (with good cause for their hateful paranoia), simultaneously stealing the valuale resources available to the indigenous folks. America has a very bad record with native peoples. IF we had left the mideast alone, and not supported an arab revolt against the Ottoman Empire (in our own shortsighted interests) pre-ww2, we would have far left responsibilities. But really we’re like the guy who fucked some ugly girl, now owes child support. We OWE stability to this region, if we want to be other than CUNTS

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Basically at the risk of being very conceitful, anyone whose opinion doesn’t bear at least a resemblance to mine on this just hasn’t a) read enough about its origins b) thought enough about the consequences of an eternal war, growing more and more religious and economically-based.[/quote]

Ahahahaha. You are such an ignorant tit.

Dude, maybe you missed it in my earlier post, which you assume is all platitudes.

It is possible to make moral judgments, and then form conclusions based on those judgments. Perhaps this is what leads you to imagine all you are hearing is platitudes or some other bullshit.

I suggest you talk about the ills of warfare and not pin this all on Israel, because each time you do you sound like a complete ignoramus.

Everybody knows and understands that Israel was imposed on the region at one point. The rightness and wrongness of it depends on how far back in history you go to try to attempt rights and wrongs.

In any case, you cannot easily judge the past, or the actions of the past, with the understanding of today. Maybe you are too young to realize it, but standards of behavior and treatment change over time.

I suggest you learn a little bit about war and conflict instead of simply focusing on the Middle East. The Middle East is merely the most disgusting form of violence currently on the planet, but it certainly isn’t anything new with respect to warfare.

Oh, and if you don’t want everyone to think you are an assclown, and that may be too late, stop telling us that if we don’t agree with you that we are wrong.

I remember when I was young and got out of school and thought I knew everything… and that is what you sound like. Someone with no ability to integrate education with real world experience.

And no, I’m not patronizing you.

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
IF we had left the mideast alone, and not supported an arab revolt against the Ottoman Empire (in our own shortsighted interests) pre-ww2, we would have far left responsibilities. [/quote]

Oh, boohoo, sniff, I’m crying.

Look, the Arab world needs to stop telling itself everyone else is to blame for its ills.

They are sitting on so much fucking oil, and they’ve earned so much fucking money with the oil they’ve already sold, the only reason they don’t live in shangri-la is because of themselves.

Maybe its about time they stopped sharpening their knives and grousing about the past and simply built the fucking future that they want?

Once again, nothing has happened in the Middle East with respect to power and force that hasn’t happened to the rest of the world many times over.

However, they, and people like you, cry over it continuously. Boo hoo. The future is waiting, whenever people get around to deciding they want to embrace it.

The past cannot be changed, but the future can be shaped. Guess how you and the Arabs of the Middle East are shaping the future today?

[quote]vroom wrote:
It is possible to make moral judgments, and then form conclusions based on those judgments. (sic) Perhaps this is what leads you to imagine all you are hearing is platitudes or some other bullshit.
[/quote]
Fair point, but i’m saying everone is thinking emotionally in this forum, and irrationally. If we look at the past in any conflict/ non-conflict, we can see causality. this is why i study history . ‘catching the future’ i want to know ‘who threw the past’.

[quote]
I suggest you talk about the ills of warfare and not pin this all on Israel, because each time you do you sound like a complete ignoramus.[/quote]
Okay man i understand. I have. I don’t I know it’s complex and no statement like ‘It’s Hezbollah’s fault/ it’s Israel’s fault’ can account for what happens today, or what i will have to tell my children in the future about what WE did to the world they have to deal with. (yes i may be relatively young but this occurs to me also).

But i am in no doubt ZIONISM STARTED IT, and then ISLAMIC TERRORISTS COMMITTED HORRIBLE ATTACKS ON ISRAELI CIVILIANS, and then ISRAEL OVERREACTED TO THE KIDNAP OF 2 SOLDIERS (starting an actual war, as opposed to the terrorist insurgency that existed as an expression of discontent at a colonial regime). If that sounds like balme to Israel, good. they deserve some. I want to break down persistent attitudes like ‘they’ve been at war for ever’, and ‘you CAN’T negotiate with terrorists’, and ‘Muslims are building an empire’, not to mention my favourite- ‘we need to nuke Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, Russia, Japan, France, Germany etc etc’. I really do try to speak also of the ills suffered by the noble and spiritual masses of devout jews in Israel who have suffered great familial loss in the Holocaust, and have now moved into a state of perpetual war (literally a ‘state’ of perpetual war). I am sincere in my condemnation of violent means to get justice. It is evil, ineffective (which i’ve discussed previously, showing it to be ineffective would be, in my opinion, far more devastating to terrorism than carpet-bombings which are just like a Hezbollah recruitment poster in 3d) and should be stopped, but NOT BY ANY MEANS. Please comment on what i’ve written above, don’t wait for a human error elsewhere then criticise that. I’m not a monster.

[quote]
Everybody knows and understands that Israel was imposed on the region at one point. The rightness and wrongness of it depends on how far back in history you go to try to attempt rights and wrongs.[/quote] True. good points. But i don’t believe most people do know. They assume ‘they’ve been at war for centuries’, and jews are underdogs since the holocaust, and Muslims are trying to create another ‘evil empire’ since they were friendly with Brezhnev et al, so want to destroy the muslims. How silly and ignorant. If everyone did know what i’m saying (historical items) then i’d meet less censure for stating the facts. But i agree, it’s not the end. It’s the past. Both sides in the conflict should let go of the past. No more bombs from either sides. Both are killing mostly/entirely civilians. Both are fuelling decades of unrest to come.

[quote]
In any case, you cannot easily judge the past, or the actions of the past, with the understanding of today. Maybe you are too young to realize it, but standards of behavior and treatment change over time.[/quote] I sincerely would like you to elaborate on this. I don’t get you. Do you mean paradigm shifts in social behaviour/international relations? Or that ‘terrorism isn’t going to work any more’?

[quote]
I suggest you learn a little bit about war and conflict instead of simply focusing on the Middle East. The Middle East is merely the most disgusting form of violence currently on the planet, but it certainly isn’t anything new with respect to warfare. Oh, and if you don’t want everyone to think you are an assclown, and that may be too late, stop telling us that if we don’t agree with you that we are wrong.[/quote] I know, i hate myself for peacocking such ostentatious learning. But if my elders were speaking truth, fact and sense, instead of backwoods bullshit based on emotional rhetoric served via the medium of a congenital idiot who got into the most powerful office in the world through nepotism (deep breath) i’d be more agreeable, believe me. And humble. I’d just chat as an equal. If you can’t possibly see me as an equal despite the fcat that i’m ‘only’ 21, it’s no problem of mine.

Honestly, if you can’t prove your own intelligence and shrewdness to me, i care fuck-all about your estimation of me. I want to be seen as an idiot, by idiots. I only want truly wise people to see my intelligence, as accord. And usually i conceal my intelligence. I look rugged enough, and I have a 9 inch scar on my head, and several 3 inchers on my face by my eye/cheekbone. I let people think i’m simple. But when someone actually patronises me, if there’s no cause (of course i’m fallible) then i am insulted. And i’ll show them.

[quote]
I remember when I was young and got out of school and thought I knew everything… and that is what you sound like. Someone with no ability to integrate education with real world experience.

And no, I’m not patronizing you.[/quote]

Can anyone say ‘transference’? No, that’s not me. I don’t know everything. Science, maths, i’m quite shit at, and if you check my posts you’ll verify my humility in those areas. I’ve been in the workplace for 8 years, i’ve been to various places, lived in different cultures (social, racial) and i listed some shit i’ve done in my previous pompous thing a while ago. Just trust me. I know this shit, History (not all, but a fair bit).

Radical irrelevant theory of my own- real-world experience is corruption. Like Carlito said “nobody reforms, you just run out of steam. You can’t fight it forever.” I agree. While i have lived for less years on this planet, there are exceptions. I once worked in an old-peoples home, when i was 17, on my semi-year off, thinking i could do some good.
The old women all lifted heavy fat old people incorrectly, and all had bad backs. They would actually criticise me for deadlift-style lifting from the floor, using my whole legs etc. ‘No, just bend at the waist’ they’d say, and wouldn’t let me lift a 18stone ball of lazy old fat woman with a bad leg like i knew was right. I kept quiet, plotting my escape. One woman was actually the ‘healthy practice’ woman, who was expected to teach me, was a hunchback, and in the 2 months i worked there, actually gave up work FOREVER because of her bad back. What i see is a similar situation of assuming you’re right because i’m young. let’s not mention my age, literacy or world experience again.

I agree with vroom on the issue of moving towards the future. In a designated amount of time, everybody living on this planet at the present will be dead. Henceforth, all we say is in a sense inconsequential, as well as what we stand for and what not. It is thus truly more substantial what we’re going to create and pass down to our children, to hopefully improve upon the growing degredation of society on a global level.

It’s so ironic how much we can be engulfed in the past and yet we consistently make the same errors over and over, because all we do is bitch and moan over and over but nobody is willing to make the change. Yeah, the politics suck, the politicans suck more, they’re evil, etc. etc. We’ve all heard it before time and time again, well fucking do something about it. Stop voting democrat and republican, try something new, advocate something new, be something new - change is not evil, especially when things are how they are at the present time.

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable”

  • John F. Kennedy

[quote]vroom wrote:
SOME SILLY BULLSHIT

The future is waiting, whenever people get around to deciding they want to embrace it.

The past cannot be changed, but the future can be shaped. Guess how you and the Arabs of the Middle East are shaping the future today?[/quote]

I agree the future is there to be made. My contention taht i want no part in an empire, and that’s what’s happened/happening in Israel. oil money has been squandered. Why isn’t North America a utopia? ‘You had good land, and slaves to build the foundations.’ Back off, don’t be silly. You know better than to try some half-arsed shit like that.

The way i’m shaping the future? By being it. The future in Lebanon is debris-shaped. Teardrop shaped. Gun-shaped. i want peace out there if possible, but will not sink to the levels of fanaticism that armchair intolerant Americans on this board seem to feel. Anyone saying ‘nuke Iran’- join the army. Fuck off and inevitably die for your beliefs (death). I believe in life, and will trudge through the truly difficult concepts of reparation, mutual acceptance, progressive education and no further injustice to plant further grievance for my children’s generation to be conscripted to fight for.

I don’t benefit from a) arab oil ownership b) USA oil theft c) Israeli civilian casualties at any time, d) Arab civilian casualties at any time. These are factors that have no part in the peace deal. USA should fuck off and stop stealing, Arab states should stop squandering. Agreed?

What north American civilisation is too young to accept (unlike me! :wink: ) is that when you stop pissing everyone off unneccessarily (a la radicals in USA and Europe write about, i won’t waste my time listing, you know how corrupt USA is) Then they won’t have to sponsor a desperate religion’s last gasp at existence, which depends upon another religion’s submission/destruction.

If that’s ‘whinge whinge, boo hoo’- look at yourself. when did you cease being tolerant and liberal, and becoome a fascist vroom? 9/11?

[quote]MisterAmazing wrote:
It is thus truly more substantial what we’re going to create and pass down to our children, to hopefully improve upon the growing degredation of society on a global level.

It’s so ironic how much we can be engulfed in the past and yet we consistently make the same errors over and over, because all we do is bitch and moan over and over but nobody is willing to make the change. Yeah, the politics suck, the politicans suck more, they’re evil, etc. etc. We’ve all heard it before time and time again, well fucking do something about it. Stop voting democrat and republican, try something new, advocate something new, be something new - change is not evil, especially when things are how they are at the present time.

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable”

  • John F. Kennedy[/quote]

Fucking legend. Excellent post. Cool guy

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
I agree the future is there to be made. My contention taht i want no part in an empire, and that’s what’s happened/happening in Israel.[/quote]

This is where your train is leaving the tracks. You are buying into a global conspiracy to create an empire. What you are bitching about is a shift in the way humanity works, lives and trades amongst intself.

What’s really funny, is that nobody is really in control.

North America damned near is a utopia. All you have to do is let yourself be happy… and voila… you are there. It’s very easy to avoid strife and conflict over here. I’m not sure if you see only news clips of crimes and whatnot – but they don’t paint a picture of society.

You need to understand that a few people speaking in a heated manner don’t represent the views of everyone. You let that stuff affect your viewpoint too much, you give it too much credence.

Maybe if you tried to discuss things with reasonable people instead of countered war mongering with pacifism you’d have a better chance?

LOL. There has never been a time on this planet that younger generations were not conscripted to fight older mans wars. You aren’t arguing about what you think you are. You are arguing against human nature. It is not something that myopic idealism is going to shift.

You are out of your mind. I’d like you to try to find anything that sounds like modern day theft of resources. Now, there might be profits, but unless you are a communist, that is a far cry from theft. The US and everyone else pays the market price for oil. You sound like a complete idiot.

When you stop equating theft to lawful purchase of resources on the open market, I’ll start thinking you might have the tiniest clue about what is going on in the world.

LOL. You think politicians are not corrupt in every country? Again, you are crying about human nature. Any situation that places some people in power above others leads to abuses. The corruption in the US exists, just as it exists elsewhere. What you don’t see is that the fact that it is visible in the US means that it is caught and dealt with – in the public eye. Unlike much of the world, corruption is there, but it is seen to be corrected to the publics satisfaction. Somehow, I don’t think anything except the initial outcry makes the news that you are watching.

[quote]If that’s ‘whinge whinge, boo hoo’- look at yourself. when did you cease being tolerant and liberal, and becoome a fascist vroom? 9/11?
[/quote]

LOL. Man, you are such an idiot. I’ve been arguing that the US has done a knee-jerk reaction after 9/11 and that Iraq was a mistake. I don’t supposed you’d notice that.

I’ve been arguing against Bush and his administration with respect to loss of individual freedoms and the danger of losing what you have, what you are fighting for, in order to face the enemy.

Again, and again (the word is whine by the way), you continue to focus on some undefined evils in the western world and try to make them the personal responsibility of individuals.

Personal responsibility lies on the shoulders of those that would launch rockets at civilians in Israel. Personal responsibility lies on the shoulders of those who would place rocket launchers beside an apartment building.

Who is justifying such actions in this day and age? No ten years ago. Not twenty years ago. Today! Believe it or not, the way humanity has set things up, a country has the right to defend its citizens and to respond when attacked.

That you lament the loss of innocent lives in the region is good, but it doesn’t mean you get to repaint everything into bizarro world such that radical fundamentalist terrorists can ever be justified.

You rely too much on your newspaper and it obviously has an anti-American slant that you have fallen to believe. The US isn’t what you think it is, you sound like a complete idiot when you try to describe what you think is going on.

Speaking of facism, you twit, you’d be decrying the Allies for actually fighting against Germany. This is the side of the argument you have chosen to represent. You’d complain that civilians were dying in Germany when bombs were dropped in an attempt to destroy industrial facilities.

What you need to decide is whether or not there is a war. Then you need to decide who’s tactics are truly evil in this war. Then you need to firmly plant your ass on the right side of that question or simply live your life as a despicable piece of shit.

It’s up to you.